'Inasmuch as Beijing desires China to become an Asian geostrategic superpower with the territorial reach to match, it should realise that the rest of Asia comprises Sovereign states that will not tolerate grand Chinese imperialism'.

Yep, thank god for that, assuming there is one.

It's ironic that China's supposed 'imperialism' is condemned while the U.S., the world's biggest imperialist nation, spreads all over the world at will and few voices are raised in protest.

We, the gullible, servile people 'down under', are being programmed to accept one country's rampant rabid imperialism and reject the intentions of another power which simply needs more room to grow.

Hypocrisy it is called!

yeah sure david.

But why then is the concern by Asian neighbours with China?

Why is they want the US on their side?

"But why then is the concern by Asian neighbours with China?" asks Chris innocently!

Perhaps it's because the U.S. is stirring them up, Chris, telling them it will be on their side in any future war with China.

Wherever the U.S. goes, there is war and destruction followed by occupation. Have you ever realized this, Chris?

It’s boiled down to the fact that Non Democratic China is evil, no matter what China argues it is not believable. The West simply cannot accept that other country can prosper without adopting the Liberal Democracy system of government.
China will not wast times instead buying times. Let see how it looks in 10-20 years from now.
Maybe China will ‘implode’ as predicted 15 years ago? Then we are all living in peace and harmony with USA.

Given a choice between two sets of “rampant rabid imperialism”, most people would pick the US against China’s “intentions” any day.

Not that the America-haters need to worry too much about an Obama/socialist America anymore. The man is a totally against anything America once stood for, and that should be of huge concern to Australians. Obama cannot even run his own country, let alone the rest of the world.

Even with Republican presidents who claimed to uphold the American ‘way of life’, the US hasn’t won a military stoush since it was sent scuttling from Vietnam. And, the Republican Party is on the level of our own weak – and getting weaker – apology for a ‘conservative’ party, lead by a wimp.

Given the fact that all Australian politicians barely mention our defence these days, have actually cut back on defence spending, and seem more concerned about the sexual antics of a couple of defence force members, there are more important things for Australian to worry about than comparing another western country – which, at the very worst has no evil intentions against us – to one which is evil, full stop: China.

In any series of negotiations, it is critical to keep as many issues as possible "on the table", for as long a period as you can.

In my view, this is the predominant rationale behind the territorial claims being made by China. Whether I'm right or not, it would in any case be downright pointless for Beijing to turn around and say "ok fellas, you're right, we concede" at this stage. Why would they?

Territorial disputes like these are extremely handy negotiating points, because you actually don't have to do anything except a) fly over them once in a while and b) complain bitterly when the other side does the same.

All good, clean fun. And no-one gets hurt.

David G,

I'm sure China's neighbours are quite capable of making their own independent strategic assessments. If they support the US it's because they prefer the current American hegemony to the prospect of an authoritarian Chinese hegemony, better the Devil you know.
The current situation is similar to the Cold War, same game different players and also with the possibility of catastrophic miscalculations by either side. Freed from the suffocating influence of the Communist ideology China is a far more formidable rival to the US and SE Asia than than the Soviet Union ever was

Mac, far from suffocating their economy, the handling of the economy by the Chinese authorities, combining socialism with capitalism, has been remarkable! It has brought success to China despite its enormous population.

And don't forget that Australia is riding on the back of this success. And even America is relying on Chinese investment.

Keep in mind also that the U.S. is trying to gain control of the world. If you knew anything about the situation in America, you might see that this is not a good thing especially for the working and middle classes.

Australia should not allow itself to become a pawn of the U.S. We cannot afford to alienate all our neighbors especially China.

David G

"..far from suffocating their economy.." Yes, that's the point I was making.

"Keep in mind also that the U.S. is trying to gain control of the world." I doubt it, America is attempting to maintain its influence, although I don't agree with many US foreign policy decisions, American hegemony is better than the alternatives. Despite its many imperfections the US is a great democracy with a kindred culture, China isn't and its neighbours in Asia must be concerned as to whether or not the "Middle Kingdom" mentality has returned. The potential for Chinese revanchism, particularly in regard to Japan, is an alarming prospect.

