What other country in the world would show the restraint shown by Israel, given that Hamas has targeting the Israeli Home Front since 2001 and firing rockets on a near-daily basis for years.?

These rockets didn’t just start a couple of weeks ago. This year alone some 7-800 have been fired into Israel. I was in Sderot, known as the bomb shelter capital of the world, earlier this year, ever mindful that a siren could sound at any given time and thereby giving me only 15 seconds to make it to a bomb shelter. Even Husain Bolt can’t run that fast.

Since 2001, close to 13,000 rockets and mortar have been fired into Southern Israel, an average of 3 a day. Given these statistics, of course both the Government and the Opposition supports Israel's right to defend herself

It’s a proven fact and confirmed by Hamas that people are used as human shields. Their own videos released during this latest conflict confirm that fact. Most unfortunately when people are used in this situation there will be casualties no matter how careful one is. No other fighting force in the world takes the care to avoid civilian casualties as Israel does. As Ret. Colonel Kemp so admirably puts it. “Israel has the most moral fighting force in the world”

The Hamas Charter says “The day of Judgement won't come until the very rocks and trees call out 'Oh Muslim, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him'"

Until the people of Gaza stand up against Hamas, very unfortunately there will never be peace.

The writer makes numerous errors in his article, but time permits me to only address three.

1. He rails against Israel’s use of what he calls “disproportionate force”.

He bandies this term about as if there is a clear principle of international law behind it, telling us when force is “disproportionate” and why it is illegal.
But there isn’t such a principle.

2. He chastises Israel and her supporters (Australia, the United States and Canada) for downplaying that more civilians died in Gaza than in Israel. Again, as if there is a standard to be met comparing how many die on one side or another. And again, there is no such standard.

3. Among all the dozens of war crimes in international law, none mentions the element of disproportionate force. None.

In respect of Operation Pillar of Defence, the author would make good use of his time examining the relevant military objectives of the Israel Defence Force rather than pass judgment on the basis of the back of a napkin numbers of civilians killed, which has minimal relevance to legal analysis. Minimal.

Like any country when attacked, Israel not only has the right to defend itself - in the eyes of her citizens, is obligated to do so. I sense you acknowledge this but you seem to have a problem with the Israel Defense Forces attacking specific targets such as sources of rocket launchers or Hamas military command directing the rockets as these are positioned in highly-populated areas and thus cause civilian casualities. Hamas has chosen to position rocket launchers in schools, mosques and in apartment buildings and are using the people of Gaza as human shields. This is a war crime as is sending rockets into Israel. It might be more productive if you directed criticism at Hamas for shielding behind women and children - they don't mind as any deaths play on international sympathies

The people wearing the blinkers are those who seem to believe, Israel ought not respond to the daily firing of lethal indiscriminate ordinance, at Israeli towns, cities and villages.
The people wearing the blinkers, simply refuse to understand that Mindless Militant Miscreants are doing Iran's dirty work for them!
Personally, I'd have simply unleashed the dogs of war a very long time ago, and not left a brick standing on a brick in Gaza, or any place for any surviving fundamental fanatic to HIDE behind.
This is the very sad face of fundamental hate, which if it paused long enough to think about unintended and or possible outcomes, would cease forthwith, doing their own enemy's dirty deeds for them, and sit down and get a two state solution finally and fully nutted out.
That is the only outcome which will produce a truly lasting peace, and a return of normality, for the Gaza strip/West bank, and the end of occupation and illegal settlements!
People need to decide, what they really want, real freedom; or, revenge, followed by reprisals, followed by revenge, followed by more reprisals!
Ditto, ditto endlessly repeated, until nobody actually remembers who and or what started it?
Palestinians also need to realise that Iran is a common or vastly more lethal threat, and or, an Iranian military victory, would mark the beginning of the end for all Sunni/moderate Muslims!
And or, all those states, where the Sunnis are in control or numerically superior.
Iran clearly believes she should led the entire Muslim Middle East, and control all its wealth?
If that means dividing and then subjugating various states, or a house divided, and then using elements of that endless division, and the mindless hate that then engenders, to make smooth the path, or do their dirty work for them, then that's what will happen!
Rhrosty.

Dave Hopkins, yours is an outstanding article because it takes the people who glorify killing and genocide and takes them to task.

It clearly spells out the disgusting behaviour of the IDF and labels the Americans as warmongers. It shows the immorality of the Australian, Canadian, U.K. and American Governments, etc, all of whom continue to support Israel's illegal occupations and give a tick to their many atrocities and war crimes.

The commenters above me should join the IDF so they too can get the buzz that comes from killing women and kids and civilians who not only can't defend themselves but live in poverty thanks to the illegal occupation.

Well done, Dave. I hope a few more humanists join in and give the Palestinians the support they deserve!

David G:

The “people who glorify killing” are a major proportion of the Islamist Arab population who cheer and dance in the streets following every major terrorist attack, not just against Israel but against any Western country. The ones who are immensely proud to send their sons and daughters to blow themselves up just to be able to murder some of the infidels. Those who say they cannot wait to resume the suicide bombing campaign.

