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The Forum > Article Comments > Taking Islam seriously 101 > Comments

Taking Islam seriously 101 : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 18/9/2012

Some claim the film in question is intolerant of Islam. But intolerance is a function of our tenet of free speech.

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You are right to condemn the protesters in Sydney. Their behaviour and their determination to cause trouble was, and always will be, reprehensible.

However, your article is simply one of many adding fuel to the fire. In one of your previous opinion pieces you bemoaned the willingness of the Australian people to accept mass media commentary about Israel; yet here you are doing much the same thing about Islam. Even your title is alarmist.

You state:

<<Fairfax Media parroted the vice-president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Ikebal Patel, condemning the crowd violence.>>

<<An icon of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sayyid Qutb, often taught that Islam is indeed a religion of “peace” but ... He defined “peace” as a condition where (at best) all submit to Allah or (at worst) all live in an Islamic state (the infidels under onerous conditions). To achieve such goals, war must be waged.>>

<<Daily, Arab school children both in the Muslim world and even in the United Kingdom are taught that Jews are the descendents of monkeys and pigs. And how Adolf Hitler was a great man.>>

Let’s put this into perspective shall we? ‘Parroting’ implies no understanding of what is being said. What you should have said is that Fairfax Media ‘reported’ the sentiments of the AFIC, which is their job. And Ikebal Patel is not Sayyid Qutb – not all Muslims are the same. Why have you brushed aside the AFIC’s comments and concentrated on those of the Brotherhood?

There is no doubt that SOME Arab schools preach anti-semitism and anti-Western doctrine. But not all, as your statement implies. And how does such indoctrination differ from that of, say, SOME Jewish schools who preach Zionism? Intolerance doesn't discriminate.

You ask why there were no demonstrations about Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”. But there were. Many, by Catholics and Jews alike. Even PETA got in on it. The difference was there was none of the violence that is the trademark of Islamic fundamentalist protests. And what you fail to actually state (just loosely imply) is that not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

(cont’)
Posted by scribbler, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 8:47:10 AM
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Finally, and most importantly, there is this:

<<Given the film in question was uploaded to YouTube over eleven weeks ago, on 2 July, one can only conclude that Saturday’s protest – in the light of the slogans paraded in abundance - had little to do with the film but a great deal to do with the way a few Muslims perceive their religion is portrayed in the Western world.>>

Actually, Mr Ariel, the film had everything to do with providing an excuse for the most radical element of Islam to protest. It was not the uploading of the clip onto YouTube in July that caused this outrage. It was the dubbing of it into Arabic and the showing of it on Islamic TV this month that sparked the protests worldwide and is now provoking such strong anti-muslim sentiment. As, of course, it was intended to do by whomever was responsible. It was timed to perfection and it will have huge repercussions over the coming months.

Call me a cynic, but I can’t help thinking that at this incredibly tense time, in the lead up to the US election and with Netanyahu’s wrist still stinging from the slap he received by the Obama administration (and other western leaders) over Iran, Netanyahu and Likud must be rubbing their hands together with collective glee.

Far worse, if the racist and religious bigotry by ordinary western people, as witnessed on this form over the last few days, is any indication of what is to come, then God (and Allah) help us all.
Posted by scribbler, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 8:49:11 AM
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The Premier's job is actually pretty easy:

Step 1: Let the police round up the thugs: they're better at that sort of thing than politicians. And lynch mobs.

Step 2: Let the courts convict the thugs: the separation of the legislature and the judiciary means the Premier doesn't get a look in here.

Step 3: Let the media have a feeding frenzy making an example of the thugs: and boy will they.

The Premier gets to sit around while everyone else does the heavy lifting. We already have laws and mechanisms in place to deal with this sort of antisocial behaviour. All he has to do is condemn the thugs in interviews, support the actions of the police and have faith in the judicial system: that usually satisfies the voters.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 9:39:26 AM
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What a particularly good time for some leadership to be shown by the leaders of our political parties, and also from those claiming to speak for the Moslems in the community.

Julia and Tony could perhaps spell out that Australia is a secular society and that the laws of the land overide any personal belief. The defense-"God told me to do it" won't get any consideration in the law courts. Even more interesting would be to know what the word "god" means to them personally. I would welcome anyone's definition provided that is backed by reasoning and solid evidence.

