Correction: purchase of the leases of land, not the freehold title to land, as this article implies. In Australia, all pastoral land is held under lease, usually something like 42 years, and for very specific purposes, i.e. pasturing animals, and no other purpose. Lessees pay annual lease fees, or rent. This has been the legal position in every state and territory since very soon after colonisation.

Think of it this way: if you had a lease on a flat, and you - with the agreement of the owner - passed that lease over to someone else, and he/she thenceforth paid the rent, they would be in a similar position, legally, as an Indonesian holder of a pastoral lease.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me :)

Joe
www.firstsources.info

Joe. You are technically correct.

The pastoral lands in the NT are lease in perpetuity. All the land in the ACT is also leasehold, and most of the rural land in the Western Division of NSW is also leasehold etc. etc. Most of these leases involve ownership in all but in name, though they usually are subject to specific usage clauses, sometimes a modest annual fee, and possibly other conditions.

Referring to "purchase" of leases in perpetuity (or of long term leases that have automatic renewal clauses) is common practice. Legally speaking the consideration paid for taking over any lease is a "lease premium" rather than a purchase price but few people use this terminology.

Brendan

Joe, my understanding is the same as yours. What the Indonesians have purchased is a leasehold interest. It is also worth noting that the two properties referred to in the article together represent less than one half of one percent of the NT land territory.

The article also contains a rather too typical element of Indonesian bashing. The author completely fails to note, for example, that US and UK land holdings in Australia are vastly greater than that of Indonesia (or China for that matter).

I would be interested to know just exactly what the author's "private business interests" are now that he is no longer a public servant.

A couple of pastoral leases for 35 million! You're joking? Somebody is being taken to the cleaners and it's not us!
Then we wonder why our kids can no longer afford to buy rural land?
I can remember when PASTORAL LEASES changed hands for 15-16 thousand!
After all, all you can do on them is sustenance grazing or even riskier dry-land farming?
If land values had been indexed for inflation since say the fifties, these prices would be just 10% of what is being charged today.
Arguably, the only winners here will be the ubiquitous realtors, who win with each exchange, on over-hyped values; regardless of the outcomes, good or bad, for the current tenants, repeat, tenants!
If you want to make money from pastoral leases, you need to buy a few off farm investments, with every good year!
To set you up for those years when drought, flood, fire or imbecilic govt decisions ravage the land!
Its simply not good enough for poor managers to blame somebody else, especially, when the real cause of their downfall, was say overstocking and then to be confronted with market and or value loss? I mean, floods can do exactly what the Federal govt did, and stall destocking outcomes.
Wild fires can do it for you with little or no financial return.
And its hard to insure something you are just renting or herds whose numbers can go up and down!
This is where a good diversification management outcome comes into its own!
And far better than simply wasting limited resources, buying new tractors or trucks etc, as a bulwark against penury, when there's nothing wrong with the old ones!
Rhrosty.

There are a few questions I'd like answered.

1. Will the Indonesians be paying Business Taxes to Australia at the Normal Australian Rate, or will it be a Special Rate for Indonesia?

2. Will the Indonesian owners be employing Australians, or Indonesians?

3. Will the Indonesians be paying Australian Wages, or Indonesian Wages?

4. Which Country will the employees Tax be paid too?

5. Will the Indonesians eventually claim this part of Australia as being now a part of Indonesia's Soverenty?

Were the leases purchased with Australian aid money?

sign of the times; we now rely on investment, well from anywhere. Mula rules the world.

Is Mesi: Were the leases purchased with Australian aid money?

Bloody good question. I wish I'd nave thought of that.

More than likely. The Indo's are playing us for fools & the Government refuses to see it, for the sake of "Diplomacy."

The article is alarmist nonsense. The author complains about depressed prices for land and then complains when someone wants to buy. There is no suggestion that the buyers will escape Australian taxes, or be excused Australian laws, and they cannot take the land away. If they think they can make money farming in the NT, for example, then let them. They will have to hire local staff to do it.

