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The Forum > Article Comments > Israel on the horns of a dilemma > Comments

Israel on the horns of a dilemma : Comments

By Julie Bishop, published 22/11/2012

Israel is more than aware that it is not only engaged in a military conflict but also in a battle for global opinion.

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Julie I find it uncomfortable to read such a biased pro-Israeli article, you really need to look to the facts on why this most recent rise of tensions has occurred.

The real reasons for the current fighting results from an 8th of November Israeli invasion of Gaza, following a two-week lull in tensions, the result, a 13 year old boy playing soccer was killed by an Israeli soldier.

Violence then escalated for the next few days resulted in the injury of eight Israelis, including at least four soldiers, the deaths of five Palestinian civilians, and the wounding of dozens more in Gaza.

On November 12, efforts to diffuse tensions, led by the Palestinian factions led to a truce that held for just two days, that was until Israel broke it by assassinating Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari.

The rockets out of Gaza that followed these various Israeli provocations have been misrepresented.

As to the "The stress of a constant threat to their lives places an enormous burden on the shoulders of community leaders who have responsibility for the safety of residents.” Talk about complete hypocrisy.

Fact: 26 Israeli’s have died from rocket attack since 2004; I won't even begin to calculate the number of deaths of Palestinians since 2004.

As Noam Chomsky has correctly pointed out: Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely populated refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques and slum areas to attack a population that has no air force, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanised armour, no command in control and no army and calls it a war. It is not war it is murder.

The Israeli Government, do not have a right to carry out indiscriminate bombing and killing of Palestinian civilians, nor under International law, does any government have a legal right to do so. Israel has an obligation to abide by international law and uphold the rights of occupied Palestinian people, and since they refuse to do so, Australia has a legal responsibility to take action and see Israel is not allowed to act with impunity.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Thursday, 22 November 2012 11:06:03 AM
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This article is a good reason why it would be dangerous for the Coalition to become the government if the Member for Curtin accurately reflects coalition policy. Only marginally more dangerous that the current government.

The article is not only blatantly one sided, as Geoff of Perth points out, it is also profoundly ignorant. It completely escapes me how one can write an article about the current conflict and completely ignore the past 64 years of history since Israel came into being.

There is a long documented history of Israel ignoring world opinion (as expressed in UN General Assembly resolutions; of ignoring the World Court; of carrying out ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to permit yet more illegal Israeli "settlements"; of the illegal blockade of Gaza; of targeted assassinations etc etc etc.

As Geoff also points out, the confrontation is hardly even. Gaza has no military and no equipment beyond a few rockets that have killed only a handful of Israelis. Ms Bishop is anxious to stress Palestinian rockets and especially their alleged Iranian source. Why no condemnation of the massive firepower provided to Israel by the Americans? Without American arms, money and political support (most recently yet another Security Council veto on Tuesday) the Israelis would be forced to negotiate seriously.

As it is, they continue with impunity, safe in the knowledge that they have the unquestioning support of people like Ms Bishop and her would-be government. She affords Israel the right of "self-defence". Why do the Palestinians, terrorised for the past 64 years, have no comparable right?
Posted by James O'Neill, Thursday, 22 November 2012 11:31:03 AM
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This is one of those rare occasions, where one can agree with almost everything you say Julie!
One of the interesting outcomes, is the peacemaking role of the Egyptian, Turkish and Lebanese Sunni, Muslim brotherhood, who are equally or even more threatened, by a increasingly warlike, sabre rattling, evil empire, Iran!?
This could be one of those monumental moments in history, where we can see both sides, with absolutely everything to gain and nothing to lose, by finally sitting down, nutting out and adopting the roadmap/two state solution and agreed borders!
I personally, would put the Leaders in a room, and not let them out again, until all the pertinent issues were resolved!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 22 November 2012 11:57:32 AM
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In response to the top two commentators in this article, one can argue back and forth about who "started" it...! And it goes back much further than 64 years!

As Australians, we are blessed with being part of the New World, where we don't have any age-old feuds to settle or sworn enemies on our border who constantly rattle their sabres (except for the Victorians of course!) Plus, I have no doubt that both sides have their political "spin-doctors" getting their side of the story released to the world's media. Are we really getting the full story? Will we ever get the full story?

For me, the key question to you on this issue is this: Are Hamas & other Palestinian militants being supported/supplied by Iran?