"Australia should not allow itself to become a pawn of the U.S." agreed, however that doesn't mean we don't cooperate with the US when we have mutual strategic interests.

"Despite its many imperfections the US is a great democracy with a kindred culture," says Mac without a touch of irony.

Gee, Mac, what do you mean by a kindred culture? We don't have gun massacres every other day. We aren't bombing the crap out of other nations? We aren't trying to build up an army by punishing those on welfare, are we? We aren't claiming that we are 'exceptional' or 'the greatest nation in the history! We aren't building military bases everywhere, are we?

Kindred culture. Balls!

Mac,

Save your breath, DavidG is well past the point where any amount of reasoning or common sense can move him.

I don't think we have much to worry about from China. Actually, we should be more concerned about what people like DavidG might do if given half the chance!

China is emulating Nazi Germany in that it is now a totalitarian state that allows free enterprise and is extremely nationalistic. Conscious of its growing strength, it is now expanding its borders and acting aggressively.

Australia wants to build a new fleet of 12 submarines, ostensibly to protect us from Chinese expansionism. Why then are we allowing tens of thousands of Chinese to immigrate to Australia if we think that a war with China is possible? The idea that people completely forsake their national, cultural, and religious loyalties the moment they enter a western country blew up with the London Underground bombing.

If you think that war with another race is possible, allowing them to cross your moat and set up shop in your keep looks like insanity to me. Better to keep them away from your walls and start stacking stones on the ramparts.

SPQR and LEGO and other small-minded folk are spear-heading the new Hate-China brigade.

Yeah, the U.S. needs small-minded folks like them to enable its fear-inducing propaganda to spread across the world. The fear lubricates its 'Attack and Occupy' doctrine which, based on endless war, is aimed at gaining control of the whole world.

And one way to create fear is to create a bogey-man nation, like it once did with RUSSIA, then KOREA, then VIETNAM, followed by IRAQ, then by most of the Muslim nations in the Middle East. China is its new target!

And why does it want to control the world? Well, it loves the idea of having total power. Then it can gorge itself on all the world's resources and dominate world trade and turn sovereign nations everywhere into minions which it can bleed dry!

If the world is to ever experience peace, we have to stop hate-mongering. This will require intelligent people rather than the conga-line of mindless minions that believe anything they are told no matter how ridiculous it is.

China is not evil. Visit there and you'll find a happy people going about their lives the same as we do. The Chinese who live in Australia are model citizens who are not into terrorism because they're too involved with helping their kids to fit into Australian society.

Let's pour scorn on the mindless hate-mongers and encourage the peace-makers of which I'm one!

Reject hate. Show you have a brain!

Hi David,

Thanks for all your non sequiturs and tu quoque arguments.

There are disputes over bits of rock in the East and South China Seas. All other nations in the region are trying to maintain the status quo, while they negotiate with China. Only China is provoking other countries by occupying some of those bits, or driving out the fishing boats of other countries which have been using those areas for probably millenia, on the basis mainly that once upon a time, under the Mings or the Manchus, a Chinese ship may have visited some of those shoals.

Clearly China has a larger agenda, to claim all of those Seas as part of its national territory and bar any other claims, especially to the oil and gas underneath.

So they claim a shoal barely two hundred kilometres off the Philippine coast, and a thousand kilometres from China. Similarly the shoals down near Brunei and the southern Philippines.

On what grounds ? The good old arrogant, imperialist ones that once, one of their ships landed there. As usual, as good old imperialists, they ignore the well-known facts of inter-nation trade going back thousands of years, right across the region between the eastern Indian coast, the kingdoms of what is now Indonesia and Thailand, in fact right to Japan. There is an old Hindu temple near Manila, so are you suggesting that Filipino territory can be claimed by the current Indian government ?

Yes, that DOES sound completely silly, doesn't it ?