Atrocities and war crimes are performed by Hamas with every rocket they fire on Israeli civilians. I’m not sure how many thousands of rockets have been fired since Hamas came to power, I’m not sure anyone really knows the exact number as there have been so many. But every single one of these rockets is a war crime.

Since you do not seem to be aware of the situation, let me inform you that there is no occupation in Gaza for many years now, ever since Israel withdrew from the territory, just before the rockets started.

Perhaps it is you who should join Hamas, your philosophy seems to be almost identical to theirs.

AVW, obviously you are employed by the IDF to disseminate lies.

Fortunately, most of the contributors to OLO know full well what the situation is like for the Palestinians blockaded in Gaza.

Most of them also would've watched the latest genocide carried out by the IDF, seen the dead, crushed Palestinian children being pulled from the rubble of their homes.

Anyone who tries to justify what the Israelis do to those who it illegally occupies or blockades is devoid of conscience or morality.

In your case it's both!

AVW, whilst the western countries continue to interfere in the soveriegn countries of the middle east, there will never be peace.

David G

To whom are you referring, other than Hamas, when you speak of “people who glorify killing and genocide”? Certainly not the countries you mention.

Israel is NOT an ‘occupier’ let alone an ‘illegal occupier’

Israel completely withdrew its military and civilian presence from the Gaza Strip in 2005 and since that time the rockets haven’t ceased.

Even Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahhar believes that Gaza is NOT under “occupation” or “siege”:

According to the Ma’an News Agency, he said in September 2012: “Gaza has been freed from occupation”. He confirmed also that Gaza is not under "siege", stating that "contiguity with the outside world is easier as visitors from all over the world visited the coastal enclave. We are self-dependent in several aspects except petroleum and electricity". http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=520228.

Certainly no one is getting a “buzz” as you put it out of killing. During this last offensive, Israel, as per Her norm dropped leaflets telling people to move away from various areas where they knew Hamas were. The response from Hamas was to tell people to ignore it. The same a with text message which went out to every single mobile phone.

I can assure you the people of Gaza are not living in poverty, nowhere near it. I can give you multiple pages of links as to the lifestyle of the average person in Gaza. I think now they have 4 or 5 Five Star hotels compared to Israel’s 1. They have resorts spas and night clubs. I also believe Israel doesn’t have an Olympic size swimming pool whilst Gaza does.

There are two books that are a "must read", both written after exhaustive research, both available as Amazon Kindle editions as well as paperbacks, by outstanding Israeli scholars, both of whom are reviled as "self-hating Jews", which is a badge of recognition and honour conferred by the Zionist cheer squad.

The titles sum up the message: "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Professor Ilan Pappe and "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Professor Shlomo Sand. I thought I knew all I needed to, but those two books blew me away.

Palestine was cleared for foreign occupation and a racist state by a programme of murderous pogroms, called "Plan Dalet" and led by a cabal around David Ben Gurion - the first being in 1947 and the most recent being this month. Pappe's research has laid out the events town by town, village by village, valley by valley, pogrom by pogrom.

While Pappe delved back through records to 1947, Sand took his research back to Genesis 12 and 15 and the Abrahamic Covenant ("God promised us your territory") and showed that those ruling Israel are descendants not of the "children of Israel" but of converts. There's a quick overview at http://www.versobooks.com/authors/709-shlomo-sand.

Fake Jews imposing by extreme violence the only state in the world to be run as a homeland for an ethnic group and the rest better stay out of the way!

At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

http://www.tnr.com/article/books/magazine/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian?page=0,1&passthru=MWE4MzAwYzEwZTUxY2M3Y2VjZWEwODI4NTYyOTZlYmU

EmperorJulian There is a good word to describe people like you whic was coined back in 1879 by William Marr and has no place here, so I suggest you take your hate elsewhere.

Like Ilan Pappe, Shlomo Sands theories have been totally debunked, through blood and genes testing.

Read the last item I posted and read this and bite your tongue

"Genetic research refutes Shlomo Sand - It's in our DNA"
http://www.israel-palestina.info/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1165

AVW, I intend, in the future, to apply the following maxim to all those who, like you, offer palpable nonsense and lies instead of serious debate:

"Argue not with Fools, Fanatics and Frauds! Seek better companions."

This has to be a joke. A group (Hamas) fires rockets into a civilian population (Israel)and the people being shot at fight back.

The people that start this (Hamas)then complain that they are getting killed because the others (Israelis)are shooting back.

You can dress it up as a resistance or freedom fighters except the "freedom fighters" (Terrorists) are calling for the death of everyone else,(Jews & Christians read Hamas articleshttp://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm ) not freedom for themselves and people.

They try to make this a religious war as though they are not being allows to worship as they like but the people they are trying to kill (the average Israeli) do not care what religion they are.

It is true that the innocent (Palestinians being used are human shields) are suffering but it is also true that the leadership of the Palestinians (Hamas)do not care except to use them as PR tools. That is why they use apartment buildings, hospitals and schools as rocket launching sites and weapons storage.