Anyone wanting to become part of Australian society is welcome to believe anything, however absurd; but please don't expect anyone else to be convinced.
Posted by Noelreg, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 11:49:38 AM
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In a decent society founded on the Enlightenment - of which Australia is one - NO religion has the power to silence opposition to it. The claim for the right to silence opposition - whether the opposition be anywhere from non-compliance to open debunking including ridicule - is a feature of Islam, in its ideological DNA. The claim is made not only by the “behead the dissenters” bully-boys in Martin Place but all the way through to Islam’s “holy books” and its leading ecclesiastics. The reward offered for murdering British author Salman Rushdie for obliquely questioning some of Mohammed’s assertions has recently been hiked to more than $3 million. It's an open call to Moslems everywhere. Where are the Moslem voices insisting “No way!”?

Half-baked films which can only sneer are not the answer. Condemning terrorism or hooliganism isn’t the answer. The answer is public rebuttal of the intolerance of dissent which is embedded in the basic Islamic texts. It is persistent challenge to all Moslems over where Islam - worldwide - stands on the right to unbelief, to apostasy, to blasphemy, to impiety. No weaselling out, no taqiyya. Religions which unequivocally tolerate dissent are worthy of tolerance in return. Any which doesn’t isn’t.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 1:03:41 PM
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Two Christian Pastors were charged in Victoria by the Christophobes for saying what John J said in a far mmore loving way. Go figure. The secularist involved in the disgusting case should be held to public shame as the Pastors have been proven right time and time again. What a delusion the Islamic apologist are under as they so often display their Christophobic natures and apologise for such atrocities..
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 1:34:21 PM
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great article
thank you
Posted by SC, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 3:29:29 PM
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One of the defining qualities of our culture is that everything is open to challenge, God is … and yes, even Einstein does not go unchallenged.

Another, emerging feature of our culture is that we seem to produce gaggles –of doubtlessly well meaning people--who believe that it is simply not fair to apply our critical facilities to certain creeds –particularly those with a high proportion of non-English speaking adherents. And when confronted with a critique of one such creed will come out with well chewed summations, like:

“ There is good and bad in all”

And, delight in singing “every creed is beautiful in its own way”

Well, sorry, but it aint so –some creeds are down right UGLY.

As a culture we appear to be increasingly afflicted with a variant of the virus that that we experienced in financial terms during the GFC. At the time of the GFC some banks –for all their badness-- were deemed just “too big to fail”.The current variant is that some creeds for all their badness -- are too big to criticize .

[cont..
Posted by SPQR, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 5:11:58 PM
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Funnily enough, the fairness aficionados seem to know without a shadow of a doubt that all Nazi’s are evil, all racists are evil, all pedophilic priests are evil and all corporations involves in coal or oil extraction are evil, and would scratch any representatives of the aforementioned to death if given half the opportunity.

But even tangential criticism of such previously alluded to creeds, along the lines of :
<<Daily, Arab school children both in the Muslim world and even in the United Kingdom are taught that Jews are the descendents of monkeys and pigs. And how Adolf Hitler was a great man.>>

Are met with what amounts to flat denials –without any attempt to test the claim –or chargers that some other creed does it too, “so there!” –again without any attempt to check it.

Now I don’t mind –well I do, but I can swallow it – if we have determined ala the cold war US v Russia that we have decided not to attack each other to avoid MAD(ness). But please let’s not hide behind the pretence that it’s all about FAIRNESS & HONESTY.

And one more thing: why are some of us now shocked with scenes like this: http://tinyurl.com/987wsar

When we have known all along about happenings like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltsv40vCP7g

And like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIBrs4_b98

Some creeds are down right UGLY --and some of us, slow on the uptake.
Posted by SPQR, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 5:15:12 PM
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I stopped at the title, I must admit

Taking Islam seriously 101

How ? I can't take astrology seriously, or the tooth fairy seriously, how can I take Islam, Christianity, Judaism the Easter Bunny etal seriously ?
Posted by Valley Guy, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 11:49:38 PM
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