Actually, there was a mosque and a Hindu temple in Canton when Cheng Ho started out on his familiarisation journey with what was to the Chinese, an unfamiliar world, but one with which its component trading powers were long-familiar with. So should southern China be claimed by India and the Arab world ?

But let's not let history get in the way of power.

Joe

David G,

"And one way to create fear is to create a bogey-man nation, like it once did with RUSSIA,"

You really have a patronising attitude to the public in general, and commenters on this site, you apparently are the only person able to pierce the veil of US propaganda.

You really should choose your historical examples with much more care, the Soviet Union was one of history's great predators. Have you forgotten the Berlin Wall, the Eastern Bloc, the Gulags, the millions killed and oppressed by the Soviet regime? I'm old enough to remember the Cold War and believe me, I didn't need American propaganda to convince me that the regime was a threat. I have no idea what the future holds for our region, however your eulogising of China and designation of America as the "Great Satan" is particularly daft.

I and others, have pointed out that China, in contrast to the fantasies of its apologists, has a history of imperial expansion like any other Great Power.

The debate has nothing to do with "good" and "evil".

A disappointing comment from you, Loudmouth.

The nation that is trying to write the contemporary history of the world is the U.S. And it is using brute force to do it. It sticks its nose into virtually every conflict as it is doing by flying planes into the Chinese zone. Of course Britain has its claws into the Falklands and The Rock in Spain. The U.S. has its claws everywhere!

The future of the world relies upon a change of thinking, Loudmouth. We've been locked into the historic war paradigm for far too long. The idea of nations dominating other nations is barbaric. The building of a huge army by the Americans so they can bully the world is the same as that of Hitler when he made his grab for world domination.

And power corrupts as the U.S. clearly shows with its spying, its rendition and torture, its use of depleted uranium and phosphorous munition and Agent Orange and napalm, its putting people in cages, its non-involvement in the World Court. It stands for nothing anymore!

What is required is a new way of thinking, a new breed of people who reject war completely, who see it for what it is: a barbaric process that keeps humans locked into a pointless cycle of death and destruction.

I would've thought you would've been at the forefront of such a change, Loudmouth, rather than joining the discordant chorus of Flat Earthers that hang around OLO like jackals around a lion kill!

David,

Well, it's not 'the Chinese zone' yet. But China's provocative actions have made that area near the Senkaku/Diaoyou Islands a region of concern to any country whose lances, or whose nationals, may be flying in that zone. How does a commercial plane fly to Taiwan now, or to South Korea, except by flying across that 'zone' ?

I'm sure the US currently has a border disagreement with some other country at the moment, perhaps Canada or Mexico, or Cuba. But it hasn't aggravated the situation by declaring to be its own what the rest of the world regards as uncontroversial territory, land or sea that its planes can fly over from point A to point B without worrying about being shot down.

Imperialism is an outmoded evil, whether it is Manchu or American or Ruritanian. Either way, China has no special right to inflame international situations. It has no particular right to be imperialist - it's not a game in which big nations take turns. The Manchus have not had any claim on those islands near Taiwan since the 1890s. Or should we go along with reviving every absurd claim of every erstwhile empire ?

You may support Chinese (or rather, Manchu) imperialism, David, but it's not that kind of world any more. It's a world of multiple sovereignty, of big and small nations, and of diplomacy. Your big friend should get used to it.

Let's reject the threat of war completely :)

Joe

"Let's reject the threat of war completely," says Loudmouth.

Now you're talking real sense. War is a pet project of a few who control most of the world's wealth. While other die, they enrich themselves.

To change the world, we have to change the Caveman-thought process which is in vogue. The only way we can do that is to change how we bring us our kids, what we teach them.

Greed and inequality must be seen as a crime against humanity. It is not right that a few live in obscene luxury while many other starve.

War must be seen as an obscenity. Nations which engage in wars must be punished. The world belongs to all the people who live on it, not those who have bigger clubs than anyone else.

If we don't change our thinking, a nuclear holocaust or global warming awaits us. Neither is far away. Time is of the essence.

Cavemen are out. Neo-humans are in!

