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The Forum > Article Comments > Taser! Taser! Taser! > Comments

Taser! Taser! Taser! : Comments

By Kellie Tranter, published 16/11/2012

The fact of the matter is that there hasn't been anywhere near enough independent, objective research into taser safety.

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Before introduction of each new potentially fatal gadget, such as new models of Tasers, why not require the police to obtain from the Coroner approval of the product, the SOP's for its use (Standard Operating Procedures) and the training and qualifying regime?
Posted by JohnBennetts, Friday, 16 November 2012 9:16:18 AM
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Would you rather be shot with a taser or afirearm? Easy choice isn't it. The taser fits between a batton and a firearm in Police tools.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 16 November 2012 9:54:54 AM
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Kenny, if you are suggesting that police have only three tools at their disposal, then you are wide of the mark.

Further, if you consider (for example) only one of those tools, it will immediately become obvious that there is a wide range of options, from the current NSW Police Force's Glock to machine pistols, rifles, shotguns and full assault weaponry. Which would you prefer your own child to be shot by?

Or, just perhaps, would you prefer soft options to be used before lethal ones, and for force to be proportional to need?

Speaking of need, is lethal force only acceptable to avoid injury or death to officers or bystanders, or is this widened to include simply the desire to effect an arrest asap?
Posted by JohnBennetts, Friday, 16 November 2012 10:35:50 AM
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Well, given the alternative to a taser is a nine millimetre glock, it might be prudent to rephrase your objections.
Personally, I believe the problem might be cultural, and or the current personality types attracted to police work.
I'd prefer, if the apprenticeship period were longer, and the only weapons on issue for relatively recent recruits were just a baton, a two way and perhaps a pepper spray, a winning personality, a very good sense of humour, and a much more experienced personal mentor?
People tasered to death, seems to me, clear evidence of an automatic fear based response?
As is reaching for a sidearm, when confronted by an ancient cripple, armed only with fearsome visage and or a walking stick; or, being shot in the ass, while very rapidly abandoning lower ranks or raw recruits, with rare speed, to an armed and dangerous offender?
A longer probationary period, might sort the wheat from the chaff?
Four or five initial years, of pounding a beat on push-bikes, would likely add to the fitness regime and the quality of police persons in general.
It may well be a question of, if power corrupts, then absolute power corrupts absolutely.
And giving either a craven coward/convincing compulsive liar, or a psycho, a gun, is conferring ultimate power, but particularly, if that power is accompanied by a culture of closing ranks and or protecting problematic personalities, probably not really suited to police work and community liaison.
One catches more flies, or absolutely essential community cooperation, with a teaspoon of honey, rather than a whole barrel of vinegar, particularly one laced with steroids and or, served by a counter-productive, generic, alpha male personality?
Think, our special forces are filled to the gunwales, with preferred mild mannered Clack Kent types, not chest thumping, knuckle dragging Neanderthals! And before any protest, it was just a colourful analogy!
Even so, I think I know who I would prefer, issued with legally sanctioned lethal weapons, and their entirely independent use!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 16 November 2012 10:44:25 AM
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Come on Kellie, come off the grass.

We hire the cops to protect us from the criminals, & the ratbags, be they permanent or temporary ratbags. Before you start suggesting the cops should do this protecting bare handed, I believe you should go walk in their shoes a while. Get out of that comfortable chair, & go confront what these cops have to, all too often

Cops, & their families have a right to expect they go home after their shift, in the same physical condition as they came to work. They are entitled to protect themselves.

We gave them tasers to minimise the requirement for them to use their fire arms. As Kenny says, what would you rather be subdued with? If you don't want to be tasered, or shot, don't cause the disturbance. If you do play up, don't expect the cop to put your safety before his/her own.

So Kellie love, take off those rose coloured glasses, & wake up to the real world. If you want respect for your writings, do try to get real.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 16 November 2012 10:51:09 AM
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Very well put HASBEEN...

