@Pericles:

‘How do you feel about rats?’

Again, people seem to want to talk about anything but the argument I presented in the article. We’re talking about oysters, rats, whether or not I drive a car, what is natural etc – rather than what the article was about. I’ve said similar things many times already, but if my argument about eating/wearing animal products from cows, pigs, sheep and chickens was so ridiculous, I don’t see why you want to talk about poisoning rats to prevent disease. But anyway, let’s talk about rats.

I think it is clear that rats are sentient so I certainly oppose their exploitation (such as having household/cosmetic products tested on them). I honestly don’t know enough about the problems of rats and disease to comment on the issue you brought up, however, I would certainly support non-lethal/harmful solutions to this problem – if it is one. Even if the killing of rats to prevent disease was justified, what does that have to do with whether it is justifiable to drink cow’s milk because we like the taste or wear a leather jacket because we like that it is made of real leather? I think the example I raise in the article – opposing the slaughter of puppies, while not having a problem with the slaughter of other animals who are just as sentient, is an example of speciesism.

‘What I do have a problem with is your need to convince others that it is something more than a lifestyle choice, but is somehow a deeply important ethical statement. It is not.’

Lifestyle choices are based on your interests – how you like to spend your time, where you like to go holiday etc. Yes, I believe veganism is a ‘deeply important ethical statement’ because it is about opposing slaughter (and exploitation, confinement etc) – rather than just an interest or something me and others like to do.

@Pericles, I’ll also respond to some of the arguments you made to @CatMack:

‘I have the evidence of many millennia on my side.’

Yes but all kinds of things have been occurring forever, doesn’t mean they’re right.

‘…via a concerted effort to anthropomorphize the creatures that we use for food.’

It is not anthropomorphic to suggest that other animals also suffer and desire to carry on living. There just happens to be some features that we share with other animals.

‘On current evidence, people will stop eating meat only when it becomes uneconomic to do so’

Actually, veganism is on the rise. Check out a few articles on this which are published very separately to animal advocates here if you’d like:

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9KICAT00.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/05/27/f-vegan-power.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_46/b4203103862097.htm

Maybe it's just me, but this discussion seems to be going nowhere, Mr Pendergrast.

>>@Pericles: ‘How do you feel about rats?’ Again, people seem to want to talk about anything but the argument I presented in the article.<<

Surely, you base your entire argument on "how you feel about cows/pigs/sheep", do you not? Starting with "how do you feel about dogs" - phrased as "what's all the fuss about puppy slaughter", and working on from there. How can you possibly object to the introduction of other life forms into the discussion?

It might help if you took some of these ideas on board, instead of simply repeating your mantra... "opposing slaughter (and exploitation, confinement etc)".

And while I am sure that Catflap can answer for him/herself, you are not discussing, simply rejecting...

>>Yes but all kinds of things have been occurring forever, doesn’t mean they’re right.<<

And for the (seemingly) hundredth time, I agree with this.

But Catnip and I were talking about what is "natural", as in "comes naturally to a human being". You obviously did not bother to read my response, which pointed out that eating meat is as natural a function of the human experience as eating vegetables. It is not an unnatural act. Slitting the throat of a puppy in front of a five-year-old, however, is an unnatural act, and was deemed so by the court.

Which of the above do you disagree with? That eating meat is a natural act? That eating vegetables is a natural act? That slitting the throat of a puppy in front of a five-year-old is an unnatural act?

Look, you are perfectly entitled to ignore anything and everything that I post here, just as you are perfectly within your rights to be vegan. But it is pretty pointless to simply regurgitating the same emotions, in order to allow yourself the luxury of disregarding the points that anyone else might make.

Have a happy vegan life. So far, though, it has to be said that you are giving the vegan experience a pretty poor reputation for intellectual rigour.

@Pericles:

‘this discussion seems to be going nowhere, Mr Pendergrast.’

Perhaps you’re right. If people want to carry on discussing this, I’ll reply. If not, that’s fine with me too.

‘How can you possibly object to the introduction of other life forms into the discussion?’

I have not objected to such examples and have written about rats, oysters, whether I drive a car etc – I was just making the point that if people thought the argument in the article was so ridiculous, why would they have to bring up other examples where they think the case for animal rights might be weaker to somehow disprove the main argument I made in the article.

‘It might help if you took some of these ideas on board, instead of simply repeating your mantra... "opposing slaughter (and exploitation, confinement etc)".’

I have certainly responded to all of the issues raised so far. In terms of taking the ideas on board – I will change my position on whatever issue if I hear an argument that is stronger than the arguments for the position I currently hold – that just hasn’t been the case in this exchange. Yes I have repeated points, but that is because people have raised similar questions/comments.

‘eating meat is as natural a function of the human experience as eating vegetables. It is not an unnatural act. Slitting the throat of a puppy in front of a five-year-old, however, is an unnatural act, and was deemed so by the court.’

Okay, the court deemed this was an unnatural act, but I’m not sure what that proves. If we take the kid out of the equation and just talk about puppy slaughter in general, I don’t see why eating meat from animals besides puppies is more natural than eating puppy meat like the man in the article I discussed did. Eating meat from pigs, cows etc is natural if natural is defined as we have been doing it a long time, I just don’t see what that has to do with whether we should be doing it now or not.

*Yes, I believe veganism is a ‘deeply important ethical statement’ because it is about opposing slaughter*

Well all that you have proven so far Nick, is that veganism is a
deeply flawed, even if well meant philosophy. As you concede, you
would rather deny some animals a life, if they can't die at the time
of their choosing or of natural causes, even if that means increased
suffering. The law of unintended consequences is never far away,
as it is in this case. Denying my sheep years of happy lives is
all that you would achieve. They would protest loudly, if given a
choice. Luckily for them, you don't influence their lives, how ever
well meant your cause.

@Yabby:

‘As you concede, you would rather deny some animals a life, if they can't die at the time of their choosing or of natural causes, even if that means increased suffering.’

I am not in favour of increasing suffering, I am in favour of euthanasia for other animals, just as for humans. Of course it is trickier for other animals who can’t speak, however, if an animal has a chronic and irreversible condition and they are suffering a lot and someone decides it is in the animal’s best interest to be euthanised, I don’t have a problem with that. It is a totally different situation, however, to kill someone when it is in your economic interests to do so, then after the fact argue it is actually done in the name of the animal’s best interests and reducing suffering.

Though it is clear, as @Pericles has pointed out above, this conversation is going around in circles at this point.

‘Denying my sheep years of happy lives is all that you would achieve. They would protest loudly, if given a choice.’

I have seen many animals “protesting” and struggling to avoid slaughter. Also, I am all in favour of giving the animals the happiest life possible in an animal sanctuary, rather than a slaughterhouse.