As far as it is known, Australian land is still by and large owned (or leased) by Australian farmers, but its not possible to be certain as there are no reliable figures. The newly elected coalition plans to establish a registry. There have been no reports of mass sales, however, just the occasional large sale, such as Cubbie station going to the Chinese.

Hi Curmudgeon,

Yes, you're on the button, I'm not so sure about the uncertainty of land tenure - the Land Boards, Pastoral Boards, Lands Titles Offices, etc., would have an exact knowledge of who is holding what on what terms, and what sorts of title or tenure are being held, lot by lot, lease by lease.

There seems to be a vast array of different sorts of land-holding, licences, 42-year leases, longer and short leases, interests, Crown leases, perpetual leases (which aren't really), special purpose leases, as well as freehold titles with all sorts of qualifications and hedges.

For example, from the earliest times until recently, Aboriginal people had the right to use all pastoral leases (and crown land) as they had done traditionally, to hunt, collect, fish, gather food, etc., camp on, carry out ceremonies on, collect water on, all of that land. i.e. land-use rights, which only make sense if people are actually using the land. Early authorities thought, quite rightly, that those rights could co-exist with pastoral interests. I emphasise 'quite rightly'.

Land-use rights: if you don't use it, you effectively lose it. Which is what's happened over the past twenty years with Indigenous Land-Use Agreements, thanks to dumb-@rse lawyers.

Joe
www.firstsources.info

In the 1990’s I was contracted to manage an NT station to clean it up ready for sale by Japanese who has bought it to establish alternative protein supply. I accepted the contract because I was researching islander malnutrition and world fish depletion. Japan’s catch was declining at an alarming rate.

The Japanese owners were having trouble managing the Australian outback including due to a lot of night shopping of materials like wire left in outer paddocks.

After handing the property over to new owners and on return to NSW I spoke with Hogan’s mate Strop, about what to do about the food shortage causing people to buy up Aus properties. Strop suggested I speak to Frank Devine then editor of the Australian and he said to me I was the first person to come forward with the link between the Aus beef industry and devastated world fish stocks.

I also spoke to the FIRB and they told me they possessed no criteria to understand the fish beef link situation.

I also spoke to the Farm Journal, they found in north Queensland over 90% of beef export abattoirs where foreign owned, plus 30% nationally. I think it’s more now.

I became aware of IPS, international profit shifting. .

It all amazed me because the Aus beef industry was developed with Aus taxpayer money to create product to generate local and export revenue to pay for Aus hospitals and schools etc. So losing beef export revenue surely leads to increased taxes from elsewhere. E.g. GST etc.

Indonesia now has a big problem, so many people, fish stocks now devastated, alternative agriculture not what Aus consultants mooted it to be. Indo has poor soil even to the point live cattle sent there do not stay fertile due to malnutrition.

I think a solution may be for Indonesia to help develop new grazing land in Aus while at the same time helping to develop, say a northern wet season water harvesting aqueduct system that could reach Qld headwaters of the Darling River, helping many Aus farmers downhill along the way, even to S.A.

By buying Australian land, Indonesia is just doing vertical integration to secure domestic beef supply, nothing political about it.

Japfa Group is a large Indonesian agricultural conglomeracy with USD 2 bio revenue and USD 160 mio net profit in FY 2012, with land and farm investments in India, China, Vietnam, and Philippines. CAPEX of USD 35 mio to buy Australian farms is little peanuts for them, whereby their total 2012 CAPEX is USD 100 mio. RNI (the state-owned agricultural company) recorded USD 600 mio revenue and USD 35 mio net profit in 2012. CAPEX of USD 30 mio to buy Aussie farms is small for them as well.

These companies can be considered as middle-tier companies in Indonesia, there are many more much larger companies which has some beef-related interests and may buy-up more Australian land.