It's not easy performing GD work these days, from what I've seen. Since the days I first joined the job (the late sixties), much more prominence has been placed on academic accomplishment, rather than the traditional 'hard head style' of the old street copper in days of yore.

Is that a good thing, yes and no. There's a place for the tough, traditional 'street copper', similarly there's a place for the better educated police officer too. However, I'm wandering off topic.

The events described by the Coroner, appear prima facie, to be an over reaction by police thus, use of excessive force, proportional to the resistance offered by the deceased.

The accepted paradigm for the 'use of force' continuum consists of;

(a)police presence; (b)verbal direction; (c)weaponless compliance (d)use of chemical incapacitants (e) deployment of an impact weapon; (f) Use of a Taser; and finally (g) use of deadly force - firearm.

And believe me, NO copper ever wants to shoot someone - when you're right, you're wrong !

Of course that's the way it SHOULD happen in the ideal world. However, policing doesn't always happen 'ideally'. The public/media often demand police clean-up the streets. When they do, people/media will often scream 'excessive force' was used by police. If they don't, the same people/media assert the police are weak, or not doing their job ?

I realize it's a tired ol' phrase, but so true...'you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't'.

HASBEEN, you so, so right, when you say, let the critics of police walk a mile in their shoes - not just accompany the Commissioner around for a night-shift - wear the uniform, and do the bloody job.

A leading US Psychologist, ever a critic of police practices, was offered a six months attachment to a medium sized police force, which he took up...at the conclusion of his six months, he wrote a six page report - a COMPLETE 360 degree turn around. Truly Amazing !

It's easy to be a critic when you've never done the job.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 16 November 2012 2:28:30 PM
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And Hi to you Rhrosty.

As always, I find your threads amusing, you're turn of phrase usually brings a brief grin to my tired old countenance, though occasionally you do speak a little nonsences here'n there.

You assert police should receive more comprehensive training, even our recruiters should broaden their horizens when seeking the ideal recruit.

I spent a few years in our academy (as you do when they've determined you're a broken down ol' hasbeen) and I've met many a potential police officer while there.

Most are good kids, and some are more worldly types. There was this one lass, about 23/25 yoa. Had a degree, spoke well, looked pretty good and had a brilliant smile. Almost a 'sunny' smile you'd call it.

Anyway, during the time I had them, you tend to get to know them pretty well. Their strengths, weaknesses, even their moods. This lass spoke well and during our many Domestic Violence (arrest) scenarios, she developed this view, in fact opined, that more often than not, a quite word, willing smile, and being a 'female' police constable could often defuse a critical 'Domestic' incident, particularly when dealing with a male ?

Some of her class cohorts agreed, others didn't. My opinion, was sometimes ? After they graduate, you tend to lose sight of them unless you return to patrol, then perhaps you'll run into one or two of your former students around the traps.

This lass I never saw again, only heard about her. About seven months after she graduated, she attended a domestic with her senior partner, and had the livin' hell kicked out of her. Now out of the job with serious facial injuries, and suffers from severe psychologically impairement, as well as losing her career.

There's nothing regular or predictable about the role of policing my friend, everythings unpredictable, except the public, the media and your bosses !
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 16 November 2012 3:18:09 PM
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Kellie,
That South American lad who died after being tasered. Do you think the Police would have tasered him if he walked down the road minding his own business ?
He wasn't even picked by those officers. From what I have seen in the News he brought it all on himself. He behaved weirdly, was obstructive etc. He just got more than he thought possible before he set out on his weird outing. Don't blame the Police, blame the weirdoes.
Where I live we have a Police Station but it hasn't had the front door open literally for several years. I really wish we had those officers here to put a stop to the break-ins & subsequent letting the mongrels off by queer magistrates.
Posted by individual, Friday, 16 November 2012 7:51:22 PM
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Does no one here see a creeping fascism like pre-WW2 in Germany? Study your history.Exactly the same scenarios are happening now as enacted by the Nazi Adolph Hitler.

