i/wish..we could comprehend..each other better
but..the reason..we chose one word..or the other..is what confounds

see..we think..to know each/other
and..im..not seeing..a lot of peter..in..these words

anyhow..<<..Natural/theology,../edited/..the attempt>>

by..atheists?
by..theists?

<<..to derive..the existence..and actsof God..from n..ature.>>

now..im not sure..you have biased..
what..you/wrote..that they think..BUT*
but..its/not..even..logical..

DERIVE*=originate..and
existence=[the state..or..the way]..of existing

exist=having..objective-reality..[or being]

then..tack/on..
<<acts..of god>>..=
[which..includes..being/cause..of all-existence]

<<from/nature?>>
[the fruits of..all gods causation..creations..of being]

no..sorry..it doth not/compute
whats the question?

<<Natural-theology,..as the name implies,..is the attempt
to..derive..the existence...and acts of God..from nature.>>

god..*as supreme/cause
must*..have..had some hand..in it..
even/if he only created..perfect/eternal/heaven

and we..by the fall..created..this earthy/realm..
[we ARE..[E]-*CO_CREATORS]

[as im..trying to..sort out/here..by myself.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#17685

jesus SAID..this is satans realm
thus this realm..was FORMED..by satan/thus*
he has rights..of creator..[like we all do*][over our*own/creation]

god didnt..create/hell..nor earth
hell is when men..seek a plaCE AWAY/FROM..the light..[heaven]
and earth..is the sorting/place..here we sort the purists[heaven]..from the lovers of sin..[hell]

for..now we are sorting/out..ourselves
in time..we all draw/back,,into heaven
[then yet again..the fall..and with a big bang..it all begins again]

the expansion..of the universe..is symptomatic..of us..rejecting others..in time..we draw together..and the uni*verse..begins to shrink

till yet again..we attain..the atonement[at-one-meant]

<<The logic is simple...If God was the creator>>

well..he..isnt..[not directly..but its his projection..of the fallen..that saw this ,material projection..in-formed..intobbeing

so..it may have been his saying of be..and it was
but more likely..the fallen aNGEL-SAYING IF.IM NOT IN PRISON.[here..IN HEAVEN]..PROVE IT..ALLOW ME..TO MAKE MINE OWN..earthy/haven]

in..and of the light/looping..into strings
<<of the world>>..frozen energy..[e]=has mass..it you have less mass..you stand..upon the heavier mass[enough mass creates a black/hole]..regardless

<<then when we look at the world
we see the works of his fingers>>

yes..our bodies..are much..like his fingers/hairs..etc[see swedenberg/grand-man]

<<i.e...the order.;.that we see..in the world
is an order..imposed by God.>>

and the disorder..by the extended fingers [creations[..of man[co0creators]

<<Or as William Paley..in 1802 surmised,>>

not..summation..is a god[good]..quality

<<if you found..a watch in the field
one would ask..about the watchmaker...>>

not really..first i would see in..gods cloud/mind..all watches
then ask..is this a watch..then..god would ask..does it work
only.if its broken..need i call for its creator..to fix it

The logic is simple.BUT*.

The above is natural theology from metaphysically obtuse deliverances of C17th new physics. E.A Burtt gives the definitive account in ‘The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Natural Science’(internet archive)

"No one in the learned world could be found
to save the brilliant mathematical victories over the
realm of physical motion, and at the same time lay
bare the big problems involved in the new doctrine
of causality, and the inherent ambiguities in the tentative,
compromising, and rationally inconstruable form
of the Cartesian dualism that had been dragged along
like a tribal deity in the course of the campaign."

Any search of Edward Feser's blog for 'Paley' 'mechanical philosophy' etc will help too. E.g http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/materialist-shell-game.html (Remember: natural philosophy/science begins and ends in the senses, there will be a problem with your philosophy of nature if it denies the reality of the deliverances of the senses! as reductive mathematical physics as the entirety of natural philosophy does)

For historical colour: Newton knew what he was doing, as a natural philosopher but his disciples and for political reasons, we centuries later find, there are none now who remember it

“Those violate the accuracy of language
which ought to be kept precise, who interpret
these words [space, place and motion] for the
measured quantities. Nor do those less defile
the purity of mathematical and philosophical
truths, who confound real quantities with their
relations and sensible measures.

