Okay, I will admit that until this article, I thought you 'anti-vaxxers' were a bunch of conspiracy obsessed whack-jobs. (I still reserve my right to think that, by the way....)

However, I have not had a child and I haven't been one for quite a while, and I wasn't aware that so many vaccinations are now routinely given to babies. If Hep B is one of them, I would agree - ridiculous and unnecessary.

SO my question is this. If if was taken back to a happy medium where babies (in usual circumstances - not high risk ones) received only those vaccinations EVERY baby should REALLY have - would you then remove your objection? Or would you stay in the 'anti' camp, just, you know - because?

You have the right to expose your children to whatever risks you choose. You do not have the right to harm others, particularly susceptible newborn babies, which is why I think unvaccinated children should be kept well away from childcare centres where there is the highest risk of them causing harm.

Where do you stand on smallpox vaccination? From your stance can we assume you would prefer smallpox was still killing people around the world rather than have been eradicated through vaccination?

This article is malicious garbage:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

"Sophie Love has been involved in the advertising and media industries since the 1980's"

Right so not a doctor or other relevant medical knowledge in which to make an informed decision for yourself let alone try a persuade others.
Not all antivac's wear sandals but they all are nuts.

>>Maybe it’s the cocktail of viruses, maybe it’s the chemicals (including aluminium, ammonia, formaldehyde, sodium chloride, anti-freeze [phenoxyethanol], carbolic acid and MSG) which form the solutions the vaccines are suspended in.<<

You are taking the piss aren't you? Sodium chloride is table salt. I'm a chef - if salt is dangerous I'm in a lot of trouble. And if MSG is dangerous then the blokes at the chinese take-away up the road are in lot of trouble too.

Cheers,

Tony

Intelligent and well educated!?
Then why the extremely obtuse and completely illiterate attitude to vaccinations?
Vaccinations have eliminated smallpox and almost eliminated polio.
If this extremely opinionated person, had so much as an ounce of human empathy and watched any newborn exposed to something as innocuous as whooping cough. A killer disease in the newborn!
Her asinine attitude would become automatically adjusted, particularly in light of the various claims, linking vaccinations to autism, being proved entirely fraudulent, along with the medical expertise or credentials, of proponents of that garbage!
I agree with the NSW premier, and support the view, we need to legally prohibit unvaccinated children, from not just child care centres, but all public places, libraries, museums, art galleries, theatres, supermarkets, public eateries, licensed clubs, sport venues, schools, buses, trams and trains etc, as well, unless or until, they present with a completely up to date, vaccination card!
We play unwilling host to numbers of uninvited people, who come from places, where many of the diseases we have all but eliminated, still exist. And carriers don't necessarily test positive!
Therefore, we need to continue to provide blanket protection until those infectious diseases have been eliminated in all other places as well!
The rights of the many clearly trump the rights of a very few, patently selfish, self centred and entirely ill-informed, I'm all right Jack, "eccentrics"!
Rhrosty.

But, wait on, Candide. Your kids have been vaccinated: right? Yet they're going to catch a disease against which they've been vaccinated from non-vaccinated kids? How's that?

The author is one of the "thalidomide generation", which would seem, at age around fifty years, to preclude her from the young mothers' group. She does , however, write as if protecting her infants of today and this rather skews the article.
Australia has quite recently had several children infected by, and one child dying from, a new stronger type of poliomyelitis which was first noted in China. I am of the polio generation, from the 1930s and 40s. Having lived through that, if this disease becomes rampant I believe parents,anti and pro vaccination, will be queuing to keep their child safe. It is precisely because parents have not known illness and deaths from once prevalent diseases that our ancestors feared that they feel they may choose.
As a nurse I cared for infants dying from whooping cough and measles, helped infants and children permanently crippled by polio and watched the horror of death from tetanus...no possible complication from vaccination is worse than these frequently fatal diseases.

I should clarify my earlier post.

Sophia Love's article is malicious garbage and the link I provide illustrates that plainly.

Love is the sort of person who lives in a civilized infrastructure where the trevails and horrors of nature are kept at bay but who through lack of wit and ego dreams up ideas which if implemented widely would decimate that civilized infrastructure and return humanity to plagues.

Carol83, FYI I am 47 and my son is 4 and a half. I home birthed him, aged 42, safely on the farm where we live. I am absolutely in the thick of the debate as he goes to preschool 3 days a week and this is the Mother's Group hot topic of the past few years

SO how will you feel if your unvaccinated child is a carrier of whooping cough and causes the death of a baby from one of the pre-school families or some other family you happen to come into contact with?

