I am something rare for someone of my advanced years, a third generation atheist. I don’t think my parents or my grandparents would have labelled themselves atheists but that is effectively what they were.

To be clear about what I mean by "atheist".

I do not know whether there exists some being or entity that could be called the "creator of the universe." What is more I don’t ever expect to know.

But I am as certain as it is possible to be about these things that "God" as that is understood at least among practitioners of the "Abrahamic" religions does not exist. I am equally sceptical about the existence of the Hindu Gods.

However I am fascinated by the phenomenon of religion and its persistence.

It has always struck me that religion offers certain services that cannot easily be replicated by secular institutions of which the most important is community. By joining a religion you acquire a community and that is no small thing in a big city.

You get to meet people in a safe and trusting environment. You are accepted for what you are and who you are.

It can even be a global community. I know that I can go to any orthodox synagogue in any city that has one and I immediately have the nucleus of a network. No one is going to ask me whether I truly believe that Moses received the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai.

Religious communities provide human support in times of stress and a group to share joy in times of happiness. They provide a venue in which you can receive counselling in a non-threatening way.

The difficulties arise when religions become imperial. By that I don’t mean that they proselytise but when they want to impose their dogma on others

We all suddenly appear in this frightening chaotic dream world. Nobody really knows how or why.
We all know that we could be snuffed out in any minute. People therefore huddle together in their fear and create collective stories/narratives which seem to reassure them in their hell deep fear and trembling. But all the while the fear and trembling is always there just below the surface of our normal dreadful sanity.

Some enduring stories/narratives persist for many centuries and even millenia.But even most of the contents of those stories/narratives were created by people who, in their time, had no more real understanding of our situation than we moderns.

In general, what people want, and, therefore what religious institutions tend to provide is consoling social associations and optimistic talk, perhaps in combination with self-applied tecniques that people can use as means for consoling themselves.

Therefore, in the modern world, instead of cultures of right practices, there are religions which are essentially businesses and social clubs (where coffee, tea and cake are on offer).

Such gathering do not demonstrate any kind of profundity. Indeed they generally have no idea re how to cultivate any kind of profundity.

This is perhaps the longest and most discursive apology for telling lies I have ever read.

"Narrative theologians look for the story that unfolds within the Bible rather than seeing the Bible as a source for developing systematic theology."

Translation: we make up stuff that sounds good.

Next week at St. John's -- how Jesus and Peter took the Ring to Hell, and Judas snatched it away before falling into the lake of brimstone.

stevenmeyer,

Yes, there's no evidence for the existence of of any deity, deities or indeed the supernatural.

I'm certainly a second generation atheist, if there are genes for religion I don't have any, I just can't believe. Religious belief is probably a quirk of evolution, i.e. a product of those beliefs and behaviours that conferred survival advantages.

The problem is that proselytising, which also reinforces the believer's ideology, often results in theocracy. Ideally, the religious should be free to practise as long as they obey the laws of the secular state and leave the infidels alone.

a load of waffle that parades as intellectual but is really simply unbelief. I'll stick to the doctors, science Proffessors, the garbage collectors, the cleaners etc and the occassional pollie who is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He is the Only way to salvation and any other waffle is a denial of simple truth. No wonder the Anglican church is in such a poor state. The believers still in the Anglican church must be in despair.

Every living being including Black Ducks with attitude "problems" has the heart based instinct of Infinite Life. That instinct, that urge must be allowed, cultivated, even educated. Sacrd culture happens only if human beings create it. Otherwise it does not happen. in that case the secular domain becomes a kind of self-contained culture, a culture in and of itself, fulfilling to a greater or lesser degree, only the civic aspects of human existence, the more mundane aspects of human life.

Human beings must understand that the transcending of mortality is what they are purposed for, what they are Living for. To literally go up in a blaze of Light.
Human beings are not alive in Earth merely to be cogs in the machine of hoped (hyped) for progress towards utopia - merely to sing their cricket song, make a baby or two, and then drop dead.
No. There is also the impulse based on the knowledge that this human birth is a mortal condition. It is the urge to Find What Is Greater, and to be INCLUDED In That.