Shame on anyone that would support Hamas and their heartless and cruel tactics. It is the Palestinian leadership that is controlled by Iran that calls the shots ( and supplies the rockets). Feel bad for the Palestinians but do not blame Israel.

In SF's first link, Professor Benny Morris presents a meandering tale based on the small change of Pappe's translations, his selection of terms, his disputes with other academics, his character, his politics, just about everything except anything that in any way invalidates what he has written about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947 and thereafter which is what the current disputes are about.

SF’s second link refers to DNA evidence that links "Israelites" in biblical and pre-Roman times through to now. The DNA studies are a work in progress and do not seem to do more than tenuously link Semitic peoples (which would include Jews and Palestinians) with one another over the millennia. No apparent demonstration of a Jewish people/nation/race/whatever. The article quotes scientist Professor Karl Skorecki: “Whoever uses genetic studies of the Jewish people, based on one agenda or another, in order to describe a people-race, is distorting reality.” How right he is! We've seen where that leads.

Lefties have been fascists since at least Stalin, and they also all seem to be trainee oven attendants. The War crime is to site offensive weapons among civilians. ALL injuries that flow from this accrue to those who sited said illegal weapons. Proportionality refers only when say surrounding suburbs are shelled as well as the illegal weapon sites. It does not refer to collateral damage immediately about the illegal offensive weapon sites.

SF, regarding your claim that the Israeli military tries as hard as possible to minimise civilian casualties:

It just so happens that a couple of days ago on another Internet forum that somebody wrote that he wanted people to provide evidence that the Israeli military targets civilians. So I found these reports. It did not take long.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/09/wo...nce/index.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...a-israel-obama

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/05/20/i...order-protests

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/12/i...vilians-attack

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/05/g...els-war-record

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israe...ors-2012-11-19

http://www.cpj.org/2012/11/in-gaza-n...ts-injured.php

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ma...y-1305571.html

I also recommended he read Norma G. Finkelstein's books "This Time We Went Too Far" and "Goldston Recants". I remembered later that I also could have recommended he red Norman G. Finkelstein's book "Beyond Chutzpah - On The Misuse Of Anti-Semitism & The Abuse Of History" and Gideon Levy's book "The Punishment Of Gaza".

I also pointed out that the Israeli military has a record of using white phosphorous bombs and cluster bombs, both of which are clearly indiscrimate weapons.

I would like to see your links claiming Gazans are nowhere near poverty.

Here are some links about Israel's blockade of Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle+east-10520844

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/report/palestine-report-260609.htm

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Ocha_opt_Gaza_impact_of_two_years_of_blockade_August_2009_english.pdf

Benny Morris supports the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

http://www.deiryassin.org/bennymorris.html

Jonathan J. Ariel, you write that there is no such international principle or international law about disproprotionate force. Well, I just found this.

http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/proportionality-principle-of/

fungus

Seeing as you are quoting from highly questionable and anti-Israel sites, your argument holds no water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHCeSFC3caM&feature=g-all-u
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/91931/media-should-use-ceasefire-reflect-double-standards
"Media should use ceasefire to reflect on double standards"

By Colonel Richard Kemp, November 22, 2012 former commander of British forces in Afghanistan
The mobilisation of Israeli forces around Gaza this week was strikingly reminiscent of the British and American build-up of troops along the Kuwait and Iraq borders before Operation Desert Storm, the massive armoured counter-attack that hurled Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait in 1991.

While I know many British Jews serve with the Israeli military, I was nevertheless taken aback to hear the dulcet, north-London tones of a couple of English lads in IDF khaki at a service station south of Ashkelon. After 30 years in the infantry, I am a good judge of soldiers. Like every one of their Israeli brothers-in-arms that I met, these men were absolutely not the bloodthirsty killers so often portrayed in the international media.

Yet much of the media, and many politicians, diplomats and human-rights activists believe there is an equivalence between the military actions of a Western democratic nation seeking to lawfully defend its people and a jihadist terrorist group indiscriminately attacking civilians and using its population as human shields. I recall no such equivalence being drawn between Allied forces attacking under international law, and the rape, plunder and callous violence of Saddam's forces on the rampage in Kuwait.

Predictably enough, the media has been full of shrill accusations of indiscriminate Israeli air strikes and deliberate targeting of civilians. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Every strike in a civilian area is authorised in real time, personally, by the commander of the Israeli Air Force or one of his deputies. As in Cast Lead, extraordinary steps have been taken to minimise civilian casualties - leaflet drops, text and radio messages, phone calls. Israel has even developed live munitions that explode harmlessly above terrorist-occupied buildings before a strike, warning innocent civilians to leave.
Intelligence is vital for accurate targeting and minimising civilian casualties.
The Israelis have refined technical intelligence collection as…Continue

Continued: well as use of agents on the ground to a high degree of sophistication Not without a heavy cost - suspected Israeli informants were publicly executed by Hamas this week.
Despite such immense efforts, innocent civilians, including women, children and old people have been killed in Israeli air strikes. Every one of these is a tragedy. But Hamas and its terrorist bedfellows Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committee must shoulder responsibility. They deliberately place their weapons, launch sites, communication centres and leaders right in the heart of civilian areas.