Get with the in-crowd while there is still time.

My sister tells me Julie Bbishop looked wonderful in her outfit when she met with the Chinese the other day. Am no judge on womens fashions. But she tells me Jules shouldn't wear pants, poor form, Tony wears the pants!!

While your "bogey man" nation, DavidG, is the USA.

The USA has, since the end of the second world war, been the leader and the military protector of the free world. You remember the free world, don't you David G? That is that part of the world where you want to live in. The rest of the world ruled by totalitarian fruitcakes thinks exactly like you do, and that is where you most definitely do not want to live. It always amazes me that intellectually challenged people like yourself never tire of condemning the very places which have given their populations freedoms unprecedented in human history, while always going into to bat for the worst regimes on the planet.

As for your assertion that "China is not evil", you may be right there. It's a pity you can't make the same connection to the USA. Might it be fair to say that every nation can act in it's own self interest? But as for the Chinese government intentions, start making comparisons with Nazi Germany to consider the validity of the threat.

Authoritarian government? Tick. State control of industries while allowing some free enterprise? Tick. Extremely racist government (which even preaches to its high school kids that Chinese did not evolve from African blacks)? Tick. And finally, the declaration of territorial claims on its smaller neighbours (including areas of seabed completely outside of the geographical location of their country.) Tick.

As for Chinese wanting to be "Australians". The Chinese are noted for creating Chinese only ghettoes in every country they inhabit. There are "Chinatowns" in every major city on Earth. The Chinese only want to live among Chinese. That is racism which people like you never notice. One Chinese even wrote a best seller about the Chinese living in Australia. Do you know what its title was? "Among the Barbarians."

Since you hate rich people and patriots, could I tell you right now that the "overseas Chinese" are the richest people on the planet and they are super patriots to their country. No matter where they live, that country is China

It's sad really, that Cavemen like LEGO exist. While they do, the world will never change, war and greed will never stop, and the end of our world will be caused by a nuclear holocaust unless climate change gets in first.

It seems that the bulk of humans cannot escape their indoctrination once it is established. They become like flesh-clad robots, incapable of reason. They are conditioned as Skinner so clearly revealed, conditioned by those pulling the strings: the rich, the Corporations, the ruling elite.

And one thing that Cavemen hate is anyone who comes along and questions the system they have been conditioned to accept without question. It makes Cavemen uncomfortable. They wave their clubs about and grunt ferociously but they can't get their tiny minds around the fact that the world could be very different, much better, much fairer.

What is it that makes some of us capable of escaping our conditioning, allows us to see what a shambles the world is, how it is filled with gross inequality and injustice, how it could be a thousand times better?

I suppose it depends on whether you're on the right side of the ledger, whether the capitalist system where might is right, where the most cunning and greedy prevail, has been kind to you.

But the threat of, the reality of, global warming and nuclear war will take out the most dedicated Cavemen but they, poor things, can't see it.

They are too busy visiting Harvey Norman and working out how they can buy a Mercedes or a MacMansion!

A touch of ad hominem there, David :)

What are the issues ? Yes, the US yada yada, but in this case, what are the issues ?

China and Japan both claim a clump of rocky islands north-east of Taiwan. The islands have been under Japanese control since they seized them from the Manchu Empire in the 1890s. The Manchu Empire was officially overthrown by the October Revolution in 1910 and the setting up of a Republic in China.

In international disputes like this, surely the best course is diplomacy, negotiations and peaceful resolution if possible ? But what does China do ? It declares what has yet to be decided, that it already has authority to impose restrictions on the air space over those islands and a lot more territory besides, so that any planes flying into South Korea, or between Taiwan and Japan, have to seek approval first. Such unilateral action is not conducive to peaceful resolution.

Clearly the Chinese have a larger agenda, of declaring both the East China Sea and the South China Sea to be their national waters, right up to the edge of the Philippines and Malaysia, for Christ's sake, not to mention into Vietnamese waters as well. Not the agenda of a peaceful nation, I'm sure you would agree.

