Could not agree more Alanah!
There is only one way to fix this problem, and that is the wholesale sacking of all of those obdurate, obtuse, rigid, recalcitrant academics, who continue to promote the clearly failed/flawed intellectual concept, called whole of language learning, which in their entirely inflexible rigidity, they will defend with their dying breath!
And that may require federal intervention and the withholding of funds, until the required cooperation is received!?
In no way does whole of language learning resemble the mother tongue method of learning to talk, or acquire new language skills.
Mother tongue by the way, is basically both pictorial and repetitive! And is founded on immutable principles, key building blocks, (one of which is clearly phonetics) plus an equally immutable order of sequence! As is virtually all early learning.
A good education is like a very tall building, built story upon story, and like that very tall building, needs a solid foundation to continue to stand; and, withstand the later rigors/demands that follow!
In a simple to understand example, whole of language learning turns 1+1= 2 into a difficult to comprehend 11?
If you can read you can demonstrably teach yourself virtually any discipline, even the flawed one now imposed on our kids by, I believe, highly educated, dictatorial nincompoops.
Good on you Alanah for continuing to fight this extremely arrogant intellectualism, which has far more in common with the flat earth society, (another equally irrelevant if flawed religion/belief system) than modern education?
Not for nothing is all remedial reading founded entirely on phonetics!
Because it alone works!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Go you good thing Alanah!
Rhrosty.

Correction, Alanah should read Alannah. Sincere apologies Alannah. Should have used Phonetics, Al-an-nah.

It sounds to me that educators have compared language acquisition with learning to read. It is not postmodern theory that tells us that language acquisition is a more "natural" process it is evolutionary theory. There exist inherited structures in the brain that enable us to pick up language without being actually taught. This signifies that language is evolutionarily very old. Reading, on the other hand is not. There is no inherited structure in the brain that facilitates it. Such a structure has to be acquired through intense teaching and that means phonetics. To insist that reading is naturally acquired is simply wrong.

Peter Sellick

Well Alannah from Chris Nugent

Chris Pyne would do well to start by sacking at least the English Curriculum staff of ACARA. With two dyslexic teenagers at home he certainly has top motivation to do so. I have written extensively to Chris over the past 3 years and I would like to send material to you too. Please send your contact details to me at literacytesting@bigpond.com and I shall send some of my more useful stuff to you too. Well done!
Chris Nugent

I appreciate Alannah’s earnestness and sincerity: it must be difficult for anyone to stand by and see things happening that don’t produce the desired result without wanting to step in and help.

There are a couple of points I would like to make which may take a lot of the heat out of this discussion and enable light to be shone so that we may see clearly.

The first point is that English is not a phonetic language. Over the years English has borrowed words from other languages and given them an anglicised spelling. There is little correspondence between the spelling and the pronunciation of many words in English. The same combination of vowels and consonants can be pronounced in many different ways, depending on the context. Take the innocuous combination “-ough” as one example: bough, enough, through, though, thought and thorough. In other cases, the addition of one letter to a word can change its pronunciation: taking ‘having’ and ‘shaving’ as an example.

The second point is that English is a world language and the local dialect can change the way the same word is pronounced. In Louisiana, for example ‘cat’, ‘cot’ and ‘caught’ all sound the same while ‘garage’ is pronounced differently in different parts of Australia.

The third point is that neither phonics nor whole word approaches should be used as the sole way of teaching word recognition. As I saw in my wife’s primary school over many years, the most successful teachers used a mix of methods. Every pupil is different with different pre-existing skills and the word and sentence recognition programmes recognised this, offering a mix of methods so that a suitable method was available to each child.

It is short-sighted to blame ‘academics’ and ‘bureaucrats’ for a conspiracy to deprive children of the ability to read when all concerned are working their hardest to help children become better readers than their parents.

Pushing one line of action to the exclusion of others is not the way for those outside the profession, or in the case of some inside the profession, to generate effective change.

Reply to Brian of Buderim

To my recollection, arguments about the ‘phonetic’ nature of the English written system has been an intermittent topic in the literature since the writing on spelling reform by a person called Hart in the 16th century. At one extreme of the unphonetic English argument, Noam Chomsky in 1982 argued that written English was near ‘optimal’ just as it is and did not need to be changed at all. At the other extreme in 1955, Rudolf Flesch argued that written English contained 181 phonic rules that needed to be taught to children in schools.

Both the curses and the blessings within written English lie in the observation to the effect that whilst written English is definitely not ‘phonetic’, it definitely is ‘predictable’. This means that it does follow a large number of quite reliable and relatively predictable rule patterns for pronunciation. Literally every competent reader and speller has learned these rule patterns either as a set of responses to direct teaching or as an incidentally assimilated byproduct of his reading experiences.