Thus Israel's choice is stark: put up with terrorist missiles aimed at its civilian population, or attack and risk civilian casualties in Gaza.

What do other countries do? Turkey, faced with terrorist attacks by Kurdish separatists has repeatedly and viciously bombed what it believes to be Kurd strongholds in the sovereign territory of Iraq. Yet Turkey has been vehemently critical of Israel for taking similar - though far more discriminating - action. Many have criticised Israel for the surgical strike that killed Hamas terrorist commander Ahmed Jabari. Few levelled similar criticism against the Americans for eliminating Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan.

Diplomats are horrified that Israel might launch a ground attack against Hamas. Our Foreign Secretary has warned that international support for Israel's operations would fracture. Yet dozens of Western nations have taken part in 11 years of high intensity ground and air warfare among the civilian population in Iraq and Afghanistan since the 9/11 terror attacks. The scale is different, the principle the same.

So were the troops poised to go in? Everything I have seen shows that Jerusalem meant business. Yet, speaking to senior military and government officials, I sensed great reluctance. Rightly, too. Massed infantry, tanks and artillery are a very blunt instrument and would have led to significant civilian casualties. And ground troops are not as invulnerable as their comrades in the air.

But if the ceasefire does not result in Hamas ceasing its attacks on Israel's civilian population and its military, and an end to weapons smuggling, the IDF may have no choice.

SF says "Thus Israel's choice is stark: put up with terrorist missiles aimed at its civilian population, or attack and risk civilian casualties in Gaza."
Or may be there are other solutions.
Perhaps the Israelis could end the occupation, stop the strangulation of Gaza, remove the settlements from the West Bank and come to a just two state solution with the Palestinians.
Israel will never have peace or security whilst they occupy other peoples lands, bomb their homes, kill their children and prevent them from earning a living.

People like yourself are always defending Israeli violence whilst ignoring the occupation. That is the source of Palestinian anger and rightfully so.
If Israel was under a military occupation then I am absolutely certain the Israelis would respond with violence. In fact they did just that under the British Mandate.

Rhys, don't waste your time trying to apply logic and reason to what the Israelis do. Logic and reason are beyond them: religious derangement is their affliction and always has been.

The Israelis, like the Americans, know exactly what they are doing. They are stealing Palestine and getting rid of the Palestinians. When they conclude that ambition, they will begin to take parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt to create Greater Israel, a racist super-state.

The Americans do the same thing except on a world scale. It amazes me that few people are aware of what is going on and how dangerous it is for those who value freedom and human rights. The evidence is there after all.

People, you just have to open your eyes and use what brainpower you have!

SF, so you're just going to dismiss all the links I posted on the false grounds that they are from biased, anti-Israel websites.
And you're going to base your entire argument on the a couple of interviews with a British colonel.
Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. I believe I have provided much more evidence to back up my arguments than you have. If this were a trial or debate, and it stopped here, I believe the judges would grant me the victory.

Hello Fungus,

In reply to your post where you champion the ‘principle’ of proportionality, please note that while the body of international law known as “the law of war” mentions the concept of proportionality in several contexts, the concept does not appear in any international legal text, convention or treaty.

David G:

You claim I am disseminating lies, can you point to ANY of the points I raised which is untrue? It’s very easy to claim that someone is lying, but you don’t seem to have much to go on.

I’m awaiting anxiously for you to disprove any of my claims. In the meantime, let me disprove one of yours:

“The Israelis... are stealing Palestine and getting rid of the Palestinians. When they conclude that ambition, they will begin to take parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt to create Greater Israel, a racist super-state.”

The Israelis have withdrawn from a huge piece of land called the Sinai Peninsula. I guess they don’t want to take part of Egypt after all.
The Israelis have withdrawn from Gaza, so I guess they are not want to keep Palestinian land.
The Israelis have withdrawn from Southern Lebanon, so I guess they do not want any part of Lebanon either.
The number of Palestinian Arabs has skyrocketed over the last few decades, so they seem to be doing a very poor job of "getting rid of the Palestinians".

You cannot steal a country that doesn’t exist. There has never been a country called Palestine. Check any history book.

In a report by the British Government to the Council of the League of Nations on the administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan in 1938, it was made clear: "Palestine is not a State, it is the name of a geographical area."

Filistine was a name coined by the Romans around 135 CE from the name of a seagoing Aegean people who settled on the coast of Canaan–the Filistines. The name was chosen to replace Judea, as a sign that Jewish sovereignty had been eradicated following the Jewish Revolts against Rome.

Arabs as the name suggests are not indigenous to the region. Indeed there is not an F sound in Arabic. That's why a change in the name to a P from an F

A tool used for propaganda reasons, invented by the Russians was the name change. On June 4th 1967, overnight Palestinian Arabs became Palestinians.