It's good to have proud neighbors and friends. It would also be good to do mutually good business with them.
But I think just buying Australia would be out of line.
There is a world protein food sustainability crisis happening and well advanced right now and Australia is a food producing nation.
Joint ventures would be more acceptable.

JF Aus
I read your first post with interest but parts are confusing.. beef-fish link? Sure fisheries are under pressure everywhere but you're confusing that, I think, with a decline in fish supply. I don't believe that's happened, not yet at any rate.. but I'm not sure we're you'd find international production figures.. As for abattoirs being foreign owned, so? Owners, foreign or otherwise, will want to make the abattoirs work in order to earn a return on their investment.. you need more links in your argument..

Curmudgeon,
When fish become scarce, consumers turn to alternative food. In the 90’s the ABS found fish prices rising 5 times faster than red meat and poultry.
Check cost of fresh quality local fish like snapper. Take care to off the head and out the bones and weigh what you will actually eat, likely $50 per kilo.

Two men used to go fishing off Maroubra Sydney. From 2 days weekend fishing they would come home with 400 lb of snapper. At today’s prices of $30 per kilo that’s about $6,000.00.

Bass Strait pilchard and anchovy stocks first estimated able to supply 200,000 tonnes per annum, was soon revised to 100,000 tonnes, but Lakes Entrance Processors did not even make 10,000 tonnes p.a. and the plant closed and was broken down and dismantled due to lack of the resource.
Bass Strait fairy penguins were dying in mass starvation events.

Western Port Bay nearby had major land drainage works and 100 sq km out of 150 sq km of seagrass in the bay vanished. Studies overseas indicate 400 sq mtrs of seagrass can support 2,000 tonnes of fish per annum. Fishermen do not fish for seagrass. The problem is not overfishing but shortage of food for fish to eat.

Australian now imports over 70% of fish including food for aquaculture. Why is that so?

Why do you think fishing boats are coming from Europe to our waters? Even Russia has been and gone, quickly learning of lack of fish down here.

National Geographic reports: http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2003/05/0515_030515_fishdecline.html

Empirical evidence indicates it is much worse for small fish. Fish dependent seabirds have generally
gone, few remain.
In 2,000 there was unprecedented (low population) mass starvation of mutton birds along coastline of 4 states extending from Rockhampton to South Australia and around Tasmania.

Wild fish are impossible to count, no baseline data, no reliable data, no complete scientific evidence.

Many people are not seeing wild fish devastation because they either have money and do not notice the increased cost, or because they are eating aquaculture fish from Asia

Don't blame non-Australians for buying land offered by money-hungry Australian landowners.
This is is stupid as blaming the Poppy seed growers for drug addiction. Get real people ! You're blaming the wrong people, this is the fault of Australians.

individual,
Blame is can be a waste of time and unproductive but looking at the fault I see the Aus government ABC not passing on news, especially to rural people. For example even on this thread you can see Curmudgeon is not aware of the seriousness of the world fish depletion/devastation that already exists.
Some nations are aware of ocean food devastation and are taking the lead into opportunities to sustain their own supply and no doubt on-sell to others for a big profit. Taxes get paid elsewhere when profits are shifted internationally.

I think Aus govt economic 'advisers' know wild fish are devastated. Howard spent $200 million buying back fishing licenses. But reality of devastated wild fish has been kept quiet. The govt developed aquaculture policy instead of ocean ecosystem management policy.

Australian rural people in general have not been getting a fair go. They have not heard of the massive opportunities in sustaining supply of food, not just food, but specifically essential protein food.

Oh and don't forget the grabbing for the Aus dairy (essential protein) industry. Yes, force the Aus farmers out with low prices for their milk.

I see foreign investors now wanting to buy Aus grain export infrastructure. Barnaby is objecting but he let Cubby Station go with all the water it hogs while depriving Aus farmers downstream.

Yes, blame Australians, especially the ABC for not broadcasting the real news to keep Australians duly informed.