We don't need ROBO COPS running around with tasers injuring us.

The criminals of the GFC {ie The Banking Military Industrial Complex}who stole half of your superannuation have not been charged or face the criminality of their debauchery,yet we are arguing about police brutality that seeks to subdue those who are victims of the poverty and oppression brought on these very same criminal elites.

These very same criminals will steal the the rest of your life savings next yr via the creation of endless cyber money.ie QE3
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 16 November 2012 8:53:53 PM
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>>From what I have seen in the News he brought it all on himself. He behaved weirdly, was obstructive etc. He just got more than he thought possible before he set out on his weird outing. Don't blame the Police, blame the weirdoes.<<

It's okay to kill people if they're weird?

Well that should solve the mental health problems in this country: no more waiting lists just line the weirdoes up and shoot them. And it's not just crazies that we can knock off. Overly religious people are weird - JW's, Mormons, happy-clappy Christians, Muslims, Orthodox Jews etc.: they'll all have to go. Old people are usually pretty weird - not just the ones with dementia - so they should go as soon as they hit retirement age. People who like Tony Abbott are weird: the guy's a massive tool so all the Abbott supporters will have to go. Same goes for people who like Kyle Sandilands. And people who watch Funniest Home Videos. And vegetarians. Let's see, anybody else I've forgotten? Oh yes: people who genuinely think that is morally acceptable to kill people if they meet some arbitrary definition of weird. That's weird and scary. They'll definitely have to go.

On reflection it does seem like an awful lot of people to kill. Maybe it's better to just accept that there are lot of very weird people in this world and it's best to just live and let live except when they are dangerously weird. Even then the aim in a civilized society should be to prevent them harming others - readily achieved with a marvelous piece of law enforcement technology called 'handcuffs' - and not to tase them to death.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Friday, 16 November 2012 10:53:24 PM
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It's okay to kill people if they're weird?
Tony Lavis,
What an idiotic remark.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 17 November 2012 5:24:48 AM
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>>What an idiotic remark.<<

That's exactly what I thought when I read this:

>>From what I have seen in the News he brought it all on himself. He behaved weirdly, was obstructive etc. He just got more than he thought possible before he set out on his weird outing. Don't blame the Police, blame the weirdoes.<<

Surely - I thought - no reasonable person could possibly be defending the position that it's okay to tase people to death just because those people are weirdoes who set out on weird outings and behave weirdly during them. Glad to see you've taken my point and recognize the idiocy in your statement.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 17 November 2012 7:17:19 AM
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The case of the above student who robbed a store and then violently resisted arrest was at time of the 000 call described as armed. The coroner's report whilst critical of the officer's behaviour did not actually link the man's death to the use of the tasers. His body was so ravaged by habitual drug use that his violent reaction to the police was probably the last straw.

Could the police have handled the situation better, probably, but I have yet to hear any alternatives from the critics of the police. So here is a challenge, what would have been better'
a) let a suspected armed and violent man loose in the crowd,
b) shoot him,
C) club him senseless with batons.
d) Subdue him with hands only and have the police officers injured or killed.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 17 November 2012 8:21:16 AM
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...I have zero tolerance for drug and alcohol induced ant-social behavior. The problem developing around the use of tasers is of minor importance in its relationship to the “need” of tasers in the first instance; that being the necessity to develop methods that control psychotic behavior as a consequence of intoxication.

...This shallow society fails to recognize the primary need to “hammer” unacceptable behavior at its source, “right there” with the drug and alcohol abusers! I think it’s called personal responsibility!
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 17 November 2012 8:28:14 AM
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What an odd state of affairs for a fortunate society. Fancy all those young people or those who are dissatisfied or dispossessed who turn to drugs or alcohol for their jollies. Our society fails to integrate alcohol into its social machinations in a way in which it enriches an experience. Our youngsters drink to get drunk, to lose their self-consciousness. We fail to address the underlying social malaise of our society and choose instead to defend it by tasering the unruly.