When the sacred domain is suppressed, ignored, forgotten, and trivialized by the naive exoteric religiosity such as promoted by Peter Catt, human culture produces nothing but a "stage play" that goes on and on and on, even while allthe "players" keep dying. In that case, human life has no purpose greater than mere reproduction, simply for the purpose of ensuring that the "play" goes on.

Such is merely a mortal drama, which is in no way satsfactory enough for the human heart. Human beings are heart-urged to Find What Is Greater than that, to Find a connectedness to What Is Greater than that, to participate in the Real transcending of mortality. Rather than the ersatz telling of mere stories.

Surely it’s time we stopped trying to drag medieval mumbo jumbo into the modern world?

For those of us who were around two thousand years ago, we predicted this would all end in tears.

As a believer in reincarnation I well remember the discussions we had when the Roman Empire collapsed. Some said we would move to a secular society, others followed Judaism and Christianity as the Sun Gods took a back seat. With the advent of Islam it was clear that if you don’t like the religious rules, start a new religion.

As at 2010 there are 34,000 registered religions on our planet and of course, they are all correct.

If there is a benign creator it certainly did not pass the message on to “its” followers as they wouldn’t understand “benign” if it bit them on the bum. Sorry, that’s not very benign is it?

If all the Gods to which you variously subscribe had a single message for all of you it would be “Get a Life”.

Can’t you find something a little more productive to do with your “God given brains”?

'Can’t you find something a little more productive to do with your “God given brains”? '

Well lets see Spindoc we could 'get a life ' by

we could close our eyes to the obvious, turn off our brains and swallow the something from nothing myth

we could ignore our conscience, create our own morality and kill all the unborn and oldies. who is to tell us we are wrong.

of course we could continue to enjoy the miseries of the current Government or enjoy our football team winning and stick our heads in the sand and secularism continues to lead multitudes to suicide and depression.

then again we could just eat drink and be merry and then spend eternity in hell.

you see as the good book says only fools say their is no god.

Given that JC was the original story-teller via the parables, there is nothing new about post-modernism for christianity, its just the secular world running to catch up.

In narrative theory, reality is created by the stories that we tell about ourselves and that others tell about us.

However just because someone adds to the original/earlier story, it doesn't make the addition true and accurate. Simply an add-on for consideration and the bible that we have is a conglomeration created for the satisfaction of a politician who wanted to use it to his own ends; Constantine.

My views are fundamental in that Christ was a Passover entity and not easter, which is more accurately Ishtar the pagan god, which my Christ would perceive as an anathema and abhorrent. But then is the church you deify a god-head or satanic by nature? Saul was a political animal who claimed his revelation along the Damascus road whilst in the company of his friends and my reading of scripture seems to indicate that it was Saul/Paul who set up the Roman church, perhaps to get the troublesome Christians out of Israel for the leaders of the Temple?

My point is; Christ is the focus of Christianity, not a church and certainly not a person and his group who taught contrary to Christ. In my opinion, many today who claim to be christians are in fact leading people away from Christ and where are they leading who knows?

Sorry runner, I know you have strong religious values. The problem you have is that they are your values.

Runner <<we could close our eyes to the obvious, turn off our brains and swallow the something from nothing myth>>

No, we could open our eyes to reality, switch ON our brains and ignore medieval myths.

The current government, killing old people and babies, enjoying football, eating and drinking are SYMPTOMS of religion and not the causes.

You can continue to threaten humanity with Hell, and the teachings of the “good book”, but in the end it is your good book and your teachings.

Stop examining your own insecurity in public, stick to what you believe in and stop ramming your faith down everyone else’s throat.

I believe in reincarnation, I have been around for thousands of years and my greatest fear is that I might come back as YOU

spindoc

'I believe in reincarnation, I have been around for thousands of years and my greatest fear is that I might come back as YOU '

thank God we have the free will to believe even deceptions like reincarnation. btw you don't display the wisdom of someone who has been around 10 years let alone a thousand or more.