So the rationale for all of the small nations of South-East Asia, in order to protect their clear and manifest interests, will be to co-operate more closely, to keep the international waters of those Seas international, as it always has been.

Unless of course, David, we accept the imperialist rationale, that 'big' means' 'more national rights' than those piddly little countries should have.

Surely we should oppose imperialism wherever it raises its ugly head ? Wouldn't you agree ?

Cheers,

Joe

DavidG has an interesting neurosis

People like David think that they can solve all of the world's problems. Their collective mindset is that human beings are intelligent, therefore it is possible to create some sort of social order which will create a war, poverty and crime free world.

This was the promise which the Socialists once claimed to be their own. The problem was that Socialism did nothing more than create countries which were giant prison camps with bankrupt economies. In some cases the Socialist countries did well. The USSR could create a scientifically advanced space program even when their people queued for bread. But in the end, the Socialist countries had to admit that a free market economy had the real advantage. So today, only bankrupt Cuba and wacko North Korea still advocate this economic lunacy.

People like DavidG are horrified that their socialist dream turned into a totalitarian nightmare. They still think socialism could work. If it had not ben for those damned Americans, just one more five year plan would have done it. Incensed at the failure of their dream, and unable to accept that their dream was a mirage, they instead reserve their criticism those which most opposed this economic lunacy.

Therefore, their collective hatred is directed towards the USA, who was the leader of the free world, who fought against their dream world ideology, and who's advocacy for free market economies was proven right all along.

The problem that David has is that he is smart enough to know that his socialist ideology is rubbish. But he believes it is the only hope for humankind. Despite its glaring imperfections IT HAS TO WORK. So he will keep on advocating the adoption of self evident failure because he sees no alternative.

Joe, in your honest way you are trying to address the situation. But the situation is not simply about a regional argument over some islands in the South-East Asian region but about the U.S trying to contain China, strangle it if possible. Why is it doing this? The U.S. is desperately afraid that it is slipping off the top perch in the same way that Russia did. What an irony, eh?

That the U.S. flew fighter jets into the zone then followed it up with Boeing submarine hunters, though deliberately provocative, is just madness. What if the Chinese had used retaliatory force? But then China is a thousand times smarter than America which thinks that dropping bombs on other nations is the only way to address geo-political conflicts and grab scarce resources.

Then the world knows that the Cuban Crisis showed the world that the U.S. is power-mad, is prepared to take chances, ones that could end our world.

Joe, we have to become more aware of the fascist American agenda which is global domination. We have to look at the U.S. as it has become not as it once was. To know what its agenda is can be clearly seen by its actions, not by its duplicitous rhetoric. You don’t need 1,000 military bases if peace is your motive!

Joe, there will be nuclear conflict between the U.S. and China and America will initiate it before China gets too powerful. Backing America in this situation is crazy. It is hated by too many nations in the world. And if you followed ICH, you’d know that America is riven with problems: social, economic, political, etc. Nuclear war will produce no winners, Joe, but try and convince the Yanks of that!

P.S. LEGO, King of the Cavemen. I’m sorry that you are victim of your own indoctrination. It’s not my fault! After the nuclear holocaust, I might meet you in a cave somewhere. You’ll be the one waving still waving the Stars and Stripes!

David G said;
Reject hate. Show you have a brain!

Does that include hatred of the US ?
Gawd, what a dh.

As far as I know there are no proven oil deposits in the South China
Sea but there are reports suggesting there is oil there.
However, China notwithstanding the opinion of others that peak oil is
not real, does believe peak oil is real and has been for years buying
up any oil field it could lay hands on.
China, justifiably, is terrified of peak oil & coal.

Not content with claiming everyone else's islands just to get the
200 NM economic zone around them, they want to claim the whole Sth China Sea.

The "Nine Dotted Sth China Sea Claim" was submitted to the UN in 2009.
It was rejected by the Philippines and presumably others.
This area runs down the west coast of the Philippines.
It is total arrogance.

If this is not Imperialism on a massive scale tell me what is ?