All basic perceptual processes of a consistent type in written English require a mastery of these rules patterns or they simply cannot exist as reliable processes. Regardless of any preferred ideological persuasion, it is the responsibility of literally every literacy teacher to at least test systematically in order to ensure that literally every student knows these rules. Students who don’t know the rules should be taught them. All students who don’t know them (at least intuitively) fail at least in spelling but usually also in reading. There is no option to simply knowing what the main rules are.

Finally the most destructive curse of the whole language ideology has been that it adamantly eradicated both the systematic testing and teaching of these rules from virtually all government sponsored schools and colleges in Australia. And this for over 30 years. That's the main reason why Australia now has up to 8 million workers and over 1.5 million students with reading and spelling problems.

Glad to see someone else spotted those elusive academics hiding behind their walls of public dollars. Whatever they touch wilts on the vine and they refuse to be held accountable.
Well done Alannah Mactiernan

Caution you lot. Suseonline & Poirot will come down on you like a tonne of bricks talking about our pseudo intellectuals like this.

I wonder what system of learning to read most of the promoters of the whole language system were taught. If they are 30 years of age or younger we have a case of the blind leading the blind. If they are over 30 years of age, this is just plain scary.

Do the French, Spanish, Germans and Italians have this same literacy problem or is it uniquely American, Australian and New Zealand's approach to learning?

uniquely American, Australian and New Zealand's approach to learning?

sbr108,
I have been asking myself the same question for many years & I am convinced that the above is the case. It is irrefutably the difference in mentality that put the countries you mention several rungs down on the educational ladder. Of course you get exceptionally intelligent in every society but there is definitely a social mentality at work. It is without doubt that the european countries have the edge because of an entrenched culture of discipline & responsibility although this is being undermined as more & more migrants settle there. one just has to look at pre Whitlam Australia & the Australia we have now. Simply no comparison.

BUMP*..diss-cuss-ion_point/thesis

ALL_mind-educated..CREATIONS..are.significant..in a..PERSONAL/historical/progressive..sense
[extracted..from.]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0

They are..the very..first..sysytemised/reference...to
the idea..of OUR-reality..versus..illusion..[of-mind].,..
*the notion..that..THE-reality..can be..affected..BY IMAGINED-FEARS.

IF..only..the..SPIRIT/eternity..is real..and
space..mortal/MATTER/time/place..is potent-illusion.

(The lines.."Nothing real..can be..threatened.
Nothing..unreal..exists"..were..actually..dictated later...for clarity)

How..different would..our day..be..if
we could..establish..and maintain..that..consistent-awareness!..

Imagine..being able..to pass..through_situations..
*fully-aware..that what..you see..is not..really..able..to hurt/you....
that the..illusory/fear-forms..in/front..of mind..perception's.. of you..are just..emotive-baggage[shadows],..

that..you are..literally..walking/through..a dream..
of..your own..miss-perceived..[OTHERS-conceptions].?

You..might think..you..would/stop..caring altogether..about this shadow-play...and..the way..that..*you walked..upon..*its stage.

Yet..that is-not..what this..sentence says...
It seems..to/be..saying,.."While..you are..*in the dream,..why not.*take ACTIVE-part.*in it..constructively?"

What..an interesting/question!

Try..asking yourself..that question..and see.how your mind reacts. Ask..yourself,.."Since/only..eternity..is real,..why_not?..use..the illusion_of..time/constructively?"

The..sense I get..is..The/power..is_not..*in..*its hands;..
the power..is in..my hands...Therefore,..I am free..to use..time however*..I want.

Second,..if..I can/use..time how..I want,
then..why wouldn't..*I use it..constructively..to-do..better?..After all,..I'm here..for now;.I'm in..this/living..live time-moment..in-time.

Why/not..do something_positive..with it?

This contrast..between..the healing-unity/reality
and..the..hurtful/injurious/material..full..of illusion,..
so..of-course,..fearless emoted/motivated/love..[works]..would..become..the..philosophical/backbone..of..the-Course.

Before..this point,..the closest/references..we had
were..two mentions.of.."lower-order/reality,"..which..referred to.the physical level...

Yet..obviously,..even a..lower-order/reality..still
has_been..made real..[accorded/reality]...by..our delusional..fears alone.

whole/purpose..of coming..this far
is..to decide..WHICH BRANCH..YOU WILL*..TO.TAKE..FROM/HERE-ON.

The way..you came..no_longer-matters.
IT..CAN NO..LONGER SERVE.

No-one..who reaches this far..CAN make.the wrong decision.
But..he CAN..INITIATE/delay..And/there..is no par/of..the journey that..seems..more hopeless..and futile..than standing/where
the..road/branches,..*and not..deciding..which_way..to go.

It-is..only the..first/few steps..along/the
NARROW-right/way..that seem hard,..because..you HAVE
chosen,..but you still..think you/can go..back..and make..the other choice.