Are you going to answer my question about smallpox? If smallpox hadn't been eradicated would you take your child to a 'smallpox party'? Have you had any vaccinations yourself? At your age I'd guess you would have been offered polio and rubella vaccinations at school. How would you feel if your little boy had been born deaf because you had rubella during your pregnancy?

Sophie - I can only agree with cohenite.. before the introduction of vaccination children use to die like flies.. parents with several children would see their whole family wiped out.

Granted that some vaccinations may no longer be necessary but if so, that is a matter for the medical profession as a whole to come sort of agreement. Because the risks of continuing vaccinations are trivial to non-existent (evidence otherwise?) some conservatism in such matters is acceptable. It is not for you to unilaterally withdraw from the system, and potentially put everyone else in danger. Nor are arguments about the body being a temple or some such relevant. So stop messing around and get your kids fully vaccinated. You will not get little sympathy on this site for this nonsense and rightly so.

I've read through the comments so far to see if there were any substantive objections to your eminently sensible article. The only thing that held up as a possible issue is the notion that we may be at some risk from travellers, refugees and other individuals who are participants in the more global social world of our current times. I also remember the days when measles, chicken pox, etc. were normal experiences of primary school age children, with no great social impact. If anyone died of measles in those days it was certainly not generally known, and by deduction VERY uncommon. Modern medicine would seem capable of preventing even that. Yes, I have noted the so-called 'anecdotal' frequency with which children who were fine and healthy suddenly acquired mysterious and hard to describe maladies and some kind or other of general malaise immediately after vaccination. We also have NO IDEA of how many children experience 'developmental delay' or adult diminished potential as a result of vaccination.(A similar argument holds for animals, who have even less capacity to register impairment than people, and whose vaccines are subject to even less regulatory oversight). I therefore think that the cautious approach is a lot safer not only for the individual child but also for the general level of population well-being. I suspect that mass vaccinations, as distinct from vaccination of those at particular risk may be a function of the economics of the vaccination producing pharmaceutical companies.

Freddington, vaccines aren't 100 percent effective, so it is possible to catch a disease even if vaccinated, although the percentage of vaccinated people who do so is much much lower than the percentage of unvaccinated people. There are also children with severely compromised immune systems who need the protection of community herd immunity to be safe.

thanks Sophia for informing us of the very inconclusive science on this one. Certainly the so called climate 'scientist ' as well as evolutionist have shown how dishonest some 'scientist ' can be.

Sophie Love,

I'm fascinated at your advocating "....firmer vaccination protocols for travellers, in order to protect those innocent and developing immune systems."

So you advocate vaccination to protect our children from outsiders, yet you claim all is fine is we don't bother to vaccinate within our own borders.

It's all very well to say that diphtheria is eradicated in this or that country - how do you think that came about?

Measles "was' pretty much shown the door before Dr Wakefield got in on the act in the UK.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/22/the-legacy-of-andrew-wakefield-continues/

Going from a few dozen cases to 2,000 in 2012 and already 1,200 cases this year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/years-after-scare-linked-measles-shot-to-autism-unprotected-uk-children-drive-measles-spread/2013/05/20/73f4ac2a-c134-11e2-9aa6-fc21ae807a8a_story.html

The one that I find most outrageous is small babies and whooping cough. I takes vaccination at 2,4, and 6 months before a baby is sufficiently protected Many babies contract this disease before they have had the chance to be fully vaccinated.

It's all very well to say it's not 100 percent and perhaps being exposed to these diseases at parties was once fashionable - but a tiny baby at risk from whooping cough may well lose the battle for life while "boosting" its immune system - same goes for children and the deadly disease of measles.

runner

Science? I'm curious, where do you think Sophie made any reference to science? In fact, basically all she says is that because some of the diseases haven't been sighted in Aus for some time we should stop vaccinating babies against them. She doesn't stop to think that there haven't been any new cases because the vaccinations have been maintained.

Then she puts forward her own theories about babies should have their immune systems toughened by being exposed to more diseases.. This is a line of thought similar to those who suggest that cleaner modern environments explain the rise of asthma. So are we going to recreate the smoke filled air of cities when every living room had its own fireplace to reduce the incidence of one disease? Sophie is welcome to her views, but she is not welcome to put them into practice if it puts the rest of the community at risk..

I can't believe this drivel.