Moreover since body is here proposed for
investigation not insofar as it is a physical
*substance endowed with sensible qualities* but
only insofar as it is extended mobile and
impenetrable I have not defined it in a
*philosophical manner* but abstracting from
sensible qualities I have postulated only the
properties needed for local motion so that
instead of physical bodies you may understand
abstract figures in the same way they are
considered by geometers when they assign motion
to them."


Some links
http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/FR93202.HTM
http://thomism.wordpress.com/ (BERQUIST links sidebar)

Happy to learn author makes pivotal error, not intellectually dishonest. Less said about obscenity of Christian atheism the better.

I must be living in a different world to that of JonJ when he claims that the greens have enormous power and the naturalistic religious fundamentals do not.
How many powerful think-tanks do the greens operate either in Australia or world-wide?
Do the greens have anything like ALEC http://www.alecexposed.org

The IPA is the source of the market-rules-fundamentalist ideology that drives the various agendas of the new government, many/most of which are agin anything with a green tinge.
Many of the IPA propaganda hacks subscribe to and promote the reductionist one dimensional anti-Spiritual naturalist religiosity that Peter described in his essay. And the triumph of the West (and Christianity too) hubristic historicism too.
Many of the members of the new government, including some cabinet ministers are conservative or right-wing Christians, including "catholic".
George Pell, who is Tony Abbott's "spiritual" mentor is well known for being agin the "pagan green religion". George is of course closely associated with both the IPA and the CIS. He attends their various gab-fests.
Most of the powerful right-wing USA think tanks are strongly influenced by the same kind of reductionist anti-Spiritual religiosity.
All of which to say that the fundamentalist religion that Peter wrote about is well and truly alive both here in Australia, and world-wide too.
The truth about the monstrous Edward Feser who some people pretend is a source of wisdom.
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2011/01/1285-edward-feser.html

Thomistic metaphysics is a load of pretentious, entirely speculative and pernicious horse-manure, the purpose of which is power-and-control, not Love. Indeed it has nothing whatsoever to do with Love.

Speaking of so called metaphysics and the nature of Reality the author of the references below on the nature of Reality seldom if ever uses the word metaphysics. References which are profoundly critical of the conceits/delusions of the conventional Spirit and life killing left-brained mind in both its secular and so called "religious" forms.
In His 2,000 page Magnum Opus The Aletheon (The Truth Book) the word metaphysics only appears once in the extensive index, referring to these lines:
"There IS NO separate self - and, therefore, "IT" as such is not reducible to what is physical and NOT enlargable to what is metaphysical.
The metaphysical presumptions of "religion", and otherwise metaphysical "philosophy", are, relative to the mind created sense of separate "self", inherently and self-evidently false."

http://www.dabase.org/Reality_Itself_Is_Not_In_The_Middle.htm
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-7.htm
http://www.consciousnessitself.org
http://spiralledlight.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/4068
http://www.aboutadidam.org/newsletters/toc-february2004.html

The last reference is very much about the origins of the Spirit-killing naturalistic world-view, and the "culture" of death which it has created in its image.
It also points out that conventional religion is incapable of producing an effective counter to this situation because it shares the same reductionist presumptions about what we are as human beings. And more importantly the MERE ideas proposed by such conventional religiosity are unacceptable or incapable of being accepted by the feeling-heart or the feeling psychic core of our existence-being.

I have no time for the blend of neo-pagan Gaia worship and Green ideology taught as “eco-spirituality” in some theology faculties, but I think Peter goes too far in his dismissal of “natural theology”. His insistence that nothing in human reason or experience can point us to the existence of God flies in the face of biblical witness.

Romans 1 warns against worshipping the creation not the creator, but also says God’s is “understood and seen through the things he has made.” The psalms, the prophets, Job and of course Genesis all have God’s role as creator as central. This language is poetic and allusive. I am not arguing for biblical literalism, a seven-day creation or the pseudo-science of much of the “intelligent design” movement. But between the extremes of Deism and “eco-spirituality” there are intelligent and worthwhile theologies exploring what a creator God might mean for modern, scientifically literate Christians – process theology and panentheism to name a couple.

The very emphasis on history in Jewish tradition, which Peter so admires, points to a belief that God is active in the world of human affairs.

Good point Rhian. However, how does God act I the world? Is it not by his two hands, the Son and the Spirit? We tend to forget the trinitarian nature of God when we talk of how He acts in the world and revert to an undiffertiated monotheism.