suddenly Alan believes in absolutes. What a surprise and no doubt an affront to his philosophies.

'Can anyone recall a direct lie from John Hewson, Tim Fischer, John Anderson, Simon Crean, Brendan Nelson, Malcolm Turnbull, Bob Brown, Kevin Rudd or Warren Truss – to name just nine past or present party leaders?'

Please give us a break. When someone dumps the biggest moral challenge of the century on advice from Gillard. Hatred does blind to the truth.

runner,

One day you might desist from the habit of ascribing "hatred" to those who hold an opposing opinion to your own.

Not very Christian and all that.

There are several problems with this approach, but I see three as most important.

Firstly, as Pilate said, “what is truth”? Many political “facts” are not data but interpretations, and so there is no absolute benchmark for determining what is true. When we claim to use the benchmark of truth or lies to judge a politician we may really be saying, “which side do I believe” – and that, of course, will be the one whose policies you are most likely to agree with. So this just gives a sanctimonious overlay to a process of reinforcing our preconceptions (the vitriol cast on recent US presidents of both political stripes by their opponents seems to me an example of this).

Second, to be a liar means not just saying something mistaken but something you know us untrue. Did Howard know that there were no WMDs in Iraq, or that refugees did not throw their children overboard? Perhaps, but can we be sure?

Third, the theatre of politics is such that politicians are routinely cornered – often by the press – into making categorical statements and commitments that they are not always able to fulfil:

“Will you promise that a Gillard/Abbott government will never do X….”

And often the promise is often forthcoming, because in good faith the politician believes that they will never do X. But once elected, X turns out to be the right thing to do. Should we then want them to continue with bad policies for the sake of keeping their promise, or change their mind for the sake of the country? For example, many governments elected before the GFC would have promised the keep budgets in surplus. But given the need for fiscal stimulus and bailouts, and the drop in revenue from reduced economic activity, almost every developed country went into budget deficit

Interesting discussion. Thank you. Just a few responses:

@DavidL: Re “Alan is to the left of the Democrats”.

Is this a compliment or an insult, David? What does ‘left’ mean these days?

@Jayb: Re “It's not that they lie. It's that they colour the truth.”
And @Rhian: Re “to be a liar means not just saying something mistaken but something you know us untrue.”

When Tony Jones asked Tony Abbott if he had met with Cardinal Pell and Mr Abbott replied “Not that I can recall”, did he know it was untrue when he said it? Was that a lie or colouring the truth?

Or from John Howard in 2001: “The Government’s position remains that we were advised by Defence that children were thrown overboard, we made those allegations on the basis of that advice ...”

This was a statement made after Defence Minister’s adviser Mike Scrafton had told the then PM: “I left him in no doubt that there was no evidence, that there were no children thrown overboard.”

@Jayb: Re “All the Hierarchy do it in order to advance their particular stance …” and
@Jon J: “Politicians have always lied …”

Really? Are you sure? That is pretty much the point of the article. Can you identify any point blank lies – like those, above, from Tony Abbott and John Howard – from Simon Crean, Brendan Nelson, Malcolm Turnbull, Bob Brown or Kevin Rudd? Or Julia Gillard?

I mean actual staring-down-the-barrel-of-the-camera bare-faced lies – not just unfulfilled promises.

@Jayb: Re “The only way to put a stop to all this is to make the Law "Black & White" with penalties …”

Why not just make it a firm practice simply to vote out the liars – say, after two direct lies? Would this fix the problem?

@Roses1, did you read this re Rupert’s propaganda in Australia?
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12286

Do you agree?

Cheers, AA

@Roses,

<<Yes Alan I think politicians can definitely be classified as those who often lie (e.g Abbott, Ryan) and those who generally don't (e.g. *GILLARD*, Turnbull)>>

ROFL

Surely you josh, Roses!

Alan: Or from John Howard in 2001: “The Government’s position remains that we were advised by Defence that children were thrown overboard, we made those allegations on the basis of that advice ...”

This was a statement made after Defence Minister’s adviser Mike Scrafton had told the then PM: “I left him in no doubt that there was no evidence, that there were no children thrown overboard.”

So, was Scafton there at the scene? Scafton, DM's Advisor or PC Advisor?

Anzac day & Reunions are good fun & informative. You get to talk to servicemen who were actually at the scene when things happen. And, as I have been reminded on many occasions, when given information by the IO, “The Secrets Act Form you signed when you did your Service still holds.” All veterans have "D" clearance, some have "E" & higher, depending on the position you held. I have been told on more than one occasion, by Service men, some Officers, that the children were definitely thrown overboard & there was Video of that happening, but it quickly disappeared after the Politically Correct Crowd got involved.

Howard acted on advice he received first up. Then the Politically Correct crowd got into the argument & that fact had to be then withdrawn. So, a truth becomes a lie when it interfered with Political Correctness. It was turned into a lie so as not to vilify the illegal boat people.

The problem that Governments have is with truth interfering with Political Correctness. It is a big one. Unfortunately Governments have been persuaded by the Do Gooder Crowd to err on the side of PC. The Issue, whatever it is, then becomes a farce.