Diseases require a population pool to survive and mutate; with an increasing number of self-absorbed nitwits not vaccinating that pool is provided and diseases which are effectively dormant, not extinct, can revive and mutate beyond the parameters of the vaccinated restraint.

Most vaccinations provide a high probability within a population pool that most of the people will no longer catch a disease which has been vaccinated against in the population pool. There will still be a slight chance, 1-5%, that a vaccinated person would catch the disease but if all people within the pool are immunised then there is no chance of that small chance occurring.

It would require an external introduction of the disease or a group of people within the vaccinated group not being vaccinated for the disease to get a leg-up again.

In my opinion people who don't vaccinate should be treated as potential carriers of disease and treated as such.

As for this complete bs about toughening children up by exposing them to diseases; this is just Lamarckism. Noone unvaccinated is resistant to these diseases; all that differs from person to person is a variation in the reaction to the disease. You can't toughen a genetic predetermined predisposition through exposure. In fact a vaccination is a controlled exposure to the disease which is designed to prevent the possibility of the worst reaction from occurring.

This article and the attitude behind it are just rubbish.

This article is not rubbish. In the past we had more Govt involvement in the development of vaccines. Now they are not doing due diligence with testing and allowing big Pharmaceutical Cartels to have total control.

Why did they withdraw singular safe vaccines during the 1980's and replace then with multiple ones that in some cases had to be withdrawn because they caused Meningitis?

We are not saying abandon vaccines, but bloody well make sure they are safe.

I am appalled by the mis-representations in this article.

I am old, so I remember some of these diseases. When I was young, my parents would never think of having a chickenpox party, a measles party. I contracted chickenpox at age 6. I was away from school for three weeks. I have since had shingles. I would not wish this on any child. I caught measles at age 3. I was so sick, I ended up in hospital. These are not trivial diseases. Most who catch them will have no long-term effect, but a few will be severely affected and even die. This is an example recently in the news http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/cecily-johnson-calls-for-vaccinations-following-death-of-her-daughter/story-e6frf7jo-1226643310425

Of course it is possible for infants to contact Hepatitis B. They contact from their mothers who are carriers. http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi31suppl.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3d.htm Vaccination of newborns is estimated to reduce incidence of vertical transmission by 75-90% http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8862332

Diptheria was eradicated from Australia through vaccination. It still occurs elsewhere in the world. Back in the bad old days before vaccination eradicated diphtheria, it used to kill people. My father had a friend at school who died from diphtheria in the 1930s.

Our children are not sickly. They typically have better health than children in Australia have ever had – although over consumption of calories and under exercising are causing a health crisis in their own right.

MMR does not cause autism. There have been exactly 1 payout for autism in the US (out of more than 5000 claims) and one rather suspect payout in Italy. It only makes me think Sophie Love is gilding the lily.

Yes Ms Love has the right to be a conscientious objector to vaccination. She does not have the right to mis-represent vaccination to others.

Agronimist, this issue in this present Corporate dominated world is not a simple black and white answer. http://www.globalresearch.ca/are.vaccines-safe/15669

Reference here is made to Dr Tom Jefferson head of Vaccine Field Group at Cochrane Data Base and he has serious reservations about the H1N1 flu vaccine.

In this current world environment of corporatocracy, with their deception, theft and lies, as evidenced by the GFC, wars of imperialism, contrived debt, austerity, theft of public assets and the perception the world is way too over populated etc; Would you put your child's life their hands? Life was always cheap in third world countries.Now we are joining them.

We should all do our own research and not rely profit orientated self interest groups as being the self evident truth.

Ms. Love should perhaps take some time to become a bit more educated about the diseases she thinks are so mild. For instance, measles kills about 1 in 1,000-2,000 children who get it, even with advanced medical care (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#risk). Hepatitis B, while predominantly spread via sexual contact or IV drug use, can survive on surfaces for around a week and still be able to cause infections. With infants' propensity to touch things and put their hands in their mouths, it makes eminent sense to protect them where possible. Speak to a pediatric infectious disease specialist to learn more about these viruses and bacteria and just what they can do. (Here's some info formatted for a lay-person's understanding for 16 of the diseases that are commonly vaccinated against: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/08/complete-vpd-wanted-poster-lineup.html)

Ms. Love may also want to learn a little more about the "chemicals" she fears so much. For example, no vaccine contains anti-freeze. This is a common mistake made by anti-vaccinationists confusing "ethylene glycol" (anti-freeze) and "polyethylene glycol" (a non-toxic excipient in some vaccines), two similar-sounding chemicals that are very different. As someone else mentioned, sodium chloride is common table salt. MSG is not the terror Ms. Love thinks it is either (http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/10/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients-msg.html).

