Principles are good (in principle), but they can also cause, as in Whitlam's case and in Gillard's to a degree, a sense that the ends can justify the means.

Without a strong sense of morality to go along with the sens eof mission that principles often provide, it's easy to go off the rails.

My feeling is that Rudd and Abbott are both principled people and they both have a strong sense of personal morality. I hope I'm right, because on of them will become PM and they will have a whole party full of people with their own principles and sense of morality to try to integrate into an effective Government.

Yes Antiseptic there was a very large point. I find it incredible that any thinking person can't see through the façade that is Rudd.

You have a real tendency to pontificate, handing down your wisdom, from a great height, to us peasants. This may not be so bad if there was some wisdom to dispense. I can not find any wisdom in anyone who is so lacking in judgment as to think Rudd has any principles.

I have to doubt your intended line of study will achieve very much, if you lack the basic skill to see through an obvious fake like Rudd, particularly when you tell us you have had the opportunity to see the subject up close.

Once again, Hasbeen, you're making lots of dramatic assertions, but there's no attempt to justify any of your claims. I don't think Rudd is an "obvious fake". What makes it "obvious" to you and what is the nature of his fakery?

I'm sorry if your think I'm pontificating, I really am. Perhaps I tend to over-intellectualise a bit in print, it's a sin I'm trying to rectify. What I would really like is to have a decent conversation about this stuff instead of having people competing in a war of slogans. Conversations with George on philosophy are very satisfying because they stimulate lots of thinking and exploration of ideas, even though we rarely overtly agree on anything.

You're obviously a smart, capable bloke and I have a lot of time for your views on a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree on others. I reckon if we were to sit down over a beer we'd get on pretty well.

but why not bring back Fraser to be joint PM. He never was much good, rather like Whitlam actually
Raycom,
I wonder if anyone could or rather would disclose how much these two are costing us every day they still hang in ? I guess their kids will be rubbing their hands in anticipation of their inheritance. I mean how much can an even posh nursing home cost ? Or, are these two still getting free offices & secretaries ? The mind boggles.

Antisceptic,
I too see through Rudd like a crystal clear window. As Hasbeen says, that man for want of a better word, is so un-genuine that calling him a fake is actually a compliment.

That's great, indi. Care to tell us why?