This..is not/so.. A choice made..with
the..power-of/Heaven..to uphold it..cannot BE..undone.
Your way..IS decided...There will-be..nothing you-will/NOT..be told, if..you acknowledge/this.

For..good..reason,..then,..these references
were/changed..by the editors..to..the "material-bodily/level."

Jesus..starts off..using..a typical,..throwaway comment
that.we make..to each-other..all..the time...

We offhandedly..tell people..to.."have..a good_day,"..
with only.the vaguest-idea..of what/w.. mean..to communicate..unto other..by that...word-choice.

We probably mean ..something like,.."Have..a day..you find enjoyable," or,.."Have..a day..with agreeable..rather than difficult/circumstances."

And we..probably have..no particular..thought
about how..they*..can have..[or..will/chose]..
to live-out..that..good GOD-day...

It's not,,just/a..pleasant-thing..to say...and
good=god..thus..good brings..good..of god..into..live-time/present recall..

plus..the many..other..good-days..comforts
gifted..of..the comforter..within..us-all.

but...You..aren't supposed..to think/about..it..too much...
[the/past-life..whether..for/good or ill..is part..of the past..thus..illusion..

when..we are..trying to.minimize,..illusion/...to..maximize..this present..living..moment..in/time..into..a loving-eternal/aware moment..

Jesus,..however,..has thought..through..
exactly what..he means..by."Have..a god day."..

He..ends-up filling-out..our rather vacant/conventional..saying
with..his own..rather profound..spiritual teaching.

As..a result,..the kind-of day..jesus is..calling.."good"..is *significantly-different..than..our usual..bland-conceptions...recalls.and false memories...

Further.. he has in..aware-mind..a specific way..
to have..that good day...[by loving/other as..the..*way
to..love*our..father]

[love creator..by constantly/CONSISTENTLY...trying..to love-other creations]

This..is so characteristic..of the Course,..to take..some familiar cultural/container,..like.."have a good day,"..and..fill it*.with totally..unfamiliar content,*..which..has both..spiritual-depth

and..specific..injunctions..
for how/to..experience..that depth.
http://miraclevision.com/acim/urtext/acim-urtext-2003-upe-ready-edition.pdf

Yes sure, there are things like bough, borough, brow and bow. And English has French roots, Latin roots, German roots, Gaelic roots and even some Sanskrit roots, but they are usually attended by phonetic pronunciation examples in good dictionaries! And indeed, the principle reason why we must return to phonetics!
That is what dictionaries are for as a prime learning tool, and to reiterate, why we need to return to the phonetic method!
Rather than waste any more valuable time on an unnecessarily complex method, that has demonstrably and unequivocally failed on any comparative measure!
There ought to be a sign on every primary teacher's desk, which ought to read, keep it simple stupid!
Or, lets leave the high school side of their education to high school!
Or, you're here to provide a strong, reliable, dependable foundation, not engage in academic studies of different, untried, untested, unproven, teaching methodologies, where the students become your very unfortunate, and as usual, non-consenting lab rats!
Rhrosty.

Under One God: Whatever you're smoking, I'd get off it if I were you?
To be sure, life is full of cul-de-sacs.
Clearly you are in one of them and as seems usual, so far from the thread, as to be almost incoherent?
Instead of rattling around, in-ever-decreasing-circles, where there is only-one-possible-destination!
You should turn around and head back in the direction you came from?
That way, you might even find the way out?
Cheers, Rhrosty.

frosty..i..first wrote..just the word..bump
hoping to..stir up..some more interesting info..for..what seems a rather/knowledgeably intelligent-group..talking of education..but then..just added a post i been waiting for hours to post..at another thread..but needed..cut/box empty..[so parked it here]

it does relate

[i live to educate..by learning
..so couldnt resist my..offering before peers[fellow educators]

i fully agree with the phonetic thing..its key[for ,me]
i was self taught..by reading books..only interested..in what the word..really means..than the rules re spelling it

like this yanki spelling..[but forget it..say-it like it sounds
the educated soon figure out what phonetics style..your using

in..time we will no doudt have thousands of part word sounds
i so love unraveling the big words..but i want to heart more
[like i..only realized..vowels..when..my kids learned them..and wondered..what the sounds they made ,mean

even..know
its the silly things
[like eg..means ex..not eg-sample]..
thats just elitist clap trap..as if a clever guy couldnt figure it out if they wanted to..