A rather naïve take on a new player in the superpower stakes David G. If you don't like the USA, the don't buy a single thing manufactured or owned by a US company, starting from today!

The Chinese are fully cognisent (sic) of their actions! its called expansionism, you might not like it. This is up to you. Perhaps as you feel threatened, go live in China and leave our shores. no am not being xenophobic, racist or anything else for that matter other than being pragmatic on your behalf.

The centralist Chinese Govt wants to spread its wings, or influence across the South Pacific. Bit like India in the cricket, they have more people, more money so they want to rule the show except the show is garbage! In China's case, what they want, we don't.

LEGO, Baaaaaaaaaaaaazzzz, Very Curious, I'm sorry that you don't get it. Most Australians don't. They, like you, are caught in a 1945 time-warp.

The problem is that the U.S. has changed since ww2. Didn't you notice? They put together a massive army. They started attacking other countries whose values and policies were different to theirs. They hid their aggressive imperialism behind duplicitous slogans about standing for human rights and freedoms and democracy while they supported all manner of despots and supplied arms to everyone.

And now, with their military bases spread across the world and their armies and navies ensconced in every sky and ocean, they are close to achieving global domination.

But the unbelievable happened. They ran out of money same as Russia did. And they over-extended their military reach, And people, at least some, woke up to what they were doing while they were on their endless-war, killing-millions spree. And China began to get its act into gear.

So we heard about 'pivots' and soon Australia, poisoned by our political sycophants, joined other countries and soon found its soil polluted by the American Military who are using us just like they use most other countries in the world to advance their self-interests.

The inevitable nuclear conflict between the U.S. and China will occur unless the U.S. goes bankrupt first. China is fighting to achieve its potential while the U.S. tries desperately to crush it.

We know from Nagasaki and the Cuban Missile Crisis the depths that America will go to to achieve its selfish ambitions.

The world has a clear choice: bring the U.S. into line or face nuclear devastation that will render life on Earth impossible.

So crawl out of your cave and leave your flat-earth beliefs behind and work to save our world from the most dangerous ROGUE nation on Earth: AMERICA!

P.S. Perhaps being incarcerated without trial in a cage or water-boarded appeals to you?

"The diminishment of Russia as a powerful state is critical to Washington’s agenda for world hegemony. If Russia can be rendered impotent, Washington’s only concern is China.

The Obama regime’s “Pivot to Asia” announced Washington’s plan to surround China with naval and air bases and to interject Washington into every dispute that China has with Asian neighbors. China has responded to Washington’s provocation by expanding its air space, an action that Washington calls destabilizing when in fact it is Washington that is destabilizing the region.

China is unlikely to be intimidated, but could undermine itself if its economic reform opens China’s economy to western manipulation. Once China frees its currency and embraces “free markets,” Washington can manipulate China’s currency and drive China’s currency into volatility that discourages its use as a rival to the dollar."

These few words were written by Paul Craig Roberts a day ago and the article they came from can be located on ICH.

PCR is an American who has held very senior positions in the American Government.

His website can be found at http://paulcraigroberts.org

Sorry, the name of the article was:

"Defeated By The Taliban, Washington Decides To Take On Russia And China"

By Paul Craig Roberts

For those who haven't cotton-on to it yet. DavidG's other nom de plume is Arjay.

Either that, or we have the first clear cut evidence that someones been dabbling at human cloning.

David,

For the sake of this thread, i.e. Chinese aggression against its neighbours, the US, or the passing of Mr Mandela, or the shooting in the face of 16-year-old Malala Yousafzai by your friends in Pakistan, or new cures for cancer, or whether Joe Blow kicks his dog, are irrelevant - the issue is what is going on in the East and South China Seas.

How to resolve such disputes peacefully - that should be the concern. China's actions have seriously destabilised that situation, and the suspicion is that China is ultimately out to claim all of the East and South China Seas as its imperial territory. Yes ? No ?

That's the game going on at the moment, although on the next paddock may well be one involving US perfidy and ambition - or where Joe Blow kicks his dog, for that matter. Start up another thread if you want to talk about the evil US.

