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The Forum > Article Comments > Time for action on the price of electricity > Comments

Time for action on the price of electricity : Comments

By Damian Sullivan, published 7/12/2012

Energy affordability needs to be high on the agenda for today's COAG.

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Does the Plan for Affordable Energy include campaigning for repeal of the pointless Carbon Tax? And if not, why not?
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 7 December 2012 4:18:30 PM
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The eco-Left wanted energy prices to be high so we we wouldn't be trashing the planet with that abominable plant food, CO2. Its all backfired, predictably of course, and now Gillard the champion of the Carbon Tax price hike, wants the cost to be lower?? She let the Labor state premiers rake in a fortune with energy price hikes but now the Libs are in power in the states she wants to deprive them of the same income while jealously guarding her expensive Carbon Tax.

Gillard is the complete hypocrite on this one.
Posted by Atman, Friday, 7 December 2012 5:07:27 PM
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Contrary to the authors argument, I think Jenny is on the right track. Could it be that Jenny lives alone (what a huge waste of resources if so) and having an electric hot water system heat water for one person is incredibly wasteful ! Pooled (no pun intended) use of resources is a great idea.

Assuming we believe the Scientists, I am not sure why the author ignores the futures users of the Planet ? Jenny is simply at the fore front of a changed system, we need a complete rethink on society moving forward, getting her (or anyone) cheap polluting energy, ensuring profligacy, is not the answer.

I have a solar hot water system with a big resevor, it's not hooked up to power. When the Sun doesn't heat the water, that's to bad, I also moved to a milder climate to ensure that the "too bad" was not unbearable. One suggestion might be for Jenny to do the same.
Posted by Valley Guy, Friday, 7 December 2012 6:11:23 PM
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...My power bill comes in at $2.20 per day. That in relative terms is less than half the daily cost of my bread supply. $2.20 per day includes the cost of hot water, heated without solar assistance, supplying two separate units.

...So what do I do that is different? Firstly, as Valley Guy suggested, a move to a warmer climate is a big factor in power savings. I use no power at all for heating or cooling. The climate in winter is very mild and the cooling breeze off the sea in summer is with the compliments of “Mother Nature”.

...I also use a metho stove which is economic, in place of the electric range which I have but don’t use. I have previous experience living for many years in locations with no electricity, so basically I ignore the stuff. The smell of kerosene lights and refrigerators is familiar; (what about kerosene TV’s and kerosene computers for the modern age); bath at the beach and simply turn off Julia’s Carbon Tax at the meter-box: Brilliant, what great advice.

...Bob Brown and the Greens would love us all to do just that. But I’ll make a wild guess here, no politician will be turning off their power supply in order to pay the rent!
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 7 December 2012 8:41:04 PM
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"There are also risks, however, with this aspect of the proposed reform. Before such a measure is introduced, we need to make sure vulnerable households are not disadvantaged. Currently, we don't have enough information about how time of use pricing would affect low-income households or other vulnerable customers. This needs urgent investigation."

The author is being irresponsible in calling for time of use (TOU) pricing when he does not know what the effect would be on the vulnerable households.

As most households probably would find it impractical to move most of their consumption to non-peak times, their total electricity bills probably would increase with TOU pricing. This certainly would be the case if non-peak tariffs are left unchanged when the higher peak tariff is implemented -- precisely what happened when TOU tolls were implemented for the Sydney Harbour tunnel and bridge -- a devious way of increasing the electricity retailers' revenue. Besides, consumers would have to pay for installation of the TOU meters, estimated to cost at least $250. Consequently, even more households are likely to become vulnerable.

The PM's assertion (or should that be propaganda) that new measures including TOU pricing would reduce electricity prices by $250, should be taken with a grain of salt, especially as there is no move to abandon the renewable energy target (RET), the attainment of which is designed to raise electricity prices substantially.
Posted by Raycom, Friday, 7 December 2012 10:25:57 PM
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All commentators on this subject fail to answer the basic question, which is how do State governments raise the money they need while still getting elected? Nick Greiner did it by stealing the electricity assets in NSW (which had been paid for and belonged to the customers, not to the NSW government), and then forced the payment of a yearly dividend. Later governments sold the stolen assets, and allowed the new owners to rip us off. I have repeatedly suggested a voluntary method whereby billions could be raised each year without compulsion. This would be to tax sex. Each adult would have to decide each year whether or not to have sex. A "yes" answer would mean the need to buy a sex licence; a "no" answer would require a virgin permit. These permits would be interchangeable at any time, and both would cost $5,000 per year. People could decide to buy neither, but without a licence a man would commit an offence if he approached within 10 metres of any woman, and a woman without a permit could not prosecute a charge of rape.