Israel proclaimed Statehood in 1948, the Arabs didn’t and 5 Arab armies attacked the fledgling State and were resoundingly beaten .To this day despite good deals, they do not have any land or a country officially.

Article 80 of the UN Charter implicitly recognises the “Mandate for Palestine” of the League of Nations.
The Mandate granted Jews the irrevocable right to settle anywhere in Palestine, the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, a right unaltered in international law and valid to this day. Settlements in Judea and Samaria, Gaza and the whole of Jerusalem are legal.

One more comment as I can't post any more today.

A few notable quotes

March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.

He said: “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people.”

Time and time again the Palestinian Arabs have refuse deals the last in 2008
http://www.smh.com.au/world/it-was-our-mistake-says-palestinian-chief-20111029-1mpc9.html

To Avw:

Israel has not withdrawn from Gaza. It withdrew the settlements, but then sealed Gaza off and subjected it to a crippling blockade.
Israel has not withdrawn from all of southern Lebanon either. It still occupies the Sheaa Farms.

To SF:

Regarding your argument that there was never such a country as Palestine: There was definitely a Palestinian identity. Palestinians agreed to support the British in World War One with the promise that Britain would help them get independence from the Ottoman Empire. And under British-Mandated Palestine "Palestinian" was a full-fledged nationality. There was a Palestinian flag, currency, and passports.

I also feel it is irrelevant whether or not there was ever such a country as "Palestine". People were already living in Palestine in well-established communities. They had towns, cities, farms, schools, and businesses.

Regarding your claim that the Israeli settlements are legal under internatinal law: that is demonstrably false. The United Nations had on numerous times that those settlements are illegal.

You are also wrong that there is no "F" sound in Arabic. There is an "F" sound in Arabic. I studied Arabic for three years at uni. The Arabic word for "Palestine" is "Falasteen". The Arabic word for "Palestinian" is "Falasteenee". There is actually no "P" sound in Arabic, and there is a special Arabic letter to represent the "P" sound when a foreign word is used that has that sound.

The Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites, who, according to the Bible, were there before the Israelites were.

http://www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdf

fungus:

“Israel has not withdrawn from Gaza”

Yes it has. The blockade you are referring to does not change the fact that there is no Israeli presence in Gaza.

As for the ‘crippling blockade’, many tons of goods are flowing into Gaza from Israel on a daily basis. Palestinian patients are often transferred from Gaza to be treated in Israeli hospitals, including Hamas PM’s brother-in-law who was recently treated for a serious cardiac episode. Israel also supplies electricity to Gaza.

Here is more about the ‘crippling blockade’:

“In Actual Terms, Gaza Is Not Under Siege... The resorts and markets have come to symbolize prosperity, and prove that the siege is formal or political, not economic…everything already was coming into the Gaza Strip from Egypt…Several months ago, Gaza had only one luxury resort, Zahrat Al-Madain. Today, another one opens up every day, such as Crazy Water, Aqua Park, and Al-Bustan.”

Middle East Research Institute, http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4482.htm

Let’s not forget that Gaza is also sharing a border with Egypt, a border not under Israeli control in any way.

Not very ‘crippling’ after all.

“Israel has not withdrawn from all of southern Lebanon either. It still occupies the Sheaa Farms”

This is not the position of the UN. Security Council resolution 425 confirms that Israel has indeed completed the withdrawal from Lebanon.

The Shebaa Farms area appears as Syrian territory in maps from the 1930s and 1940s. From Syrian independence in 1946 the land was administered by Syria, not Lebanon. It was shown as Syrian territory in all international maps, as well as Lebanese and Syrian military maps. The 1949 armistice agreements between Syria and Israel also show the area to be Syrian territory. The area was captured by Israel in 1967 from Syria, not from Lebanon (which did not participate in the war).

In short, there is no basis for the claim that Israel has not withdrawn from all of Lebanon.

Avw, you criticised me earlier for citing Gush Shalom.
Then you cite MEMRI.
Double standards much?

Here are some links about the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle+east-10520844

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/report/palestine-report-260609.htm

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Ocha_opt_Gaza_impact_of_two_years_of_blockade_August_2009_english.pdf

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw

Personally, I do consider controlling Gaza's borders to be a form of occupation.

Regarding the Shebaa Farms, Syria says they are Lebanese. If Syria says they are Lebanese and not Syrian, then I guess they are Lebanese.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070209180352/http://www.worldpoliticswatch.com/article.aspx?id=119

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/763504.stm

To Jonathan J. Ariel,

In your first post you wrote, 'The writer makes numerous errors in his article, but time permits me to only address three.

'1. He rails against Israel’s use of what he calls “disproportionate force”.

'He bandies this term about as if there is a clear principle of international law behind it, telling us when force is “disproportionate” and why it is illegal.
But there isn’t such a principle.'

You also wrote, 'Among all the dozens of war crimes in international law, none mentions the element of disproportionate force. None.'

In your second post you wrote, 'while the body of international law known as “the law of war” mentions the concept of proportionality in several contexts, the concept does not appear in any international legal text, convention or treaty.'

