Yuyutsu, your idealist utopia is the fairytale in this discussion.
Santa would be proud.

“allowing people to live physically on the same land (that is off-topic),”

No, that's part of the topic if living together *must* be mutually consensual.
Plenty of Australians object to the current immigration policy. They aren't consulted or consenting.

“We are individuals who happen to live in the same region.”

So you just popped into existence out of thin air?
No ancestors, no history explains your presence.
You just “happen to live here”.

Did you consent to be born? Then your parents were “violent” in “imposing” life on you.
Follow your own logic, and you'd have to kill yourself, since your entire existence isn't “consensual”.

“if you consider violence legitimate, then it's a war”

I don't agree with your definition of “violence”.
Living in a society built by your ancestors, because you were born there is not “violence”.
I find your philosophy the misanthropic one.

“So you consider it right to forcibly take other people's land”

Nobody is taking anyone's land by having one national government.
You still own your farm and can grow whatever you want.

“I would try to nicely convince people against such”

Yes, be nice to the Muslim separatists. Why am not shocked at the wimpiness?

“So a PR/CIR can prevent me from practising my religion? Or slay me and distribute my blood for the rest to drink?”

What do you think is the probability of a *national* vote supporting such extremes?
Now, in a self-segregated “non-community” of like-minded extremist individuals, that could happen.
But you've been “outside” too long if you think Australians-in-general would.

You'll get your “war” one day (niceness won't stop it, but it will stop us *preventing* it).
And nobody will care if you survive, since you're not part of any “community” or “nation”.

Here lies Individual. Happened to be here 1961-2018.

Dear Shockadelic,

Please allow me to skip the topic of immigration as I am not really interested in it at the moment, my time now is limited, nor is it directly related to this topic.

<<So you just popped into existence out of thin air? No ancestors, no history explains your presence. You just “happen to live here”.>>

The question "why are we here?" is again beyond the scope of this topic. Suffice that the reason why we are here, at least for some of us, is NOT in order to form communities and nations, that we have much more important missions to accomplish during our short stay in this world.

<<Living in a society built by your ancestors, because you were born there is not “violence”.>>

Children are excused because they don't know better, but once you grow up and understand how states operate and oppress others, yet still uphold the state, then you are an accomplice to violence.

<<You still own your farm and can grow whatever you want.>>

You mean Marijuana?!?

If you are not sovereign, if you are not allowed to live how you want on your land, then that land is not yours!

<<Yes, be nice to the Muslim separatists>>

Ah, so that's what's on your mind... you will need to decide whether they pose a physical threat to Australians: if so, then it's a matter of self-defence and the state has a legitimate right to fight them. Not so, however, if these Muslims only wish to have their own segregated life without harming anybody else.

<<What do you think is the probability of a *national* vote supporting such extremes?>>

You never know, see Nazi Germany.

<<Now, in a self-segregated “non-community” of like-minded extremist individuals, that could happen.>>

No problem if I freely chose to be part-thereof.

<<And nobody will care if you survive, since you're not part of any “community” or “nation”.>>

Correct. You don't owe me my survival.

I might even like to be part of your community/nation, but so long as it forces itself on non-consenting others, that would be morally wrong.

"skip the topic of immigration... nor is it directly related to this topic."

You argue for governments voluntarily formed, yet immigration is *changing* our demographics, and therefore the types of government created.

You claim existence as an individual only, but you do not and cannot actually live as one.
You *must* live in a community, reliant on others, and this one was *not* created by Zulus, Tibetans or Eskimos.

"the reason why we are here is NOT in order to form communities and nations"

So why have we done it forever?
You don't have to form what's already there.

"You never know, see Nazi Germany."

Where was the *democracy* there?

"No problem if I freely chose to be part-thereof."

And the "children who don't know better"?
They have to live under the extremist regional government too.

Are you okay with delusional indoctrination as "education", FGM, infanticide of sick/deformed children, sacrificing firstborns to the Thunder God?

"You don't owe me my survival."

You only survive at all thanks to the "community/nation" you deny exists.
You owe your survival to generations of people who made an effort because they felt part of something, not just for me-me-me.

So much of your life was never "consented" to, yet you do and must use these "imposed" norms.