Peter,
While I agree with you on the importance of narrative theology I am in some doubt of the way you oppose it to systematic theology. Surely systematics is the result of narrative. New Testament narrative makes no sense without the doctrine of the Trinity. Rather than an exclusive focus I would rather see narrative and systematics (or dogmatics) working hand in glove. Narrative alone is not enough, and dogmatics alone is not enough.
Peter Sellick

Because from next week I will not be participating in this forum any more please find a set of references which outshine all of the usual stuff about the mommy-daddy "creator"-God at the root of conventional exoteric religion.

Transcendental Realism & Radical Narrative
http://www.cesnur.org/2009/slc_skalsky.htm
The Forgotten Esotericism
http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm
A Prophetic Critique of the "Great" religions
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-2.htm
On the self-serving nature of conventional exoteric religion - from The Truth Book
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/aletheon/truth-religion.aspx
http://global.adidam.org/truth-book/true-spiritual-practice-4.html

A shocking description of what Western culture (in particular) is really all about
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/ontranscendingtheinsubordinatemind.html

On Science, religion & culture
http://www.dabase.org/Reality_Itself_Is_Not_In_The_Middle.htm
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/17_companions/paradigms/real_god_is.html

Sells,
>> Rather than an exclusive focus I would rather see narrative and systematics (or dogmatics) working hand in glove. Narrative alone is not enough, and dogmatics alone is not enough. <<

I agree. With a suitable “plastic surgery” on the two sentences I get:

Rather than an exclusive focus I would rather see the focus on the “God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob”, and the focus on the God of (some) philosophers and scientists working hand in glove. The Book of Scripture alone is not enough, and the Book of Nature alone is not enough.

It represents exactly the position I have been trying to defend in earlier debates with you.

Dear Steven,

<<I do not know whether there exists some being or entity that could be called the "creator of the universe." What is more I don’t ever expect to know.>>

Why should it matter? The creation of the universe (if indeed it occurred) was an ordinary temporal event, so if indeed there was a creator, then he/she/it was an ordinary being, not God, not someone worth wasting your time and devotion on!

<<But I am as certain as it is possible to be about these things that "God" as that is understood at least among practitioners of the "Abrahamic" religions does not exist. I am equally sceptical about the existence of the Hindu Gods.>>

Indeed. What's existence got to do with God? Why that obsession with existence in the first place? Existence is mundane and of no consequence.
Theism has its advantages, but as an atheist your religion benefits from knowing that God does not exist, it has the advantage of not falling into the illusion as if He does.

God is to be loved - with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength - unconditionally. It is not for man to place silly conditions on God such as expecting Him to exist... wishing to drag Him down with you into this worldly mire just because one finds it convenient for their own temporary existence.

<<By joining a religion you acquire a community and that is no small thing in a big city.>>

Either you join a group that is dedicated to support each other coming closer to God, or you are just in for the nice chit-chat.

Yuyutsu has delivered us an amazing message:

"God is to be loved - with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength - unconditionally. It is not for man to place silly conditions on God such as expecting Him to exist."

So I should unconditionally love someone or something that might not exist? Gawd struth!

Can someone provide a phone number or email address where this 'god' can be contacted? I have several issues I'd like to raise with him or her...or it. Babies born with cancer is one of them. Nominating Jews as his special children is another. Priestly molestation...the list goes on.

P.S. God is dog backwards! That is deeply significant.

Dear David,

<<So I should unconditionally love someone or something that might not exist?>>

I did not claim the above:

1) God is not a someone or a something.
2) It's not that God "might not exist" - God DOES not exist.
3) There are no SHOULDs, so do as you please: what I wrote was addressed to Stevenlmeyer, whom I believe is a sincere aspirant. Loving God unconditionally has a profound effect on the aspirant, but if you are not, if you rather continue suffering in this world of illusion, then this statement was not intended for you.

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

(W.B. Yeats)