The link I provided contains the following:

'The principle of proportionality is embedded in almost every national legal system and underlies the international legal order.'

'As formulated in Additional Protocol I of 1977, attacks are prohibited if they cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the anticipated concrete and direct military advantage of the attack.'

'Article 85 defines an indiscriminate attack undertaken in the knowledge that it will cause excessive damage to the civilian population is a grave breach and therefore a war crime. The principle is hard to apply in war, still harder after an attack has occurred. But grossly disproportionate results will be seen as criminal by all belligerent parties and the world community.'

'The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court reaffirms this by qualifying in Article 8 as a war crime intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities. The use of indiscriminate weapons such as cluster bombs in populated areas is a war crime as well.'

Here are two more links.

http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/392/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)

fungus:

The MEMRI article reference I provided is nothing like the Gush Shalom example. If you read through that article you will notice that they are quoting the Arab press. Are you trying to tell me that the Arab press are biased towards Israel as well?

As for Shebaa Farms, the United Nations support the claim that it is indeed Syrian territory. As I stated above, it has always been Syrian territory in the past. The unfinished work of a Syrian-Lebanese committee to try and clearly define the border does not change the fact that when Israel captured this territory in 1967, it was indeed Syrian territory.

Why then, is Syria now being vaguely supportive of the Lebanese claim to the area? As you are probably aware, Syria is the major sponsor of Hezbollah in Lebanon, another terrorist organisation calling for the destruction of Israel. The Shebaa Farms, with Syrian support, is nothing but a pretext used by Hezbollah to continue their attacks against Israel.

Hey Fungus,

I am familiar with the articles you list when you mention ‘proportionality’.

Please note the following:

• According to law (international), Israel is not required to calibrate its use of force precisely according to the size and range of the weaponry used against it.

• The Associated Press on 28/12/08 reported (in the context of yet another Gaza conflict) that most of the 230 Palestinians who were reportedly killed were “security forces,” and Palestinian officials said “at least 15 civilians were among the dead.” The numbers reported indicate that there was no clear intent by Israel to inflict disproportionate collateral civilian casualties. What is critical from the standpoint of international law is that if the attempt has been made “to minimize civilian damage, then even a strike that causes large amounts of damage – but is directed at a target with very large military value – would be lawful.”.

• You mentioned the Rome Statute. Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, explained that international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court “permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur.” The attack becomes a war crime when it is directed against civilians. This is exactly what Hamas did and does.

• After September 11, when the Coalition of the Willing united to collectively expunge the Talibans, no one compared Afghan casualties to the actual numbers that died in at the WTC. There clearly is no international expectation that military losses in war should be on a one-to-one basis. To expect Israel to hold back in its use of decisive force against legitimate military targets in Gaza is to condemn it to a long war of attrition with Hamas.

For that matter, should we expect the ADF to shy away from replying to an IED that kills say 4 Australians in Afghanistan if the reply will most likely take out a military asset, kill 6 Taliban fighters and regrettably 20 Afghan civilians?

Avw, regarding the Shebaa Farms, well if the solution to the situation is for Israel to abide by international law and withdraw from them anyway, then I believe the ball is in Israel's court on that one.

Regarding the blockade of Gaza, the links I have provided about it describe in much detail a crippling blockade by Israel. The link you provided is of an article in which things seem to have improved in Gaza from the last time that journalist was there. The journalist attributes the easing of the situation to the smuggling tunnels and also to Israel's easing of the blockade. Also - and this could just be a coincidence - in the link you provided the journalist describes retailers having over-supplies of goods to sell. In the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs report I linked to, the report states that Israel's blockade of Gaza has hindered exporting abilities, leading to a glut of local products on the local market

Jonathan J. Ariel, you write, "You mentioned the Rome Statute. Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, explained that international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court 'permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur.' The attack becomes a war crime when it is directed against civilians. This is exactly what Hamas did and does."

The Wikipedia entry I linked to cites Luis Moreno-Ocampo stating, "Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated."

One of the links I provided says this, "Attacks that are expected to cause collateral damage are not prohibited per se, but the laws of armed conflict restrict indiscriminate attacks. Article 57 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions states that, in an international conflict, “constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians, and civilian objects.” In addition, under Article 51, carpet bombing is prohibited, as are attacks that employ methods and means of combat whose effects cannot be controlled. Finally, attacks are prohibited if the collateral damage expected from any attack is not proportional to the military advantage anticipated. Military commanders in deciding about attacks have to be aware of these rules and either refrain from launching an attack, suspend an attack if the principle of proportionality is likely to be violated, or replan an attack so that it complies with the laws of armed conflict."

[continued below.]

[continued from above.]

Israel is known to use cluster bombs and white phosphorous bombs, both of which are clearly indiscriminate weapons. In one of the links I provided the writer states that use of cluster bombs is a war crime. Also, check out the links I provided earlier about the Israeli military targeting civilians.