[lest we forget..the lesser begs the greater
[the lesser seeks to..impress those he feels peers.]..ergo/ego gratification..desperate to..impress..[i guess]..[forgive me]

uncool..unschooled
but me=just the fool

anyhow..less of me..for this thread
only 10 post replies..for the 8 topic in articles..
im trying to help figure education..[and morality/and ..out..by.]
put back in..the little/simple/sinful..things..others like to hide..knowing my sin..is yet greater.

im listening...please feel free to teach..or preach..
i know..what i mean...

but are we explaining..the same size problems?

point out..specific errors..i
love to explain/correct any/all..error

cheers

Rhrosty, Saturday, 26 October 2013 12:14:55 PM.

Can I second that ?

There is a very good review of the National Curriculum 1-10 here: www.nottheabc.com
I can't say that I agree now with everything it contains, but it shows the influence of left wing academics on education theory.
What amazes me is the new language academics have invented to discus the new curriculum. Can anyone else see the contradiction - a theoretical paper about an English curriculum that no one understands because of the invented language?

its always good to..lookup post history
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» 25/06/2013 4:47:00 PM

nice to hear from
you yet again..if all you got is trolling
YOUR LACK OF DETAIL..re my errors..speaks for itself

the..bias..is..re topic-subject matter..not the content
clearly-..un-refutable..by yourselves..so you..ridicule

[its pathetic]
sad really

point out specifics..of my error's..
or be revealed as..the joke
and/or the troll

Contrary to Alannah MacTeirnan 's claim, children who have experienced "highly structured instruction of skills associated with decoding writing" do not do better on tests of reading comprehension. They only do better on tests in which they are asked to pronounce lists of words presented in isolation.

The major factor predicting high performance on tests in which children have to understand what they read is the amount of self-selected voluntary reading they have done.
 
If Australia wants to improve reading achievement for those from lower socio-economic backgrounds, the answer is not rigorous phonics instruction. The answer is more access to books: investing in libraries and librarians.
 
Sources:
Garan, E. (2001). Beyond the smoke and mirrors: A critique of the National Reading Panel report on phonics. Phi Delta Kappan 82, no. 7 (March), 500-506.
Garan, E. (2002) Resisting Reading Mandates. Portsmouth, NH: Heinemann.
Krashen, S. 2009. Does intensive decoding instruction contribute to reading comprehension? Knowledge Quest 37 (4): 72-74.

Shrashen: By their fruits ye shall know them, and the fruits of whole of language learning is quite massively increased illiteracy; and Australia falling further and further behind our international peers, in the world of education; but particularly, in science!
Yes sure, one needs numeracy in science.
But given English is the international language of science and or commerce, it is as at least as important as excellent maths, for whole of life best scenario outcomes.
Most of the defenders of whole of language learning miss the most important point, which is our kids and the whole of life outcomes for them!
Our currently very flawed teaching systems, (fundamentally flawed intellectual concepts) imposes on our kids some shocking and entirely unnecessary whole of life, ultra-negative outcomes.
US studies show, kids who leave school as illiterates or semi literate, as the first visible consequence of flawed teaching systems, form the major part of our prison populations?
They form the minor percentage of home owners, but the major part of the working poor!
And we have to stop just shrugging our shoulders, or blocking our ears and singing la la la to ourselves, in the face of very constructive criticism, merely to defended a thoroughly disgraced intellectual concept.
We need to accept our responsibility for outcomes, rather than continue to whitewash or paper over the principle causative factors!
Some highly opinionated Professors think it's all about them?
And to them I say, no it's not!
The central issue here is our kids, their futures, and the best possible outcome, (and the best bang for our bucks) for them!
No private sector enterprise would accept the current results, without some very high profile heads rolling!
Rhrosty.

The central issue here is our kids, their futures, and the best possible outcome, (and the best bang for our bucks) for them!
Rhosty,
So it SHOULD be but it isn't. The most efficient way to dumb down potential future consumers & make them extremely profitable is to let them pass exames, give them good points & drum into them that because they have certificates they're just so above everyone else. This is how they became the burden that they're now. Unfortunately, they've applied the same system in the public service where it has been fine-tuned as the Peter Principle.
I have senior managers from that fallout & working under these morons has to be akin to living in a war zone. The frustrations are extreme. It's all due to our education system.

While there are exceptions, English is estimated to be 84 percent phonetic. One letter may be off, but the word is mostly predictable. And the other roughly 16 percent are not that far off when things like word origin are taken into account. It is estimated that only four percent of English words are truly irregular. After being very unhappy with the answers from their teachers about the methodology teaching how to read, I taught both my daughters to read using phonics and the Hay-Wingo books. It took around two years and I regard it as one of the most important things I have ever done.

I was with MacTiernan right up to, at the end: "It is time for federal intervention. The states have shown an inability to address this problem."

Eh? Where did that conclusion come from, exactly? Particularly when, only a couple of paragraphs earlier, the problem was identified as "higher-education providers of education...still puddling around in post-modernist claptrap"

And who oversees the higher education sector? The FEDERAL government! Accordingly, on this basis it's the states that should be taking back management of universities!