Australia kow-tows to all its neighbours. Abbott is showing no more nous than previous governments.
In a few words:
- Indonesia does what it likes to the West Papuans and moves them off their land, tortures people at will and burns villages suspected of favouring independence

- Indonesians can buy up large chunks of Australian land and do what they like with it, employ whom they like, whatever

- we are so scared of Indonesia that we give it $646 million a year (DFAT website)

On the land issue, note that land prices in Sydney are moving up all the time. The problem is too many "investors", many of whom are Chinese , US, English. But of course nobody dare attack Asians buying up Australia. That would be racist.

@JFAus:

I think it is very simple for foreigners to buy Australian land; for example Indonesian companies does not directly own the land, but purchase it via its Australian subsidiary registered as Australian entity and perhaps with Australian citizens as management team. Japfa purchased the land via its Australia subsidiary Santori which has Australians as its board members.

This is normal procedure for multinational corporations.

@Bronte:

Indonesia does not 'burn villages', please don't be such a gullible naive person who believe every fantastic propaganda stories you hear. BTW, Indonesia can impose its policies within in its sovereign territory as it sees fit without needing to get 'permission' from other countries. This is normal procedure.

Proud to be Indo: Indonesia does not 'burn villages', please don't be such a gullible naive person who believe every fantastic propaganda stories you hear. BTW, Indonesia can impose its policies within in its sovereign territory as it sees fit without needing to get 'permission' from other countries. This is normal procedure.

Well, it does burn Villages. When the Indos want an area they move in & relocate the people, burn the Village then Farm or Mine as they want. My brother worked there for 2 years. This is normal procedure.

As you say, "Indonesia can impose its policies within in its sovereign territory as it sees fit without needing to get 'permission' from other countries."

After all these people aren't human. They are considered to be animals by the Indos. They are not Muslim & they have no God.

This has been a useful article in raising a lot of issues which are clearly of national importance.

I think we have to keep asking publicly some questions of Indonesia and of Abbott's Liberals. All very well for Tony to swan around and listen to gamelan orchestras and watch pretty girls dancing but :

1. Why won't the Indonesian army allow foreign media to visit West Papua? What are they afraid of? Richard di Natale, Nick Xenophon and John Madigan have been asking these questions persistently.

2. What does Indonesia do with the $646 million that we give it every year?

3. How come Indonesians can buy land here, but we can't buy any land over there?

Bronte,
Indonesia does not 'burn villages', please don't be such a gullible naive person who believe every fantastic propaganda stories you hear.
I'm with Proud to be Indonesian on that one. I have personally accompanied Indonesians on one of their trips handing out goods & food to Papuans who did it hard. I have seen the Airforce Hercules twice a week taking Papuans to & from their villages to Market. I have not witnessed any hostility towards Papuans from Indonesians but I have experienced the other way round.
There are no angels in our world so I suggest to not expect the Indonesians to be any different to Australians. I have yet to see Indonesians coming to Australia & behaving like naked drunken monkeys but you see Australians behaving like that on a daily basis in Indonesia. I have yet to see indonesian sex tourists coming to Australia & abusing our children. If you want to point the finger than you'd better point it another way.

For Indi & Proud Indo & knowing what my brother told me.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/11/west-papua-tony-abbott-australia?CMP=ema_632&et_cid=52573&et_rid=jayb1@bigpond.net.au&Linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcommentisfree%2f2013%2foct%2f11%2fwest-papua-tony-abbott-australia

@bronte:

(1) LOL, Indonesia never close Papua from foreigners since there is nothing to hide. Show me a single law make such "prohibition". In fact, there has been dozens of foreign journalists visiting the provinces each year. There are thousands of foreigners working in Papua as miners or as Christian missionaries. Again, do not be such a gullible naive person who believe every fantastic stories you are told.

(2) Our economy is in excess of USD 1 trillion, foreign aid is less than 0.5% of our GDP whereby the largest provider is Japan and USA, not Australia. You can google AusAid website yourself if you want to know their programs.