Having disposed of the simple problem of financing government, which has been suggested to the governments of Europe, Japan and the USA, I can, if respondents wish, read my simple solutions to the middle east problem, overpopulation, pollution, squaring the circle, and any other difficulties that exist.
Posted by plerdsus, Saturday, 8 December 2012 10:46:22 AM
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Julia Gillard wants to reduce our electricity prices.

There's another squadron of pigs flying over head.

Idiots in publicly supported welfare jobs, try to actually believe the spin, & even try to convince us it's true.

God help us.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 8 December 2012 11:11:41 AM
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Juliar wants to be seen to be doing something about power prices. It is all about gesture politics.

The $250 p.a. savings is a maximum amount which contingent upon the householders changing their consumption habits, and at best will only happen in 3+ years.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 9 December 2012 2:43:06 PM
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Jon J - Carbon Tax Repeal

No, our Plan for Affordable Energy doesn't include campaigning for the repeal, because (for the BSL):
- of the compensation and assistance through the tax/transfer system,
- the importance of other drivers of prices, particularly networks
- the need to address Australia's emissions in a cost effective way. The full report from Oakley Greenwood has reference to the carbon price.

Valley Guy

The sense I got from "Jenny" was she didn't enjoy having to switch off the hot water. If environmental sustainability requires use of collective showers - it may be a hard sell. Many of the households we talk to would be keen to undertake more environmentally sustainable and cost effective action. Unfortunately for many the upfront cost of a solar hot water system is prohibitive. Often for people like Jenny (and like me) moving isn't always that straight-forward.

Raycom

There is quite a bit of work on the impacts of TOU, we think there needs to be more.

The modelling we have seen, from Victoria and internationally, suggests that many households on low incomes will benefit from switching to TOU. It depends on multiple factors including the differential in prices during peak / shoulder/ off peak; the timing for the period; whether the household is on dual fuel. Importantly it needs to be opt-in. Take for example a pensioner couple, who spend a significant amount of time at home. If the pricing has a shoulder period during the day, which is lower than the current rate, under a number of plausible scenarios they will benefit. AT present those without air-conditioners are subsidising those with air-conditioners. TOU isn't the only option, others like cycling air conditioners down for short periods may be effective. We're particularly interested in getting more detail on larger low income households.
A big issue will be whether households can understand and compare the different tariff options - this is hard enough all ready.

Shadow Minister

You're right, many of the savings will take considerable time to be realised. To reach the $250 figure will also be a real challenge
Posted by Damian S, Monday, 10 December 2012 4:49:59 PM
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Even pensioners cook the evening meal between 2pm & 8pm.
Even their houses get hot between 2pm & 8pm, sunset around 7pm.

The dopey idea is to force the natural time to have meals etc to be
at an unnatural time of day.
The electricity system has to cater for nature, not nature cater for the electricity system.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 10 December 2012 5:52:49 PM
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You know, when I was indulging in "collective" showering, they always took much much longer than the solo type.

On the other hand, I used to run a company that marketed water/energy saving equipment, including showers, mostly to the hospitality & health care industries.

The repayment period for a quality 6 liter/minute shower was only about 1000 showers, a year or so in one bathroom families. Introduction of on suites in homes, defence force accommodation & in hospitals had a very detrimental effect on pay back periods.

According to our figures in the 90s, very few solar hot water systems had repaid their purchase price, before they required replacement.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 10 December 2012 9:30:59 PM
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Damian S: " The modelling we have seen, from Victoria and internationally, suggests that many households on low incomes will benefit from switching to TOU. ... We're particularly interested in getting more detail on larger low income households. "

That observation may be sufficient to convince the unprincipled politicians responsible for penalising all Australians with unjustifiably high electricity prices, but it leaves a lot to be desired for someone who supposedly goes in to bat for low income households. Let's see the numbers that support your assertion.
Posted by Raycom, Tuesday, 11 December 2012 10:26:02 PM
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Can someone in Melbourne with a smart meter tell us the times of the
different rates and what are the different rate charges.
If possible the standard rates, not the discount rate from the brokers.

Unless we know these figures it is very difficult to guess the effect.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 12 December 2012 7:57:37 AM
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Hasbeen
Re: Solar Hot water I would be interested to know if that is still the case. To some extent it depends what you are changing from.

Raycom
I would encourage you to look at the Deloitte study (2 parts) into Victorian smart meters, it includes reference into impacts of TOU on different household types.

Bazz
If you’re referring to TOU rates, flexible pricing in Victoria will come in around mid-2013, see Vic DPI’s website. Prices and times will depend on the retailers as it is fully deregulated.
Posted by Damian S, Wednesday, 12 December 2012 10:33:02 AM
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I don't know these days Damian, although I doubt it. I gather it doesn't matter much. From what I've heard they have, or going to, ban the old fashioned hot water service, so we'll be stuck with solar.

A very good job of spin & lobbying has been done there.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 12 December 2012 11:46:38 AM
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