Dear Therzal,

<<Restore the country to how it was before 48 and have a democratic secular society>>

Yes, SciFi is the way to go - a time-machine that would suck all born after 1948 (that's 90.1% of the Israeli population) back into their mother's womb (to achieve that, their mothers too would need to be restored from their graves...), make the rest 64 years younger, destroy all modern cities, freeways, hi-tech industries, etc. to be replaced mainly by mud huts, tents, sheds, a few single-storey stone houses for the rich and plenty of uncultivated open spaces, complete with jackals and scorpions.

To fulfill the second half of your suggestion, you need a strong policing force, pointing at gun at each resident of the area, Jews and Arabs alike, commanding: "Be democratic or I shoot! Be secular or I shoot!".

However, there's a logical contradiction in your suggestions, since no such policing force existed before 1948, which means that the country could not be exactly as it was then. It just never was a democratic secular society.

Dear Stan,

<<There could of course be a land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea...a bit like Australia.>>

Just close your eyes and imagine that the locals are Australians...

Perhaps if may be easier to turn them all into penguins...

I suppose that if Rabin and Arafat can meet in heaven, then this is possible too!

Hi Yuyutsu

I am assuming that your response to my post was a comment that a democratic society with equal rights in Palestine/Israel is fanciful. It would certainly take a long time, but not impossible. I am aware of many talented farsighted Jews who would see it as the only alternative to the present intolerable situation, and many Palestinians who would be prepared to give it a chance.

To Stan 1:

You should heed the following comment of President Obama:

"It's important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts,and that you've thought through the ramifications before you make them."

You state:

"I am aware of many talented farsighted Jews who would see it ( a democratic society with equal rights) as the only alternative to the present intolerable situation, and many Palestinians who would be prepared to give it a chance."

How can this ever occur whilst the Palestinian Arabs make it clear in both the PLO and Hamas Charters that former Palestine is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland?

Stan1 - Fact- The Hamas Charter states:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection."

Stan1 - Fact - the PLO Charter states:

"Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong."

At least you admit: "It would certainly take a long time but not impossible"

How long Stan1? And what happens in the meantime?

My proposal - to allocate sovereignty of the West Bank between Jordan and Israel - can bring an end to what you call "the intolerable situation" within months.

Why are you and your fellow posters not prepared to discuss it?

Dear Stan,

"Intolerable" is an inappropriate adjective: Undesirable, Painful, Shameful, Sad, Disgusting, Violent, etc., of course, but the fact is that generations upon generations of Middle-Easterners tolerate the situation from cradle to grave, most despite the situation still dying of old age.

I wonder whether it is Westerners, rather than the locals, who cannot tolerate the news, the way the situation is presented by the media. Yet look at it this way: you have heard that much about the Middle-East situation, you hate what you hear (and so do I), yet your ears still remain in the same place on your skull, so you must be tolerating it too.

Certainly there are people of good will in the Middle East, quite a few of them on, but the modus operandi there is that the violent and extremists, those who are willing to die for their respective sick causes, are those who are in control and ever shall be, not the majority of us, softies, who care more to have a good life than to fight and risk theirs. We have not departed that far from our cousins, the baboons - Darwinism and the rule of the jungle is the name-of-the-game.

David Singer

Silly of me David to propose a democratic state with equal votes and rights in the light of your quotes from the PLO and Hammas. You could have reinforced your argument with quotes from Ariel Sharon "... there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." "Everyone has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours - everything we don't grab will go to them." (Agence France Presse 15 Nov 1998.)

How long this would take David and what would happen in the meantime would depend on goodwill from both sides and that includes the Jewish side and what they teach in schools and whether they stop their ethnic cleansing and the brutality of their occupation.

Israel has successfully destroyed any chance of a two state solution, and the removal of millions of Palestinians from their traditional homeland to the East of the River Jordan is not going to happen.

So start thinking David of a one state solution - a Palestine/Israel which is democratic and offers civil and human rights to all its citizens and forget the racism inherent in the idea of a home for the Jews and only the Jews.

#To Stan1

Four comments:

1. Ariel Sharon's remarks in 1998 were made by one individual - who was not even then Prime Minister.

The PLO Charter has been the official platform of the PLO for the last 47 years and continues to be so. The Hamas Charter has been in existence since 1988.

2. By 2005 - as Israeli Prime Minister since 2001 - Sharon oversaw the withdrawal of all 8000 Jews from Gaza. Hardly an example of grabbing more land - indeed exactly the opposite.

The PLO and Hamas however make it clear they want every square meter of former Palestine as part of the Arab homeland.

3. You state:

"Israel has successfully destroyed any chance of a two state solution, and the removal of millions of Palestinians from their traditional homeland to the East of the River Jordan is not going to happen."

Two offers by Israel in 2000/1 and 2008 to cede its claim to more than 90% of the West Bank were rejected by the Palestinian Authority. Who has destroyed and continues to destroy the two-state solution by failing to return unconditionally to the negotiating table?

My proposal to subdivide the West Bank between Israel and Jordan means that not one Arab will have to move from his current home to the East of the Jordan River,

4, You state:

" ...forget the racism inherent in the idea of a home for the Jews and only the Jews"

Strange - but don't 1.6 million Arabs now live in Israel as citizens of Israel along with 5.9 million Jews? What evidence do you have to indicate this is going to change to make Israel a home for the Jews and only the Jews?

The PLO want a state in which no Jews will be allowed to reside - as the PLO and Hamas platforms state. Isn't that racist? Why don't you condemn this policy as racist?

As President Obama said - check your facts before you make unfounded and unsubstantiated statements.