(3) As I said, Indonesian companies can easily set-up Australian subsidary companies, and it is these Australian entities which purchase land and hold the titles. This is standard for any MNCs from any countries.

ptbi: 2) Our economy is in excess of USD 1 trillion, foreign aid is less than 0.5% of our GDP whereby the largest provider is Japan and USA, not Australia. You can google AusAid website yourself if you want to know their programs.

Then why is Australia giving Aid to Indonesia if Indoneasia has a bigger economy than Australia?

Australia should cease all Aid to Indonesia immediately.

Or, Is it, that the Aid Australia gives is the Jizyah Tax that Australia is obligated to pay to Muslim Countries?

@JayB:

I think your opinion applies to how white Australians see Aborigines, ie animal-like and beneath contempt. We Indonesians are of much superior moral state than the white Aussies.

You are welcome to visit any of Indonesian-owned properties in Australia to find out about us.

@JayB:

We don't really care much about your aid, but your govt is quite keen in giving this money to us. Maybe they want to keep the goodwill of Indonesians to negate effects of poorly-informed haters like yourself.

Jayb,
I'm sorry but it sounds like too much of hard trying to destabilise.

ptbi" We Indonesians are of much superior moral state than the white Aussies.

Not from what I've seen.

Is that why Indonesia is the 5th. most corrupt Country in the World. It wasn't long ago when Australia threatened to reduce the Aid to Indonesia that there was a threat of not trading with Australia any more & breaking off Diplomatic Relations if we didn't continue to Pay the Jizyah Tax.

The Aid is a Jizyah Tax, isn't it?

Jayb,

Indonesian people are as intelligent and well-disposed as anybody else. So I can't believe that they would entertain such an unjust, backward and discriminatory notion as jizya, if Wikipedia is any guide:

" .... jizya was sanctioned by the Qur'an, the primary source of Islamic law[:]"

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Joe

—Qur'an, [Quran 9:29

ptbi" We Indonesians are of much superior moral state than the white Aussies.

When the Boxing Day Tsunami hit the Scientists wondered why they didn't get a warning. They found that all the Solar Cell had been stolen by Indonesian fishermen. The Scientists replaced the Solar Cell & put more Warning Buoys in place. Six weeks later they wondered why they weren't getting any signals from the Buoys. They found that they had all been stolen again. Yep, superior morals. I can see that.

When was the last time a white Aussie blew up an Indonesian Restaurant in Australia? Strangely I've never read about that in the Media. I have read & seen on TV lots of bombings in Indonesia killing lots of white people. Yep, it’s that lying Media again.

Australians don't want Indonesians claiming they own part of Australia down the track. Which they will inevitably try once they settle enough people here.

Hey Indy, not only are you siding with the Muslims lately you are starting to sound like one. (Jayb, I'm sorry but it sounds like too much of hard trying to destabilise.) What's going on?

Jayb,
No I don't side with them just as I don't side with Australians who behave like brainless morons in Bali & other asian centres invaded by blokes looking for little boys & girls to satisfy their own perverse desires at the expense of those children's future.
The fact is I only side with what I consider sensible people. It may put a dent in many peoples beliefs here but Australians of all complexion are no different to people in other countries. Our only saving grace is there are only 22 million Australians. Indonesia has 220 million on sixteen thousand islands.
I know Christians who are not an ounce different to Muslims or Budhists or jehova witnesses.
I also know ALP supporters who are worse than any of the aforementioned.
I know australian bureaucrats who are as corrupt as any in asian countries & cause just as much harm.
All we have here is a small population & we must not let it get out of hand because the alternative is too frightening to contemplate. If we do bring in migrants we need to focus on letting overseas teachers in to help change the poor mentality that is in our schools now.

@JayB:

WRT 'jizya tax', I wouldn't know since I am not a Muslim as is 15% of the Indonesian population. That's why Indonesia is not a Muslim country whereby our laws are almost entirely secular.