Someone mentioned China and socialism in the same sentence, rather inappropriately, I thought. We have now had a hundred years of fill-blown 'socialism', 140 years if you want to go back to the Paris Commune of March 1871, which Marx despaired over. That's a lot of failed experiments since then, David - has anything worked as it was planned ? And please don't say 'No, because of the evil actions of the US.' What would you expect, they're capitalists ? And, after all, socialism (except perhaps the new Chinese version) declares its open intention to tear it down. As an ex-socialist, I have to conclude that socialism has failed because of its own internal flaws. And reality surely has to trump ideology ?

Perhaps you are partly right in that this dispute is peripherally a struggle between two imperialisms. A pox on both of them.

Joe

You finally cut to the chase in your last sentence, Joe.

The U.S. has enriched itself by bullying and killing and destroying and bribing and corrupting across the world. That it now is trying to stop China following in its footsteps demonstrates the gross hypocrisy of the Americans.

The world cannot afford a nuclear war. That is the truth that every nation in the world has to accept. Once that truth is accepted, the next step is to prevent it ever happening.

That can only be achieved by the destruction of all nuclear weapons and the standing down of all armies and the destruction of all weaponry and those companies who manufacture weapons.

The Caveman period has to come to an end. We have to use what intelligence we have to set up a new political and economic system, one that does not lavishly reward the warmongers and the greedy but rewards equality and justice and cooperation and peace.

The choice is stark. Change yourselves or become extinct!

Perhaps I did too, David - when are you going to get there ?

Joe

And what economic system is that, David G?

It is clear that communism is not an appropriate economic/social system and neither is capitalism. Capitalism leads to exploitation, greed and financial inequality (and the spectre of endless war) while Communism fails because it relies on mass subservience and belief in a selfless ideology.

But there are aspects of both extreme systems that, if cobbled together and subjected to strong control, could provide an answer that would lead to peace.

A strong, no-exceptions, punitive tax system would help to control the insatiable greed which appears to be part of human nature. That could be combined with developing a human mindset that we are all responsible for our brothers and sisters across the world and, if poverty exists, we are all responsible and we must deal with it.

Of course, war needs to be condemned and nations armed to the teeth must be deprived of their weapons and the Corporations that make them, closed down.

Share markets must also be destroyed along with Banks and Billionaires. Being rich must be shown for what it is: a crime against humanity because, in our world today, for every rich person there are thousands of people living in poverty! Where is the justice in that?

Imperialism must be stopped but if humans can be shown another way, it would stop of its own accord.

Imagine if you can a world where peace reigned. It has been dreamed about for 10,000 years but our primitive, barbaric nature has prevailed.

If we don't change ourselves we will soon be extinct.

Is that what you want?

P.S. Instead of knocking me and my suggestions, why don't you think about what I am proposing. It sure beats being vaporized in a nuclear holocaust!

Wow, that's such a high horse, David :)

I'm suggesting that all parties pull back and seek to negotiate, preferably through some recognised international body.

There is some space between that approach and 'being vaporized in a nuclear holocaust', wouldn't you say ? But keep pushing your argumentum in extremis, it must be great fun, even if it dodges the issues.

Joe

Joe, I didn't associate you with the Cavemen or the Flat Earthers.

Throwing in a few pretentious Latin words doesn't remove the reality of a fast-approaching nuclear holocaust, doesn't sweep it away.

The U.S. is already positioning itself to take on China while it only has one aircraft carrier. Yeah, a combo of Japan, South Korea, perhaps the Philippines plus Britain and Australia will form and begin to restrict exports to China especially minerals that could make weapons. That will prove costly to us, but then, Australia worships the U.S. and, if pressed, will do whatever it is told.

China will try to fight back but it is not ready to fight although if RUSSIA and INDIA joined it, that might prove interesting.

Joe, the U.S. is determined to gain global control. Its fanaticism and nationalistic delusions resembles that of Israel. The U.S. will use nukes if it thinks that it will achieve its purposes just as it would've over Cuba.