One of the links I provided says that, "Attacks that are expected to cause collateral damage are not prohibited per se, but the laws of armed conflict restrict indiscriminate attacks. Article 57 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions states that, in an international conflict, “constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians, and civilian objects.” In addition, under Article 51, carpet bombing is prohibited, as are attacks that employ methods and means of combat whose effects cannot be controlled. Finally, attacks are prohibited if the collateral damage expected from any attack is not proportional to the military advantage anticipated. Military commanders in deciding about attacks have to be aware of these rules and either refrain from launching an attack, suspend an attack if the principle of proportionality is likely to be violated, or replan an attack so that it complies with the laws of armed conflict."

[continued below.]

You also write that nobody has taken the USA military to task for all the civilians it has killed in Afghanistan. Actually, John Pilger has. So has the Revolutionary Association for the Women of Afghanistan. I believe that using that as an argument is an example of what many Zionists seem to do when Israel comes in for criticism: "Oh yeah? Well, what about [insert human rights catastrophe here]?" The USA should come into criticism for the civilian deaths in Afghanistan. The fact that other countries have lousy human rights records does not mean that Israel should not be condemned for having a lousy human rights record.

fungus:

“…regarding the Shebaa Farms, well if the solution to the situation is for Israel to abide by international law and withdraw from them anyway, then I believe the ball is in Israel's court…”

How is the ball in Israel’s court? This contradicts our discussion above; there's nothing in International Law stating that Israel has to withdraw from Shebaa Farms. According to the UN it’s Syrian territory, not Lebanese. It therefore falls under R242 – land for peace. As long as there is no peace – no land needs to be returned. The ball is actually in Syria’s court.

As for the Gaza blockade and the article I referenced. Here is an extract of what the Egyptian journalist wrote:

“A sense of absolute prosperity prevails, as manifested by the grand resorts along and near Gaza's coast. Further, the sight of the merchandise and luxuries filling the Gaza shops amazed me…The resorts and markets have come to symbolize prosperity, and prove that the siege is formal or political, not economic… everything already was coming into the Gaza Strip from Egypt. If this weren't the case, businessmen would not have been able to build so many resorts in under four months.”

This is far from a description of a territory under a “crippling blockade”. It is not simply a moderate improvement, as you imply.

But don’t just take the word of an Egyptian journalist. How about the word of Muhammad Dahlan, founder and head of the Palestinian Authority’s Preventive Security Force in Gaza between 1994 and 2000:

“…the Gaza Strip [is] not under siege and its residents [are] not lacking anything. Hamas [not Egypt or Israel] is laying siege to the Gaza Strip”

Dahlan also said that a pro-Hamas Sudanese minister who visited Gaza recently told him that he wished that Sudan had as much basic goods as the Strip.

Or, how about the word of Mahmoud Zahhar, a senior Hamas official:

“Gaza is free of occupation, and contiguity with the outside world is easier as visitors from all over the world visited the coastal enclave.”

The crippling blockade is a myth.

Avw, Resolution 242 states that Israel should withdraw from all territories it conquered in the Six Day War. Israel conquered the Shebaa Farms in the Six Day War. I believe this means that international law says Israel should withdraw from them.

I totally disagree with your statement that "the crippling blockade is a myth". The comprehensive, objective reports I linked to definitely describe a crippling blockade. The quotes from Arab individuals you have, should their statements be true, means they believe the blockade has eased, and/or that the smuggling through tunnels system is working.

There are no shortages of anything in Gaza
http://www.israelmuse.com/2010/11/pic-pictures-of-real-gaza-album-3.html

About 20% of the population in Gaza owns a personal computer – this is more than Portugal, Brazil, Saudi Arabia or Russia. They have access to ADSL and dial-up Internet service, provided by one of four providers.

About 70% of Gazans own a TV and radio and have access to satellite TV or broadcast TV from the PA or Israel.

Gaza has well-developed telephone landlines, and extensive mobile telephone services provided by PalTel (Jawwal) and the Israeli provider Cellcom.

According to USAID report, 81% of households in Gaza have access to a cell phone. The PA-owned cell phone provider Jawwal has more than 1 million cellular subscribers.

They have three-story retail complexes
http://www.demotix.com/news/761236/palestinians-inside-shopping-malls-new-andalusia-gaza-city

They have nightclubs http://www.rootsclub.ps/index.php

They have large luxury hotels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FePZ0y6aOos
http://www.israellycool.com/2010/07/20/a-taste-of-concentration-camp-gaza-the-grand-palace-hotel/
http://www.aldeira.ps

In its 9th year, EXPOTECH Technology Week was a few weeks ago
http://www.israelmuse.com/2010/06/pictures-of-real-gaza.html

Ooooh, that sounds just dandy, SF.

Can't wait to book a trip - how about you?

http://wikitravel.org/en/Gaza

I haven't been there but I know of two people who have.

I have looked into Gaza, from Sderot "The bomb shelter capital of the world" Beautiful buildings, skyscrapers looks great

fungus:

R242 definitely does NOT state that Israel should withdraw from ALL the territories it gained in 1967. Please show me any credible reference that states otherwise. Furthermore, withdrawal is only half of the story. The resolution also calls for the termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect of sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of each state and their right to live in peace within secure borders, free from threats or acts of force. BOTH principles called for by the resolution need to be applied.