The article also makes errors and misrepresentations regarding U.S. compensation cases. In fact, Ms. Love's piece is long on opinion, but rather short on facts.

Todd W. You've never posted on OLO before and I'm a tad suspicious. Are you denying the use of thermisol which contains 49% Mercury and is a neurological poison?

The facts are that vaccines are a multi- billion dollar business and the present psyche would not want the truth get in the way of a good profit.

So if in doubt in the future,we should see people like Obama and his children inject exactly what we get. Perhaps Todd W,you should lead the way in this field with a Russian Roulette of vaccine expose.

@Arjay

Yes, this is my first comment at OLO. The article popped up in my Google alerts for posts about vaccine-preventable diseases (e.g., measles, which is currently ravaging Pakistan and causing a large number of hospitalizations in the U.K.). Be suspicious of me all you want. Whatever you suspect of me is most likely incorrect.

Thimerosal is still used in some flu vaccines (but thimerosal-free vaccines are available), as well as in vaccines used in developing countries, where prevention of contamination is very important. Thimerosal in the amounts found in TCVs is not neurotoxic. In much larger doses, yes, it is dangerous, but that can be said about any substance. Here's more reality-based info on thimerosal (http://antiantivax.flurf.net/#Thimerosal).

If you have any links to legitimate, high-quality research showing that any of the vaccines is actually worse than the diseases they present, by all means, let us have the links. Though I suspect you'll just cry conspiracy rather than ponying up some evidence.

As for President Obama, I'd wager he and his kids are up to date on their immunizations. And regarding Russian Roulette, you're loading your chamber with more bullets by not vaccinating (http://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/lets-play-russian-roulette/).

Welcome to OLO Todd W, and don't worry about Arjay. He is suspicious about everybody!

This article shows how naive the author is when it comes to the diseases that vaccinations protect us from.

These diseases are not 'eliminated' at all. Polio, measles, mumps , tetanus, German measles, tuberculosis and others are still with us somewhere in the world.
And we have people visiting Australia from these countries every day.

We can't be complacent, especially where our children are concerned.
I would like the author to individually look up all the diseases vaccinations help prevent, and then get back to us...

@Suseonline

Thanks for the welcome. I second your call for the author to read up on these diseases. I'm from the U.S., but have a number of friends in Aus, so a lot of my references may refer mostly to things this side of the Pacific. A very good resource to learn about the diseases is the CDC Pink Book, which has chapters that go into great detail (though with very easy to read sections) on vaccine preventable diseases. Freely available here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html#chapters

The really sad thing is that the vaccines for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, and others could be made obsolete, just like the smallpox vaccine, if enough people are immunized globally. These diseases only exist in humans, so we could eliminate them and cut down on the number of vaccines kids get. Sadly, it's folks like Ms. Love that keep pushing that day further and further away.

Ms Love makes some good points about the importance of healthy lifestyle choices and the need for children to develop immune response from exposure to pathogens. I share some of her concerns about the need for certain vaccinations - like Hep B at very early age unless there are medical indications.

However, and it's a very BIG however, the risks associated with vaccination are hugely outweighed by the risks of not vaccinating.

Contrary to Ms Loves claims Diptheria is not eradicated in Australia. In 1977 I was involved in the care of a baby aged 8-10 mths who died from the disease and there were 2 other non-fatal cases at the same time. The deceased infant hadn't been immunised, I remember that much. Whether the other sufferers had I can't. There have been cases and the odd death all throughout the late 1900s and this continues now. Her claims about tetanus are also way off the mark. The wound that needs suturing is far less likely a starting point for tetanus than the minor puncture wound treated at home with antiseptic cream and a bandaid. Whooping Cough remains an ongoing problem. God forbid Polio ever makes a resurgence.

A walk through an old cemetery counting the graves of infants and children should be mandatory for the anti-immunization crowd. Parents of the pre-immunization pre-antibiotic era were EXTREMELY fortunate not to lose a child or 2,3,4 maybe more, not to mention the after effects suffered by survivors, from the dreadful diseases that are now largely prevented by VACCINATION. The graves of children who have died from complications of vaccination are few and far between.

While I'd be reluctant to advocate forced vaccination, I do believe it is quite reasonable for childcare providers and schools to refuse entry to children who have not been immunised to help protect the majority. Parents who do not immunize need to understand that decision may impact negatively on others and be prepared to make necessary adjustments to support their individual choices.