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The Forum > Article Comments > What happened to getting to heaven? > Comments

What happened to getting to heaven? : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 26/2/2013

John Locke, that doyen of empiricism, stated that: 'Our first and chiefest interest is how we may get to heaven.'

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Typical Sells arrogance. As a person of faith he can have absolutely no understanding of the life of those - like me - who he refers to as having a 'buffered self'. My world is not flat and dull - it is full of wonder and delight engendered by both the natural and made world, including art. My mind is not closed to 'things unseen', just to religious gobbledegook and the sense of superiority it engenders people like Sells. In fact, as someone who knows that when I die, that's it, I have far more invested in making the most of my finite existence
Posted by Candide, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 9:41:09 AM
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It is with thorough delight that I read this article, deep and subtle - How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!

The key point obviously is:

"The waters are muddied by our tendency to convert what is essentially a theological argument into one of natural science"

I wonder how many readers, including the Christians among us, are in a position to understand this.

While Peter Sellick is a Christian and I am not, this article is not limited to Christianity. Jesus was probably one, but not the only one, who by his personal example was able to encourage others to die to the world, to abandon one's attachment to nature, thereby attaining eternal life.

It is not a mental idea, such as "Jesus is my personal saviour" which brings salvation, real life and freedom, but the actuality of personally following Jesus' (or anyone else's) example and renouncing the false life, that which is engrossed with one's body and mind.

God be with you, Peter.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 4:00:55 PM
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McReal

'Or, someone else wrote something alleging a Jesus character said it. '

Yes nice convenient way not to be able to face up to the truths Jesus taught including heaven and hell.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 6:00:11 PM
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Candide, don't be concerned by Peter's ongoing mental derangement. Get about living your authentic life, one based upon reality, and making every day count.

Reality eventually catches up with those who base their lives upon wishful thinking and fairy tales.

It happens when when they find out they can't get their money back or their wasted lives.
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 7:53:43 PM
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runner,
the truths include

1. heaven & hell are merely unproven propositions

2. there is no primary evidence for Jesus - all the stories are later, and probably later than 100AD/CE. The writings attributed to 'Paul' mention an established church so are likely written after the synoptic gospels, and by more than one author.

3. There are no artifacts or archaeological findings that support the stories - none.

4. There is only information about the early followers of the early stories, and various sects following various beliefs.

5. We know the stories were changing: the changes from the early bibles - Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Vaticanus - are there to see.
.
Posted by McReal, Thursday, 28 February 2013 9:26:45 AM
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McReal

The most common view among biblical scholars is that Paul’s letters were written over many years but before the gospels, perhaps between 50-70CE. If Paul’s later writing was about 30 years after the likely date of Jesus’ death, the existence of communities of Jesus followers is highly likely. Caligula’s persecution of Christians in 65CE demonstrates that the movement had reached Rome by then.

Some of the “Pauline” material was written and/or edited by later authors, but much was written by Paul. The pastoral epistles are relatively late. The Gospels were probably written between 70-100, with John commonly believed to be the latest and Mark the earliest. Some scholars propose that Mark might have been written in the 60s, before the fall of Jerusalem, but most think its “little apocalypse” was written shortly after, with the siege of Jerusalem in mind.

There are discrepancies between early manuscripts, but these are mostly minor textual variations, not substantial:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_codices_Sinaiticus_and_Vaticanus

What kind of artefacts could there be that support the biblical stories? There is certainly supporting evidence for the broad historical context – Pilate, the emperors, events in Palestine mentioned by the gospels. In the unlikely event that the relics traded in the early or medieval church were authentic (e.g. fragments of the “true cross”) their authenticity is unprovable and they would (rightly) not be accepted as scientific evidence.

Heaven is likewise not a “provable” proposition. I agree with Peter that the idea of personal survival beyond death is unlikely given our current knowledge about the human identity.

The most important point is that Jesus’ message was not primarily about how to get a ticket to the afterlife, but about how we live this life.
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 28 February 2013 12:17:37 PM
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