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The Forum > Article Comments > Protecting the weak: put an air and sea carbon levy back on the table > Comments

Protecting the weak: put an air and sea carbon levy back on the table : Comments

By Jack Bennetto, published 27/11/2013

Global greenhouse gas emissions continue to soar with little constraint, yet if countries continue to coast with unambitious reduction commitments we are on track for 3 to 4 degrees of dangerous warming.

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Curmudgeon
Typhoon haiyan hit the land with sustained winds of 315 KPH ( more than 10 mins) compared to cyclone Yasi which only managed 205 KPH . That makes Haiyan 3.6 times more powerful than Yasi. You simple can not compare the two.

Hasbeen
The poles lose heat far more quickly than the equator and no mater what you do that is not going to change anytime soon. This means that we can not predict that a warmer world will have less weather. The crucial point is that a warmer world will have higher rates of evaporation which in turn adds huge amounts of energy to the atmosphere. If I remember correctly you said you had done a fair amount of sailing well I prefer my sailing in 3 dimensions and we stay well clear of thunderstorms which are capable generating updraughts of 5000 ft per min or more, the source of these fantastic updraughts is condensing moisture.
Posted by warmair, Wednesday, 27 November 2013 4:05:33 PM
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Cohenite
Your links are not credible sources of information.
Quote
People who argue that the Philippine's typhoon was due to AGW are idiots
End quote

People who fail to understand the point that higher sea surface temperatures lead to more severe storms really are not very bright .
Posted by warmair, Wednesday, 27 November 2013 4:37:36 PM
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Whether increased atmospheric water levels, specific humidity, SH, amplify temperature through feedback is problematic given that the more SH there is the more clouds form and clouds are a negative feedback acting to cool warming.

But as Miskolzi's work and the data conclusively shows SH is decreasing and therefore it cannot be argued that there is more SH available to fuel cyclones; see:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/327/5970/1219.abstract

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-11-00003.1

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/papers/Pierce_et_al_AIRS_vs_models_2006GL027060.pdf

http://www.klimatupplysningen.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/paltridgearkingpook.pdf

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c017ee7c6621a970d-pi

Miskolzi 2010 at page 243:

http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/uploads/media/EE_21-4_paradigm_shift_output_limited_3_Mb.pdf

It is also the case that evaporation has declined in recent years:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022169411007487

This really refutes any attempt to proffer SH as the AGW mechanism in combination with CO2; and with water CO2's heating capacity is minute and exhausted at 300ppm.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 27 November 2013 4:54:37 PM
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Here we go again !
Worrying about the wrong problem.
Jack Benneto, the global warming panic is so last decade.

There is not enough fossil fuel available to reach the most benine of
the IPCC's three projections.
If the cost of fossil fuels rises faster then expected the earth may
not reach even that lower level.

Have a look here;
http://aleklett.wordpress.com/
The link I had to the Global Energy Systems Group at Upsalla University
has disappeared from my browser, but google should find it.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 27 November 2013 5:41:33 PM
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cohenite
There is ample evidence that rainfall, river flows, and cloud cover have increased overall, nevertheless you are correct in pointing out the pan evaporation rates have declined world wide over land. This has is often referred to as the Evaporation Paradox.
It is has been thoroughly investigated and is quite well summed up below
http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home98/nov98/paradox.html
And in detail here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/human-dimensions/staff/tbrown/trends_pan_evap_actual_et_conterminous_us.pdf

Quote
But as Miskolzi's work and the data conclusively shows SH is decreasing and therefore it cannot be argued that there is more SH available to fuel cyclones; see:
end Quote

The formation of a typhoon or cyclone only takes place over the ocean and requires water temperatures to exceed 26.5C degrees. The higher the water temperature the more powerful the storm. The reason the Philippines typhoon was so powerful was due to the fact that the surrounding sea temperatures were around the 30c. The technical reasons are here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_cyclone#Maximum_Potential_Intensity

Your comment is based on the premiss that lower evaporation is taking place over the land (doubtful) and in any event is not relevant
Posted by warmair, Thursday, 28 November 2013 9:41:12 AM
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warmair
I thought you might try to come back with the objection that the Philippines typhoon was stronger that Yasi. In fact the Philippines typhoon was about the same force as Tracy.. I was quoting Yasi as an example of just how changes in building codes effect structure survival, not as a comparison.. if stronger storms hit an area then you need stronger building codes, and if worse comes to worse you can have storm cellars built into houses as they do in the American mid-west in case of twisters, which are the ultimate.. forget typhoons. sorry but you're grasping at straws in an effort to rescue your argument.. income and building codes is far more important in these matters than any efforts to cut emissions. Your solution in fact would directly harm the people you are trying to help.
Posted by Curmudgeon, Thursday, 28 November 2013 9:56:47 AM
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