Did you "choose" the Roman alphabet?
The English language?
The 24 hour clock, with 12 hour face and hands moving to the right?
The Gregorian calendar?
The Dewey library system?
Decimal numbers?
Kilometres?
Dollars and cents?
Driving on the left?
AC electricity?
Barcodes?
Days of the week named after ancient gods?

Are you "oppressed" by these "violent" impositions?
Or are these practical standards necessary because you don't live as an individual, you live *with* other people, and these are the standards in the community/nation Australia.

So many things in life are not "chosen" or "consented to", yet you must adapt to them.
Only dreams is anything possible.
When you wake up, there are limits.

"we have much more important missions to accomplish during our short stay in this world."

Mission impossible, in your case.

Dear Shockadelic,

<<Mission impossible, in your case.>>

It isn't one's duty to succeed: while we may try our best to succeed, success is ultimately not in our hands, a supernova could come for example and wipe all life off earth in a fraction of a second, but it IS our duty to attempt living according to good principles such as non-violence, regardless of the results.

Cooperating with a state that forces itself upon people without their consent, aids-and-abets violence.

<<You claim existence as an individual only, but you do not and cannot actually live as one.>>

Since when is my survival your business?
(so long as my corpse won't upset your smell)

<<You *must* live in a community, reliant on others>>

Firstly, it's not a must: I may die otherwise, but that would be my own problem (or pleasure).

Secondly, even if I live and rely on a community, it need not be YOUR community. I'm entitled to choose the people I want to live with and mutually rely on.

<<Where was the *democracy* there?>>

Hitler was democratically elected!

<<They have to live under the extremist regional government too.>>

But hopefully the regional regime will be LESS oppressive than the current central one, not more. Most of us are not Muslim extremists, you know.

<<Are you okay with delusional indoctrination as "education", FGM, infanticide of sick/deformed children, sacrificing firstborns to the Thunder God?>>

I don't like it, but if I were to oppose it violently in others who never sought my protection, then I would become no better.

<<the Roman alphabet? The English language? The 24 hour clock...>>

Those who find these oppressive (and there are some), ought to be able to live in their own corner of the world where these do not apply.

My basic moral standard is non-violence - that's not to say that according to my morality YOU must be non-violent, my morality only applies to myself. You will eventually need to face God and your own conscience, but meanwhile, if you or your state are violent, then it is my moral imperative not to cooperate.

"Since when is my survival your business?"

Couldn't care less. Simply stating a fact.
You cannot exist in any sense but pure animalism (eat, sleep) without other people.

<<You *must* live in a community, reliant on others>>

"Firstly, it's not a must"

It is if you want any kind of life resembling "human".
You're just speaking in theoretical/hypothetical mumbo-jumbo.
I'm talking about the *real world*.

"Hitler was democratically elected!"

And then?
Did the German people know what the exact policy outcomes would be?
Before anything truly nasty happened, elections had ceased.

"Most of us are not Muslim extremists, you know."

No, but you're proposing that the ones who are (and any other form of extremism) can set up their own government, and we should just be "nice" about it.

<<Are you okay with delusional indoctrination as "education", FGM, infanticide of sick/deformed children, sacrificing firstborns to the Thunder God?>>

"I don't like it, but if I were to oppose it violently in others who never sought my protection, then I would become no better."

So the answer is Yes, you would accept a misopedist government.
But you would be "nice" enough to move out of that neighbourhood.

<<the Roman alphabet? The English language? The 24 hour clock...>>

"Those who find these oppressive (and there are some), ought to be able to live in their own corner of the world where these do not apply."

I believe the walls there are padded.

The point is that in *this* corner of the world (Australia) you can't.

We can't all just have our own calendars and clocks.
Nobody will understand anyone.

Be here at 2'Oclock Monday?
No, Sanjack moq 55 Reznot.
Straitjacket! Emergency!

"You will eventually need to face God and your own conscience"

Only, apparently, if I "consent".

"meanwhile, if you or your state are violent, then it is my moral imperative not to cooperate."

Off to your hermit shack then, Yuyutsu.
Finish that (non-violent) manifesto.

Dear Shockadelic,

I have no joy talking with you as your argument is based neither on principles nor on goodness, but on coercive power ("The point is that in *this* corner of the world (Australia) you can't.").