The answer to this question speaks for itself...
Posted by Darryl of Perth, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:08:07 PM
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As a footnote, one can add.
All the rocket firing and armed resistance in Gaza, are "civilians", hiding behind/amongst real unarmed non combatant civilians/women and children.
A teenager, armed with an semi-automatic, high calibre rifle, rocket launcher, and or a pistol; and mindless/endless brainwashed hate; is arguably, much more dangerous, than a professionally trained discriminating soldier, who'se actions are invariably moderated by sanctioned rules of engagement!
And indeed, the endlessly enquiring lenses of the need to know media, and or, an emerging social media!
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:16:38 PM
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@ Daryl of Perth. Isn't it an equally valid question to ask: are the militants of Likud and their ilk being armed and financed by the Americans?
Posted by James O'Neill, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:17:32 PM
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Of course your question is valid - "Is Israel being supported/supplied by the USA"? Who else is supported/supplied by the USA? Australia? We have US troops stationed in our country!

We can argue this all day, but it still goes back to the original question:

Are Hamas & other militants in the region being supported/supplied by Iran?

All other questions/comments simply lurch back & forth whereas this question shows where the militants intent truly lies!

Are these groups genuine political members of the international community...or...?
Posted by Darryl of Perth, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:26:41 PM
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Julie Bishop and those who support her thesis have no concept of what peace in the Middle East might look like.

It certainly will not resemble the present imbalance between:
- an armed Israel whose citizens are supported militarily while they steal land from their neighbours and
- a group of impoverished nations and semi-nations which are denied even the chance to control trade across their own borders, or to provide the necessities of civilisation such as safe water, power and hospitals, free from the threat that their powerful neighbour will, without warning or justification, demolish them as soon as tommorrow.

It would serve the Coalition better to have no foreign policy at all and no spokesperson if this is indicative of the best that they can produce.
Posted by JohnBennetts, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:28:55 PM
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I found myself becoming very angry reading the biased, silly piece by Julie Bishop. Then I remembered that this was the same lady who accused her own country Australia of forging passports in an effort to excuse the Israelis of tampering with Australian passports during one of their extra-judicial killings.

The thought of this woman being in a position of power in an Australian Government is frightening.

This ad hominem will have to suffice as I do not have the patience to refute with evidence almost everything she has said. Does she really believe this stuff?
Posted by Stan1, Thursday, 22 November 2012 12:35:42 PM
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Unfortunately, Stan1, she does believe it and so does the opposite side of politics.

Australian politicians are among the most ignorant in the world and are only eclipsed by the Yanks. Why Australia has become a sycophant of the U.S. even the Gods can't understand.

It's as though Coca Cola and MacDonalds contains mind-destroying toxins which turns those who consume it into the brain-dead.

Julie Bishop's article is pure, unadulterated Israeli propaganda and was probably written by Crazy Benny or Avital or the obnoxious Mark Regev.

The bottom line is that Israel has put a whole people under brutal occupation since 1948 and has stolen most of their land while most of the world has pretended nothing happened.

The Palestinians have the right to fight against their 'poor widdle' occupiers who are without compassion or conscience much like their enabler, the U.S.

I admire the bravery of the Palestinians who, in spite of being defenceless, fight on for their freedom!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 22 November 2012 1:53:06 PM
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Dear Julie

My first feelings were that as usual you have nothing new or insightful to say. Mostly simplistic guff, crafted to beguile. But the bias and lack of integrity in your portrayal of the situation got me thinking that perhaps you might be conspiring with the Israeli lobby to groom the populace into cheering squads for the Israelis.

Can you assure us that you are not just carrying out your role as a sleeper in our Parliament, having been seduced by the Israelis in one way or another just like that daughter of your esteemed colleague a few Christmases ago?

Chek
Posted by Chek, Thursday, 22 November 2012 2:16:38 PM
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Darryl of Perth says "the real question is whether or not Hamas is being supplied by Iran".
Why is this such an important question? You obviously don't think the source of Israeli weapons is important. Why is the source of Palestinian weapons so relevant?
I suspect that Iran is not supplying weapons because if they were, the Palestinians would have the means to defend themselves, rather than firing homemade rockets. If Iran or anyone else were to supply Hamas with credible anti aircraft weapons and credible anti tank weapons then there would not be any conflict. The only reason that Israel is so keen to wage war on the Palestinians is because they are essentially defenceless. If they were at risk of losing a few helicopter gunships or high tech aircraft, they would probably think twice.
Posted by Rhys Jones, Thursday, 22 November 2012 2:18:27 PM
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Dear Rhys Jones. You don't see ANY issue with Hamas or Palestinian militant groups being supplied by Iran? If you don't see that as an issue then why talk about this...? NOTE: Australia has US troops stationed in Northern Territory!

As for Hamas having better weapons & Israel would act different if they could lose gunships etc - obviously your historical knowledge is limited to yesterday! Israel fought and defeated all of their neighbours who wanted to attack them - Israel had far inferior weapons & numbers. Egypt, Syria, etc - all had their go. Israel have lost LOTS of tanks, gunships & men in these battles...yet there they still are.