WRT 'Boxing Day Tsunami', again where do you hear this information? As far as I recall there was never any tsunami warning system in Indian Ocean prior to 2004, because there was never a tsunami there in recorded history.

WRT 'bombings', again even Obama praises Indonesia for its successful work against terrorists, whereby there has not been a bomb for 5 years. I suggest you subscribe to your big brother's USA pro-Indonesia sentiments.

WRT land purchase, well face the new world, Indonesia needs food security and as such we will buy Australian land to vertically-integrate the beef food chain in particular.

We reap what we sow.
This is our penance for forcing Indonesians to lose face.
Perhaps sentencing Lynne White, Joe Ludwig and some ABC employees to do a couple of years work experience on these properties, will bring closure to this sorry time in our countries history.

Perhaps try to relax JayB and carefully consider what Individual is saying.

From my point of view Australian media and politicians are at fault here, their spin and self interest is catching up with them. They have failed to see and address Indonesia's serious food security problem with over 200 million people on islands having to be fed daily.

Julia just stopped the live cattle exports at the whim of a money collecting organization.
Were Indo consumers considered? Was food supply and demand and affordability and inflation in Indo considered? Not likely.
Even now a new abattoir is being built at Darwin to 'supply Indonesia' with meat killed in Australia, but due diligence is lacking about the higher cost of Aus killed beef that will be un-affordable to Indonesians in need.

Aus government and media ‘news’ is behind the times with communication required for Australian people to understand collapse of world seafood supply sustainability. Indications of such collapse are actually being gagged and covered up, I think because self-interest agenda is focused on billion dollar aquaculture and other white meat alternative supply/production.

In my opinion the fishing boats being used for people smuggling are available on the cheap because lack of fish has resulted in those boats becoming very run down. Not many fish caught equates to not enough money for engine repairs, hull and deck water proofing, nets, fuel.
PM Abbott talks of buying those boats but he does not realize how many of them are becoming available due to fish devastation. PM Abbott has failed repeated request to hear about fish devastation so he has no understanding of many aspects and consequences of the situation.

What should be happening is Australians should be aware of Indonesia’s need for affordable protein food supply on a sustainable basis. The key words are affordable and sustainable.

Australia should be increasing it’s herds in order to supply increasing world demand linked to dramatically decreasing wild fish supply.
The four main tuna species in the Pacific are now at historically low levels.

@Individual has a good outlook about Indo

@Curmudgeon,

Are you still about?

At the following link you will find some background and insight whether or not fish are depleted. If not depleted and there is no supply demand link to alternative animal protein then no worry about selling Australian food and fibre business to overseas investors.
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber%2Fhansardr%2F1995-06-05%2F0017;page=0;query=%28Dataset%3Ahansardr%20SearchCategory_Phrase%3A%22house%20of%20representatives%22%29%20Decade%3A%221990s%22%20Year%3A%221995%22%20Date%3A05%2F06%2F1995%20Speaker_Phrase%3A%22mr%20bradford%22;rec=1;resCount=Default


As for a beef fish link, note questions on notice at the following link.
I think the questions should be asked in this day and age.
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22chamber%2Fhansardr%2F1992-05-28%2F0212%22

Addressing a couple of points here and now, don’t you think it likely Japan would relax beef import restrictions if the ocean fish supply to Japan was becoming unsustainable?

At the time these questions were answered an LNP shadow minister wrote to me and said the beef fish link was reality and did not need to be researched. I have the letter and can put it online if needed.

As for Indonesia now, I expect Indonesia would also seek alternative protein supply because their island and lagoon and bay and near-shore fish supply is now unsustainable.
Desperate fishermen selling their rundown boats for one way voyages by people smugglers, I think is a sign of fish devastation and no further future making a viable living from fishing.

Indo needs to sustain protein food supply, complete protein, essential amino acid protein for 200 million plus people and also for feedmeal in chicken and pork production and beef feedlots.

We should not be selling Australia because the ABC is not telling the story.
Value of Aus rural industry should be known by Aus people especially at the FIRB.