You will note that when peace and recognition was offered by Egypt, the entire Sinai peninsula (the bulk of the area captured by Israel in 1967), was returned. You will also note that similar peace negotiations with Syria have failed in the past. R242 needs to be implemented in full; you cannot ask one side (Israel) to comply with the first half of the resolution while the other side (Syria) is unwilling to comply with the second half. Until a peace agreement is reached between Israel and Syria, Israel is under no obligation to withdraw from any Syrian territory captured in 1967, and that includes Shebaa Farms.

Regarding the quotes I provided about the blockade, these are not just ‘Arab individuals’. They are senior figures within the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, you cannot dismiss their statements as simply the opinions of some Arab individuals. And a statement such as

“the Gaza Strip [is] not under siege”

does not mean ‘the blockade has eased’, it explicitly states that there is no siege, no blockade.

Avw, you're right. My mistake. Resolution 242 does not use the word "all". But it does say that Israel should withdraw from territories it conquered in the Six Day War. It doesn't say "some territories" either. I assume the resolution means "all territories". I don't think Israel has the legal right to choose what territories it should withdraw from. You can read the text of the resolution in full here: http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7d35e1f729df491c85256ee700686136?OpenDocument

I'm not psychic, but I don't see Syria attacking Israel any time soon. I don't know what claim Israel has to the Shebaa Farms or the Golan Heights.

Regarding Israel's "right to exist", I believe this concept needs to be examined further. The process of the creation of the state of Israel was a monumental injustice for the Palestinian people. The Palestinians were raped, massacred, and forcibly expelled. None of the people responsible has ever been brought to justice. On the contrary, some went on to become high-ranking Israeli politicians. At least two of them became Israeli Prime Ministers. The state of Israel confiscated all the Palestinian refugees' property sans any compensation. The Palestinian refugees have since been living in poverty-stricken limbo in refugee camps ever since. Israel has, in defiance of United Nations resolutions, denied the Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homelands. Meanwhile, under Israeli law, every Jew in the world is instantly a citizen of Israel and is encouraged to migrate there. And the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel are systematically discriminated against. If, for the sake of argument, the acceptance of Israel's "right to exist" means accepting such a state of affairs, then I do not for the life of me see how anybody in good conscience could accept Israel's "right to exist".

For the record, I support the one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It would be a win-win for Israelis and Palestinians.

Regarding the blockade of Gaza, you seem to be saying that there was never such a thing as a crippling blockade of Gaza. Not that it has been eased, but that there was never such a restricting blockade in the first place. To claim this you would have to claim that all of the links I provided - links to United Nations, BBC, and Red Cross reports - are inherently wrong, and that Israel never blocked such items as pasta, tea, coffee, or crayons from enterring Gaza, that Gazan exports were never blocked by Israel, and that Israel never restricted Gazan Palestinians' fishing.

fungus:

Regarding R242. A lot of work has gone into formulating the resolution to make is acceptable to all parties, including the Arabs, the Israelis, the US and the Soviet Union. One of the initial drafts stated Israel should “withdraw… from THE territories occupied in the recent conflict”, implying ALL The territories. However this was changed to “withdraw… from territories”, without specifying the extent of the withdrawal, to allow the resolution to be passed. Also mentioned in the same resolution is the need for termination of state of belligerency etc. Once an agreement is reached with Syria most (if not all) of the captured land will be returned, as it was when peace agreement was reached with Egypt.

I am always amazed that some people still support the so-called one-state solution, even though it is the worst possible solution imaginable. Have you not seen the results of the Yugoslavia experiment? How about Lebanon? Forcing the Jews and Arabs to live together will create a ticking time bomb, and it will only be a matter of time before the conflict escalates sufficiently to make the current skirmishes look like peaceful co-existence.

Regarding the blockade, I did not say it never existed in the first place. All I’m saying is that nowadays, the blockade, for all intents and purposes, is no more.

I believe the one-state solution is the best solution.
The two-state solution will solve many of the problems faced by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, and will go a long way in ending Palestinian violence against Israelis. But it will leave the Palestinian refugees in the same miserable position they are in now. The same with the non-Jewish Israelis who will continue to be second-class citizens in their own country.
One state in which all of its citizens are equal regardless of ethnicity or religion is the ideal solution.

fungus:

As I said, one-state solution has been tried elsewhere and failed miserably. There is absolutely no reason to believe it will succeed here. In Yugoslavia, as well as Lebanon, the one-state for two (or more) peoples resulted in terrible conflicts and unimaginable bloodbath. Similarly in Palestine, due to generations of animosity, a one-state solution is very likely to result in escalated violence and complete mayhem. What we need here is to separate the two parties, rather than bring them together. Only separation has any chance of halting the escalating conflict.

When looking at a solution to a conflict, the overwhelming evidence against a one-state solution should put this option at the bottom of the list, under the label ‘avoid at any cost’