BBBBAAAAAAAAAMMMMMM!

Latin phrases don't stand a chance! And neither will most Australians because our beautiful land may well be where the war is fought given that we are a craven pawn of the U.S. already.

I don't imagine that those who live on the mainland of U.S. or China want to become involved to that extent.

David, the easiest way not to have a war is not to start one. China has to pull back, not provoke the other countries, and let the matters be decided in international courts.

Sorry, mate, your warmongering friends are not going to get it all their own way.

Better to jaw-jaw than to war-war, someone said.

Joe

Problem is that America doesn't recognize International Courts or Institutions, Joe, doesn't count civilian casualties, and, in general, throws its weight around like it already owns the world.

Like Israel, it has put itself above all nations and institutions and now thinks its ordure doesn't stink!

Hard to discuss peace with a greedy amoral nation that is in love with itself and with war, Joe, that makes money from war, gains resources from war, and doesn't care how many millions of innocent people it kills as it seeks total power!

Is it doing so in this situation, David ? Who is throwing their weight around in this situation ? Who is acting like they think they own that part of the world ? And what 'millions' are you talking about these days, or are you just using the word to scare small children ?

Imagine a similar, but hypothetical situation: a coral atoll near the Solomons was visited by a ship from Australia in about 1824, therefore that atoll is really Australian territory. The Solomons doesn't think so, and has administered that unpopulated atoll since Independence. But Australians know that that atoll is really an unalienable and beloved part of our ancestral territory, and we long to bring it back into our national bosom. The Solomons, most unreasonably, refuse to recognise Australia's claim to it, our beloved island home, so Australia declares a 200-mile flight-exclusion zone around it, as part of our national territory, and demands that flights to and from the Solomons, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and some to New Zealand, must seek and gain Australian permission.

Let's take it one more step: an Air New Zealand plane flies into Australia's exclusion zone and is shot down. New Zealand, quite unreasonably, calls in our High Commissioner, and expels Australia's entire diplomatic mission. In justified retaliation, Australia bombs Auckland and sinks half of its Navy in Auckland Harbor.

I hope the Chinese aren't stupid enough to go that far, but who knows ? Imperial powers are not known for their acuity.

Does this sound remotely familiar, David ?

Joe

US war-murdered 20-30 million since WW2: arrest today’s War Criminals
Posted on April 2, 2012 by Carl Herman

"US covert and overt criminal Wars of Aggression caused 20-30 million deaths of human beings since World War 2, according to the outstanding documentation of James Lucas of Countercurrents.org. The US use/support of armed attacks is documented in 37 countries, and in direct violation of treaties after both world wars (Kellogg-Briand and UN Charter) to forever end armed attacks unless first attacked by another nation’s government.

The end of this gruesome and psychopathic history of armed attacks and war-murders in the Orwellian names of unalienable rights and freedom will end upon the demand of enough in the 99% to arrest the obvious current War Criminals."

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/us-war-murdered-20-30-million-since-ww2.

P.S. I don't tell lies, Joe!

Says Mr Herman.

And how many in the name of socialism, David ? In the Soviet gulags ? The Chinese laogais ? Under the Khmer rouge ? In the brilliant socialist experiments in Ethiopia, Congo, Angola, dare I say it Vietnam ?

And what would that have to do with the current dispute between the heirs to the Manchu Empire, and Japan, not to mention China and socialist Vietnam, and China and the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia ? Or between the US and China, for that matter ?

If we could dispense with conspiracies and horror stories about nuclear obliteration for a moment, what are the issues ? China and Japan are in dispute over some islands, just as South Korea and Japan are over some other islands. How is Japan or South Korea handling their ends ? How is China handling its end ? Who is pushing the envelope ? Is this conducive to world peace ?

The South-East Asian countries must be watching the new aggression by China very closely: their turn, they must be thinking, is coming. The Manchu Triceratops is threatening to trample on their grass as if it had some divine right to do so.

And then blame the Yanks if anything goes wrong. Good trick.

Joe