We Australians are magnificent at giving the United States a bashing, but our history between 1942 & 1943 shows we owe them VERY MUCH for saving our asses! And from memory, isn't President Obama's administration aligned with the ALP & Democratic Socialism? Your left-wingers are in power both here and in the USA!

So obviously...there is more to this issue than the ABC & other media are letting on. I have no doubt that Israel have been arrogant & abusive on many occasions and with many of their decisions.

What is it that you really want? Do you want the Israelis to move out of the land? Well...that's what Iran wants too.
Posted by Darryl of Perth, Thursday, 22 November 2012 3:27:26 PM
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Dear Darryl, You still haven't explained why you think the issue is who supplies weapons to Hamas. And how is the shameful fact that we allow US military on Australian soil relevant to this issue.
Israel may have fought credible foes in the past but that is certainly not the case now. If Hamas were well armed, then I believe Israel would actually be willing to negotiate a settlement to the occupation, rather than just continuing it for decade after decade, all the while shifting more and more of their population into the occupied territories. That is why the Palestinians fight. They fight for their freedom, not on behalf of Iran as people like yourself would like to suggest.
Whether or not America saved our asses 65 years ago is completely irrelevant to the current conflict.
Likewise is the position of Iran. However on that note, Ahmadinejad has called again and again for the conflict to be settled through a democratic referendum of all concerned. Jews, Muslims and Christians alike. He has made it quite plain that whatever was decided in such a referendum, be it one state or two states, Iran would support the outcome. What they won't support is an illegitimate regime that occupies other peoples lands whilst strangling their economy, bombing their homes, killing and imprisoning their democratically elected leaders and killing their children. Doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.
Posted by Rhys Jones, Thursday, 22 November 2012 4:16:30 PM
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"But our history between 1942 & 1943 shows we owe them VERY MUCH for saving our asses!" says Darryl.

Darryl, this is 2012 in case you haven't noticed. What you are talking about happened 70 years ago.

The U.S. has changed during that period. It is now a brutal imperial nation, one intent on achieving global domination using military force.

It will do anything to fulfill its delusions of grandeur. It will even resort to the use of nukes if anyone with power gets in its road. Already it's into torture and rendition. It keeps prisoners in cages. It spies on its own citizens. It uses depleted uranium on its enemies and drones. It has assassination squads, the list goes on.

Darryl, get up to speed. Stop living in the past. The U.S. is the enemy of the Free World!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 22 November 2012 4:35:52 PM
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In every war, both sides are defending themselves against attacks by rockets or by something else. Unless you accept that both sides are in the right, you to go a step back and see what the war is actually about.
In this case it's about the occupation by Israel of (the rest of) Palestine.
Posted by jeremy, Thursday, 22 November 2012 4:45:34 PM
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Dear Rhys - I find it amazing that I must explain why it is unusual at best or deeply concerning most likely, that Hamas & their allies are supplied & supported by Iran! Surely you are arguing for argument's sake?

The US, China, Russia, UK & France are the largest suppliers of arms to the world (and they are all on the UN Security Council - go figure!) - why doesn't Hamas obtain supplies from them? There's secondary suppliers who are almost neighbours, both geographically & ideologically, like Egypt & Turkey - why don't Hamas get their supplies from them?

Why does this legitimate Palestinian Government resort to being supplied by one of the key "rogue" states in the world today- Iran?

They get weapons from Iran because NO ONE ELSE WILL SUPPLY THEM! Even their own Muslim brothers won't supply them! And don't say the US has threatened them...I am sure Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood would be worried by that threat!

You appear a glowing fan of Ahmadinejad - I hope you're not listening to what he says during interviews in the West? Listen to what he says to his own people! He wants Israel wiped off the map(Hitler?). He wants Israel to cease to exist. Of this he cannot escape.

This is a very difficult situation to deal with - faults on both sides - but 650 rockets can't be wrong. Hiding weapon pits amongst schools, hospitals & residences only increases culpability.

As I said before regarding Hamas being well-armed...Israel have fought steadily against better armed neighbours for decades. And even then, these nations opposed to Israel couldn't form an alliance with each other and fight against Israel as one force!! Do these nations really care about Palestine or do they simply dislike Israel?

I get the feeling that people in the West care more for Palestine than their Muslim brothers next door! Food for thought.