Where I live, Woolies has built a massive state-of-the-art liquor dispenser - a bottleshop...and Coles is planning one of equal size in competition. They're the biggest construction projects around at the moment.

Wall to wall adverts aimed at young people to practice moderation in their social drinking are laughable in the face of a society that unceasingly promotes booze consumption as an end in itself, as opposed to it being just one part of a rounded social experience.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 17 November 2012 9:15:09 AM
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Not one mention yet of dogs as a tool of the constabulary? Are we going forward backwardsly?
Posted by SapperK9, Saturday, 17 November 2012 9:37:19 AM
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Those of you who are the most ardent critics of police will be very pleased to hear, the officers concerned are to face charges. What type, I've no idea ?

ARJAY...
Your thoughts that we don't need 'Robo Cops' running around with tasers killing people is most enlightening and laudable. I for one certainly hope we don't come to that. Most coppers 'walking the beat', are normal men and women, with families, mortgages, debts...the sort of thing we all have ? I know your remark was meant figuratively, rather than in a disparaging or deprecatory way ?

TONY LAVIS...
Indeed, handcuffs are a marvellous piece of equipment, provided of course they can be applied without occasioning injury to the offender, during the course of his resistive behaviour ?

Why weren't they applied to this unfortunate Brazilian chap ? I dont know I wasn't there, neither were you.

Handcuffs work fine, once they've been applied - effective application 'during' a violent encounter, is the key ! The subject of numerous discussions amongst law enforcement, and innumerable Court enquiries, for years and years I would think ?

TONY, if you know a better way, perhaps you could share that compelling knowledge, with every police member in the western world !

SAPPER K9...
I couldn't agree with you more, a K9 Unit can often quell all manner of violent and resistive behaviour. Why wasn't it deployed in this particular instance, I don't know ? Perhaps the Unit was deployed on other matters ? Also 'time' can be an issue too.

You seemingly a member/former member of the Corps of Engineers, would understand, to 'raise' a single K9 Unit, costs big bucks, thousands of Dollars in fact. Further, there are many different types of 'trained' dogs, drug interdiction, explosive , attack etc etc.
I know in my time, we never had enough of 'em to go around. A vital resource for sure.

Cheers...Sung Wu
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 17 November 2012 2:28:19 PM
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>>Could the police have handled the situation better, probably, but I have yet to hear any alternatives from the critics of the police. So here is a challenge, what would have been better'
a) let a suspected armed and violent man loose in the crowd,
b) shoot him,
C) club him senseless with batons.
d) Subdue him with hands only and have the police officers injured or killed.<<

e) None of the above.

What would have been better is if this occurred in Britain. Most of the police over there are limited to batons and incapacitant sprays and get on just fine without tasers. I suspect the British constabulary would have been more than capable - in a seven against one altercation - of quickly subduing the subject, holding him down and handcuffing him without any officers being injured or killed.

It's a pretty sad indictment on our police force that they couldn't manage this: what sort of weak little girly men are we letting become policemen if one skinny little weed with diminished co-ordination from drug abuse poses a serious threat to life and limb of seven sober opponents attacking en masse?

No need to shoot anyone, tase anyone or beat anybody 'senseless' with batons. Seven unarmed men should have no problem taking down one unarmed man without risking any serious injury unless that one unarmed man is Chuck Norris.

Clearly there is a need for some remedial hand-to-hand combat training in the NSW police force. They might like to start with 'Using superior odds in your favour: three to hold him down and four to lay the boot in' and then move on to 'Handcuffs are your friend: the joys of punching a man who is incapable of punching back'. A bit of old-fashioned police brutality would have left the victim bruised and battered but alive: thanks to the new electric version he wound up dead. Bring back the biff.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 17 November 2012 2:34:45 PM
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Hello there TONY LAVIS...

