Dear George,

People should be free to believe what they like or reject religious belief and to freely gather with others who have the same view. This should be no business of government. Under the czars the Orthodox church was an arm of the state and was an oppressor. Under the communists government actively campaigned against religion. Under neither government was there the separation of religion and state I support. Where religion owes nothing to the state it is free to point out excesses of government. Where there is separation government cannot use religion to advance its agenda. Marxism is a quasi-religious ideology which, like religion, demands belief in unprovable propositions. I see many similarities in czarist and communist Russia. Russia is still under an authoritarian figure who was a product of the Soviet secret police and crushes opposition.

These are the urls of stuff I have written on the subject of developments leading to the separation of state and church:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10790 - development of the separation in the early United States

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10725 - the right to heresy proceeding from Castellio's protest against the execution of Servetus

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15011 deals with moral relativism and cultural imperialism, a related subject

If I last long enough I could produce a book on the subject. I have not seen any book that pulls all this material on the history of the separation together. Topics that would be dealt with:

1. The union of church and state in the Roman Empire and its successor states
2. The Anabaptists challenge to the union
3. The right to heresy
4. Pax Islam - the enforcement of religious peace among Christian sects in the Ottoman Empire
5. Spinoza- the first secular man and his philosophy
6. The Enlightenment challenge to religious domination
7. The separation in European politics
8. The separation in US politics
9. The separation in non-Christian countries
10. The challenge of science to authoritarian religion
11. Development of secular education
12. Current status of the separation
13. Threats to the separation from non-religious and religious sources
14. Speculations on the future of the separation

Dear david f,

>>People should be free to believe what they like or reject religious belief and to freely gather with others who have the same view. This should be no business of government.<<

Of course, I agree and thanks for an interesting post including the linked reminders.

I think today practically everybody in the West is happy with separation of church/religion and state/government. (Of course, neither czarist nor Communist Russia did have one.) Only the meaning and practical implication of this separation is being disputed. For instance, you have separation in the US, not in Germany, but religion in the US is much more visible - more regular church-goers, politicians speaking about their personal beliefs, etc - than in Germany.

I see this separation is your hobby and I wish you “to last long enough” to produce a viable analysis of the complicated concept (not only as far as its history is concerned) without a very visible pro-religion or anti-religion bias.

As to Russia before and after 1917, there is nobody alive any more, who lived through both and could testify. Only a comparison of numbers leaving (or wanting to leave) Russia before and after 1917 would be indicative, but I am not sure they exist. Like comparing the number of people who tried to flee East Germany to live in West Germany with those fleeing the other way (similarly with North and South Korea, North and South Vietnam) could give us an idea about which country was more oppressive to its citizens even when we, outsiders, are unable to place ourselves in their respective positions.

Dear George,

Comparison of the number of those leaving czarist Russia with those leaving the Marxist states will tell us little because the Marxist states put more obstacles to leaving than did czarist Russia.

In the United States the separation has actually fostered religion. In the Scandinavian countries which have state churches and in the UK there is low church attendance. People in those countries rightfully feel that the state church is an arm of the state and they wish to have little to do with it. In Norway the state church is Lutheran. Lutherans who feel passionate about their religion set up independent congregations, and there is a flourishing Human Etisk (humanist) society. Many of the evangelical churches in the US have congregants who have a suspicion of both the government and the separation. They would tear down the separation but don't realise that they flourish because of it.

Dear david f,

>> the Marxist states put more obstacles to leaving than did czarist Russia.<<

Well, that is one indicator - important or not - of which regime was more oppressive, the czarist or the Communist. In absolute terms, or even in comparison to Western countries of their times, they were both.

Again, I agree with what you wrote in the last paragraph; it is the history or tradition of non-separation that you have in many European countries but not in the US.

I haven't read all the comments (22 at the time of writing, but i would have loved to be comment Number 1!!) I was there at the Congress as well, and was equally astounded by his presentation. so glad you have logged it here Babette. Thank you! the only thing I was rather quizzical about was the concept of trusting the Russians with our Internet security.. somehow I am not quite there yet.. it seems strange somehow..

Dear George,

Separation did not come all at once to the US. Massachusetts had a state church until 1838. History gets rewritten to serve ideological conceits. The Pilgrims came to Massachusetts not for religious freedom but to set up a theocracy. Conservatives in Massachusetts got rid of the state church when a liberal faction took over the church. That made a state church undesirable. In several states laws still exist which don't allow people of unapproved beliefs or religious positions to run for office.

When one looks closer there is a tradition of non-separation in the US and a tradition of separation in Europe. Those are two trends I would tell about in my book on the separation.