Nice chatting to you by the way. I do respect your views even though I might not agree with them.
Posted by Darryl of Perth, Thursday, 22 November 2012 4:56:51 PM
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Israel should return to the 1948 land area, and there should be no more Jewish emmigration into Israel, until it becomes a democracy and a not Jewish theocracy.
Posted by Kipp, Thursday, 22 November 2012 5:05:11 PM
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Darryl,
As you say, no-one will supply weapons to Hamas. I believe that includes Iran. You deny that this is because of the American threat and suggest that Egypt is not concerned about the Americans. Well I beg to differ. The US give something around $1.5 billion in aid to Egypt each year. If they supplied weapons to Hamas that aid would be immediately cut off. That is a significant threat to a nation whose tourist industry which comprised a significant portion of its GDP has collapsed. The reason other nations won't is due to American hegemony.
I quite like Ahmadinejad. I don't like his religous fanatasicm but at least he is willing to stand up to the likes of America and Israel and speak the truth while sycophants like Australia will continue to trumpet lies on behalf of the Israelis.
I do not believe war is the answer to this conflict. However, whilst Israel can slaughter the Palestinians with impunity, there is little incentive for them to negotiate a settlement.
You may believe that the Palestinians fight only due to some irrational hatred of Jews, and that the Palestinians enjoy living under a military occupation. Having followed this conflict closely for many years I do not buy it. People living under the yoke of another race will always fight for their freedom. When judging the violence, try to bear in mind who is the occupier here and who is the occupied. Think how you would respond we were living under those circumstances.
Posted by Rhys Jones, Thursday, 22 November 2012 5:13:38 PM
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This article is far from being balanced.Palistine has been oppressed decades.Israel is worse than Apathied South Africa.

The Zionists through AIPAC put a lot of money into the Romney campaign for no result.Obama then did a purge of the Govt and Military with reports of sacking 30.Apparently Obama wanted to rid himself of the Bush neo-cons since they wanted to attack Iran.

Bibi Netanyahu threw a hissy fit and attacked Gaza to annoy Obama and garner support for his coming election in January.

NATO did not expect Russia and China to stand up to them over Syria and Iran. Obama wants to expand the empire via their usual methods of proxies and subversion.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 22 November 2012 6:16:44 PM
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The “right of Israel to exist”, defended by the likes of Ms Bishop, centres on the demand for a Jewish homeland. But there are lots of Jewish homelands - Australia, France, Holland, Britain, America, the list runs to DOZENS of countries where Jews are citizens like everyone else - no more “special” and no less. This is not good enough for Zionists and they hold the world to ransom with endless wars and threats, each putting world peace at risk, to hang on to stolen territory in Palestine where Jews from all these countries with merely equal status can be MORE “special” by (their) law than everybody else. The locals resist (strength to their elbow!) and there’s yet another massive Zionist slaughter, another threat to world peace.

May I again as before put in a word for the Celts, people who count at least one Celt in their ancestry? There are some 1-2 billion of us. Why can’t WE grab someone’s land for a Celtic homeland and exile the inhabitants? Could call it Celtia, and wage daily war to stop the excluded and non-“special” inhabitants getting nasty with us. I wouldn’t be settling there though, I have a homeland I love where I'm a citizen like everyone else and am not pig-arrogant enough - like those who settle in Israel under its “Law of Return” - to want to grab someone else's.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Thursday, 22 November 2012 8:28:42 PM
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Once again I am amazed by the vitriol displayed against Israel in so many of these comments, and cannot help but compare this to the attitude in parts of Europe in the decade before the Holocaust. Julie Bishop has posted an article that should, surely, appeal to every fair-minded individual on The Forum. Instead it has, once again, stirred up further anger against Israel. I cannot fathom why such bias exists against such a small nation which has fought for its very existence ever since its founding in 1948.

It is Ahmadinejad who has been heard to deny the Holocaust and, along with Khomeini, repeatedly uttered threats against Israel. Has nobody considered why, over the past four thousand years, Israel has, though small in number, repeatedly conquered her enemies. Throughout history this tiny nation seems to have been the object of hatred out of all proportion to its size. Why do you think this is so? Most would argue that it is simplistic to trust in God to bring deliverance against one's enemies, and yet that is what has happened, repeatedly, throughout history. In WW2 alone there are many recorded instances of God's supernatural intervention when prayer has been made to Him for deliverance.

And still today, Israel recognizes that their right to exist is not based on their moral superiority, nor on any numerical advantage, but on a promise made to their ancestor Abraham in the distant past. With that promise came a responsibility: They were to be "a light to the nations". I cannot help but feel that this is what stirs up so much hatred against them.

Finally, little has been said about the fact that for the past decade Israel has suffered constant rocket bombardments by Hamas, and has shown remarkable restraint. I wonder how many of those who criticize this nation would be prepared to put up with this level of unrelenting attack on their own land ...
Posted by elizann, Tuesday, 27 November 2012 2:17:31 PM
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