I love your quaint turn of phrase...'bring back the biff', you've no doubt had some experience in this field ?

Your comments apropos 'girly little police' or similar, is quite true in part.

Not that many years ago the Police Commissioners Conference determined that police should present as a more friendly, more approachable group, rather than the 'flat nosed', 'no neck' tough guys of yore ?

And do you know what Tony ? It came to pass ? I remember a wise old uniform sergeant once telling me; 'The public get the police force/service they deserve'. So you all wanted the more socially conscience, approachable, and 'touchy/feely' police person, and now you've got 'em ?

When I retired, I went and lived interstate. And it really doesn't matter where one lives on the Eastern Seaboard, the coppers are all the same.

I'll never for a moment defend a 'crook' copper, never ! But by hell, I'll always defend the many thousand of men and women trying to do a really tough gig, and copping all manner of, often unfair criticism, from people who've never worn blue, and know no better.

Back in the late eighties and early nineties, I did some specialized training at Hendon and later, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Don't be so sure what the British Cops do and don't do. The idyllic imagery, of the friendly, smilling Bobby showing you the way, juxtaposed with reality, is very far from the truth. Sadly, but you wouldn't know that ?

Level factual criticism at coppers, and I, and most of those in the job, will probably join you. Coppers are the harshest critics of coppers.

Take care TONY.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 17 November 2012 3:29:22 PM
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Tony Lavis you're starting to sound like some lost academic. They didn't taser that young fellow to death. That is an outrageously nasty/stupid remark. They tried to subdue him which is what has to be done when someone goes off the rails. Something then went wrong & he died. Were the tasers too strong ? Was he tasered too much ? More than likely but had he just walked down the street none of this would have happened. Stop your silly bleeding heart crap & start looking around at some home truths AND start to accept that people need to be responsible for their own actions. The Police is there to protect people from mad/crazy/weirdo?criminal types. They lose any common right once they turn bad. It's only the likes of you want to mollycoddle them with our tax Dollars.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 17 November 2012 4:22:43 PM
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Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

I believe you've captured my sentiments brilliantly, I really do ! You're so right when you assert the coppers don't wish to merely target a person for simply walking down the street.

Some behaviour, something irregular, usually attracts their attention, even then, the last thing they (coppers) wish to do is use force.

Anything constituting 'an action' involves paper...lots of 'paperwork'. And it's really good to be able to conclude a shift without the necessity to complete reams of paperwork, particularly after nightwork.

An excellent appreciation too INDIVIDUAL, of (probably) how it all went down.

Was excessive force used ?...Coroner says, yes. Was this poor bloke subjected to irregular amounts of Taser energy ? Again, the Coroner says, yes.

And, It's my belief (regrettably), the police concerned, should start buying the SMH, if for no other reason than, for the 'Jobs' section.

It would appear (I'm only surmising) - initially, an unfortunate over reaction? Together with some inexperience ? I dunno, perhaps a 'rush of blood to the head' ?

And at the end, we have a poor deceased, unfortunate young bloke. And most probably, four or five coppers - with at the very least, no further career prospects, with a distinct possibility of dismissal.

Moreover, by far the worst feature of this whole sad affair, the unfortunate death of a young man on their conscience for the rest of their respective lives ! No INDIVIDUAL, there's certainly no winners in this one, none at all.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 17 November 2012 5:53:31 PM
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Sounds to me as though tasering could be very nasty for somebody wearing a oacemaker. Anything known about that?
Posted by Outrider, Saturday, 17 November 2012 8:22:09 PM
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The two major flaws in Tony's argument are:

1 That the person would not have died if tasers were not used.
2 That policemen can without pacification subdue violently intoxicated subjects and suffer no injury.

Firstly, the coroners report did not link the death in any way to the use of tasers. Indications were that his drug ravaged poor health and violent exertions were to blame.

