Dear david f,

There is nothing in your post I would disagree with. I admit that probably not all medieval Christians and Jews believed in a 6000 year old earth; the same, of course, about contemporary American Christians.

We already had here a discussion on Castello and Servetus as described in Stefan Zweig’s book in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9292#153722 and the sequel.

Russia was once a great Christian nation. Then they forgot God and corruption set in. That paved the way for the revolution of 1917 which saw the nation taken captive by totalitarian thugs for some 70yrs. (Sort of sounds like where the West is headed!) Today Russia is working it way back to greatness. It will be difficult as the nation is now close to majority Muslim with many Salafis and jihadis in its midst.

Putin recognises that Russia was great when Russia was Christian -- he looks to the days of Peter the Great. People criticise him for being photographed shirtless on horseback, in black-belt judo gear, mountain hiking, swimming in wild rivers etc etc -- but he is actually very determined to present an alternative role model to the despairing alcoholic left in the wake of godless, hopeless Communism. He goes to church, promotes Christian values, doesn't drink any alcohol and doesn't sleep around. Western leaders villify him - even Western Church leaders - but we would all like our politicians to be a bit more like him in so many ways! WHile there is creeping repression - much of it IS linked to the the threat of Islamic terrorism and Western belligerence.

Overall, the situation in Russia is very encouraging --- it is the West's perpetual Russia-hatred that bothers me. I mean the US talks and acts as if the Cold War never ended!

THe West has been fearful of Russian expansion for hundreds of years - and have usually allied with Muslims (Turks and then Arabs) to hem Russia in - even to prevent them from defending Eastern Christians. The victims of this struggle = the Eastern Christians who suffer under Islam. From the Crimea (1853) to Syria (today) the story has been the same!

Another interesting thing about Russia: once known for its anti-Semitism, Russia is developing a pro-Israel causus within its parliament. An Israeli delegation recently met with influential Christian leaders to talk about garnering support for Israel and forming Russia-Israel alliance.
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Pro-Israel-caucus-forming-in-Russian-parliament-314341

Dear Elizabeth Kendal,

Before 1917 when Russia was a Christian nation it was also oppressive to most of its people. For all except the nobility it was not a good place. Jews and other Russians fled czarist Russia in droves. Russia was powerful when it was Christian, but it was also not a good place for most people to live. Corruption and the Orthodox church went hand in hand. Alcoholism did not start under communism.

There were two revolutions in 1917 – one in which the czar was overthrown and the second in which the communists took power. If Russia had been a good place for most people to live neither revolution would have been a success.

Communism is godless and hopeless.

Russia under the czars was godly and hopeless.

The revolutions in Russia in 1917 were a product of despair.

Communism offered hope, but it was a false hope. The pie-in-the-sky-bye-and-bye of Christianity is also a false hope.

The west was not continuously hostile to Russia. The US was consistently friendly to czarist Russian. The Russian upper classes spoke French and the admiration was returned. The Napoleonic invasion and the Crimean War were exceptions in what were generally friendly relations.

A. C. Grayling wrote:

I would wish people to live without superstition, to govern their lives with reason, and to conduct their relationships on reflective principles about what we owe one another as fellow voyagers through the human predicament – with kindness and generosity wherever possible, and justice always. None of this requires religion or the empty name of ‘god.’ Indeed once this detritus of our ignorant past has been cleared away, we might see more clearly the nature of the good, and pursue it aright at last.

As far as Putin’s macho posturing goes we have had too many of these strutting peacocks. Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln and other leaders who wish to set humans free from slavery of different kinds and to question authority whatever its source are much better role models than Putin who has reporters who question his rule murdered.

Dear George,

I know I have mentioned Castellio before to you. However, other people read these posts. I feel he was a much greater man than the much better known Calvin and Luther so I mentioned him again.

Dear david f,

>>However, other people read these posts. <<
This is exactly the reason I called attention to our earlier discussion.

As to your reference to Russia before 1917 you are right that it was less democratic than its contemporaries in the West (no point comparing it with a modern Western country), in particular Jews were more discriminated against, if not worse, than in Western countries of those times. After all “pogrom” is a Russian word and was not invented by Hitler (as even some Germans think). On the other hand, I do not know about “Jews and other Russians” fleeing Russia “in droves” before 1917 more than after 1917. I do not have the statistics to compare only know of many Russian intellectuals who fled Russia AFTER 1917.

You are so right to distinguish between the menshevik and bolshevik revolutions, between Kerensky and Lenin. This distinction is often used by conservatives to warn against abrupt changes lest a “Kerensky (democratic) revolution” gets kidnapped by a “Lenin (worse-than-undemocratic) revolution”.

I think it is clear now that Communism offered a false hope and most Christians agree that “divine kingdom on this earth” was also a false hope. However, Christian hope as such is unfalsifiable since it is “not of this world” (meaningless, of course, to an atheist).

Not only “the west was not continuously hostile to Russia” but also vice versa, c.f. the Zapadniki as opposed to Slavophiles. There were traditionally not only French but also German cultural influences (there are many Russian words that are just German words written in azbuka). And today, when Angela Merkel and Putin meet, they probably do not need an interpreter since they both speak the other’s language, although I feel Merkel’s Russian is better than Putin’s German.

As to whether a post-Christian society does or does not need “religion or the empty name of ‘god” as Grayling put it, only time (measured in generations, not years) will tell. So far only the Communist experiment was brought to conclusion, and it does not seem to support Grayling.