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The Forum > Article Comments > Some forms of criticism of Israel can indeed be antisemitic > Comments

Some forms of criticism of Israel can indeed be antisemitic : Comments

By Ahron Shapiro, published 31/5/2013

From the Prime Minister down Australian politicians deserve praise for adding their names to the London Declaration.

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Dear David,

<<Democracy in my opinion includes the protection of the minority from interference by the government except where such interference is vital to the survival of the nation.>>

This is called 'liberalism', not 'democracy'. Democracies may be more liberal or otherwise, just like any other rule.

<<One of the areas that government has no business interfering with is a person's religious belief or lack of religious belief.>>

That's obvious, but religion is so much more than belief: belief is cheap - religion means PRACTICE!

<<You wanted him shut up.>>

No. Not publishing one's articles every other week is not shutting them up, there's nothing wrong with protecting one's own eardrums. Singer is free to create his own blogs and forums; he may comment here on other people's articles; he may start a 'general discussion'; or he can also publish his ideas in professional lawyer's forums where they are more likely to be appreciated.

<<Individuals must be protected from the 'will of the people' in my view. Possibly not in yours.>>

Certainly in my view as well. I would do anything to protect Singer had his religious practices or way of life been under threat, but it is not my duty to invite anyone into my own home.

<<The protection of those with minority viewpoints is not only necessary in religious beliefs but for dissenting opinion in general.>>

I agree of course, but protecting viewpoints and dissenting opinions is cheap. The crux of the matter and the big test is when those viewpoints call for actual practice, for an actual alternative way of life.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 31 May 2013 5:14:38 PM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

We still disagree. You wrote: "protecting viewpoints and dissenting opinions is cheap." I don't think it is cheap at all. Many people have been murdered for their expression of dissenting opinion. Rather than being cheap I think it is precious and essential.
Posted by david f, Friday, 31 May 2013 5:39:49 PM
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Expressing viewpoints is one thing, imposing them on others is something else. A viewpoint expressed in Germany was that Jews should be identified genetically and murdered, and that Aryans should also be defined genetically and had the right to seize Lebensraum by force in other people's territory. Views of that type are contemptible and attempts to act on them turned out to merit and require their exceedingly costly suppression.

Fortunately Zionist views don't run to hunting and murdering people for the wrong genetic makeup. But they have done, and do, run to seizing and holding people's territory by deadly violence. Thus a viewpoint morphs into a crime. Those prepared to meet this violence with violent retaliation are not doing it to suppress views but to put a stop to a crime.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 31 May 2013 10:43:19 PM
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The creator of the Muslim faith expressed a viewpoint in Arabia that Jews should be identified and murdered if they did not convert to Islam. He also advocated that Muslims should ethnically cleanse Arabia of Jews and Christians. This man also advocated a policy of Lebenstraum, encouraging Muslims to expand by military force.

The Jewish victims of this ethnic cleansing have returned to claim the land that they have lived upon for 3,700 years. They are returning the complement to the Muslims, although they are far more humane to their Muslim minorities within their lands, then the Muslims ever were to their minority Jews in theirs.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 1 June 2013 8:40:26 AM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

Can we communicate anything except our disagreement?

I wrote: <<Democracy in my opinion includes the protection of the minority from interference by the government except where such interference is vital to the survival of the nation.>>

You wrote: This is called 'liberalism', not 'democracy'. Democracies may be more liberal or otherwise, just like any other rule.

What I call democracy you call liberalism. I don’t regard a rule which does not protect the minority democratic. We define democracy differently.

I wrote: <<One of the areas that government has no business interfering with is a person's religious belief or lack of religious belief.>>

You wrote: That's obvious, but religion is so much more than belief: belief is cheap - religion means PRACTICE!

Here we disagree again. In a free society we can say almost anything. We cannot do almost anything. An example is polygamy. We are free to advocate polygamy. We are not free to practice polygamy.

You wrote: Certainly in my view as well. I would do anything to protect Singer had his religious practices or way of life been under threat, but it is not my duty to invite anyone into my own home.

Here we disagree again. You wanted to prevail on Graham Young not to invite Singer into olo, his home. I would not want to tell Graham Young who he could invite into his home.

I wrote: <<The protection of those with minority viewpoints is not only necessary in religious beliefs but for dissenting opinion in general.>>

You wrote: I agree of course, but protecting viewpoints and dissenting opinions is cheap. The crux of the matter and the big test is when those viewpoints call for actual practice, for an actual alternative way of life.

Here we disagree again. I don’t think we have any obligation to allow practice. Female genital mutilation, genocide, polygamy, suttee and burning dissenters at the stake are all practices accepted in other traditions than ours. We don’t have to allow any of them.

In a democratic society we can say almost anything, but we cannot do almost anything.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 1 June 2013 10:43:37 AM
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"When an international organ is used to single out Israel for censure on human rights while at the same time overlooking far more clear-cut and egregious examples from other countries, that is, by definition, bias, though not necessarily antisemitism. However, when this bias is repeated and reinforced with regularity, it is reasonable to raise the question whether antisemitism may be a motivation."

Is Israel "singled out" for censure on human rights? Would Israel like to compete with other countries for the position of most egregious? It could compete very well on scales of Human Rights Abuses, Genocide, Racism, and the flouting of United Nations declarations.

Let us be clear that in talking about Israel we are not talking about the many hundreds of thousands of Jews throughout the world who abhor racist Zionism and who are obviously not antisemitic.

We should speak out against evil wherever it happens and not be threatened by labels such as 'Jew haters'.
Posted by Stan1, Saturday, 1 June 2013 5:55:42 PM
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