Secondly, there are many policemen injured maintaining the order in Kings Cross and other late night venues due to drunken and drug induced violence.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 18 November 2012 6:12:01 AM
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Hi there SHADOW MINISTER & INDIVIDUAL...

You're both spot on with your summation. There'd be no copper reporting for shift, wanting to go home in the back of an ambulance.

Everyone I've ever worked with wanted to avoid violence at all costs.
But depending on your station, your shift even the squad, violence is sometimes unavoidable. Before I left GD's (uniform) they one job that I (personally) didn't like, was that of domestic violence.

Demo's; a good 'Stink'; even a decent pub blue, were OK as far as it goes. However, domestic violence was something else again. There were never, any real winners. Similarily, no one party was completely wrong. In my book, a tough 'gig' all around. Sorry, I'm off topic.

The events that saw the unfortunate death of that young Brazilian chap, suggests culpability by police. Was it unavoidable ? I don't know, probably ? Excessive force used ? Coroner says yes. Was it the intention of police to give this young fella a lesson, worse a 'dust up', again, I don't know ? And finally, are these police for the departmental 'high jump'...utterly, absolutely, and without doubt.

Cheers...Sung Wu.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 18 November 2012 3:13:16 PM
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Interesting discussion. Surprised that so many think that tasers are an indispensable part of the police arsenal. How did they survive without them?

From what I've seen the use of the taser is frequently brutal and unnecessary and police that misuse it ought to be tried and suffer legal penalties.
Posted by GrahamY, Sunday, 18 November 2012 10:39:20 PM
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the use of the taser is frequently brutal and unnecessary
GrahamY,
I'm with you on that one. Antisocial & criminal behaviour is too. It's everyone's choice, don't you think ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 19 November 2012 8:11:03 AM
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there hasn't been anywhere near enough independent, objective research into taser safety
Kellie Tranter,
How about the criminals & those who think themselves in charge of the deranged doing some independent, objective research into criminal behaviour ?
We could do away with Tasers if they could find a way to stop people behaving badly.
Posted by individual, Monday, 19 November 2012 8:20:57 AM
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Graham,

I don't think any particular tool of restraint or control (baton, gun, etc) is indispensable. They all have their place, uses, and misuses.

The taser as a non lethal substitute for a gun has the ability to save lives. The misuse of the taser, as with the baton and gun needs to be carefully reviewed and punished if excessive.

If tackling a potentially armed suspect, what is the alternative, a gun?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 19 November 2012 2:21:05 PM
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SHADOW MINISTER...

From where I sit you speak an awful lot of good common sense, as does INDIVIDUAL.

A Taser, is just another 'force option' available to police. Like all equipment issued for the purpose of either, restraint or self defence, it's occasionally subject to misuse and sometimes, unlawful use.

Police have no authority to excercise force at all, unless and until it can be justified, and justified in a court of law.

It can be very very hard to control your emotions sometimes, after having some peanut, just spit in your face, or similar. If you do experience difficulty in 'keeping your hands in your pocket' (figuratively speaking) and this type of behaviour really enrages you, the police force as a career, is not for you.

There have been some Magistrates in NSW who've dismissed 'the information' that the 'F' and 'C' words have been directed at police. Claiming, these words are in common use today, police should not be offended by their use.

Yet, I've seen a SM gaol some bloke (contempt) for simply saying 'the word' in their Court ? Seems the Judiciary can be offended, but not police ! - perhaps they, the police are not human, and not deserving of any respect.

I'm just so glad I've retired. I don't believe I could ever resume GD's (uniform) again, the streets have changed so much, since I was paddling around 'em. And so have the Courts with respect to the old reliable statutes, that so effectively regulated even controlled, street offences.

Most of the good laws that previously protected the public; permitted most people to walk the streets with reasonably safety, have been repealed ? All in the name of people's freedoms and because we're supposed to be a more enlightened society ?

I just wish they'd tell the crooks ?

Cheers...Sung Wu
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 20 November 2012 3:49:29 PM
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