David you state "Richard Falk - United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967" - provides compelling proof of how successful the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) has been in its attempt to bury historical fact and international law regarding the former territory of Palestine."

Note: Former Territory of Palestine

Note: The former territory in what is now Israel prior to their occupation was home to the Arabs.

It should still be home to the Arabs, including all Palestinians regardless of what the UN, League of Nations (Western Imperial organisations) purported to impose on the then indigenous population.

You can spruik all the facts you like, you just don't have a humanitarian or rational bone in your body.

Your continued posting of this blinkered version of history is immoral to say the least.

The just powers of government derive from the consent of the governed. The Palestinians did not vote to be ruled by the Mandate nor by the British nor by the League of Nations. Therefore all references to Balfour and the Mandate are absurd and beneath contempt.

Gaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem did not vote to be ruled by Israel therefore they live under tyrannical, jewish military dictatorship.

The idea that a religion has any right in any law whatsoever to a country is an absurd idea. Jews have no right to a state under any construct of law. The US explained that to the Latter Day Saints in 1838.

They do not. Why is this racist pap continually peddled by Singer on this site?

Israel, just another more modern crusader city state. When the external finances and new bodies dry up they'll go the same way as the earlier crusader city states. The old ones basically lost when they stoppped getting the external finance and new soldiers from Europe, so I don't see it being any different this time around.

DKit

What is the Singer going to talk about when Nutty Yahoo nukes Iran?

Perhaps the Israeli attack will incur not only a ferocious payback from Iran but it will galvanize the other Muslim States in the region into action against this Johnny-come-lately group of fanatical, anachronistic religious colonialists. They will all try to get nukes!

It could also unite the rest of the world against the racist rogue State of Israel and lead to it being shunned as it rightly should be.

You give some people a length of rope and they'll end up hanging themselves.

This will be the eventual fate of Israel!

I think the leadership of Israel have totally lost it.30 countries have recently met in Tehran who represent 50% of the world's pop and they are resolved not to let an attack happen on Syria,let alone Iran.

Mr Singer the global power plays have shifted dramaticly and Israel had better take heed.

I heard the refrain “Look Away! Look Away! Look Away!” and thought I would drop in.

The Israeli government and right-wing radicals like Mr Singer would have us 'Look Away' as they go about business of taking the bloody lot.

It is sobering to think our own original inhabitants have ownership of more than twice the percentage of our nation than the Palestinians now have of Palestine, and yet greedy swine like Mr Singer are not content and want more, much more, as much as they can get away with.

It is deplorable, immoral, reprehensible and an affront to any notion of a fair go! Truly sickening.

But while I am sympathetic with Marilyn's assessment of Mr singer's offerings as “racist pap” I am more than happy to see them posted on this site. We need to keep flipping over rocks to see what is beneath them and Mr Singer's articles allow us that view, however unpleasant we might find the sight.

#To Geoff of Perth

I am pleasantly surprised that you now appear prepared to discuss the subject matter of my articles - although you still can't resist the temptation to throw in terms and vague phrases that are meaningless and misleading and also take a shot at me personally in the process.

You state:

"Note: The former territory in what is now Israel prior to their occupation was home to the Arabs.

It should still be home to the Arabs, including all Palestinians regardless of what the UN, League of Nations (Western Imperial organisations) purported to impose on the then indigenous population."

In response might I say:

1. What is now Israel was prior to its founding in 1948 also home to hundreds of thousands of Jews.

2. Proposals to partition Palestine (which included Jordan) in 1937 and 1947 would have required few Jews or Arabs to leave their then existing homes. These proposals if accepted by the Arabs would have ended the conflict.

3. 1,200,000 Arabs still live in Israel today.

4. Neither the League of Nations nor the United Nations can be branded as "Western Imperial organizations". America was not even a member of the 51 member League of Nations.

5. No "indigenous population" existed - as was made clear by the Mandate document which referred only to "the existing non-Jewish communities". In 1922, 589,000 Moslems, 83,000 Jews, and 71,000 Christians lived in Palestine.

Now you and Mr Falk are entitled to your opinion that the law should be totally disregarded as well as wanting to bury your heads in the sand and ignore what has happened in the last 95 years. In my opinion a peaceful resolution to the 130 years old conflict between Jews and Arabs will certainly not be found in these ideas.

To #The Iron Webmaster

You state:

"The just powers of government derive from the consent of the governed. The Palestinians did not vote to be ruled by the Mandate nor by the British nor by the League of Nations."

Might I comment:

1. The Arabs throughout the Arabian peninsula did not vote to be ruled by the Ottoman Empire for 400 years - but they were so governed.

2. The Mandate for Palestine was part of a systems of Mandates which divided up the conquered territory of the Ottoman Empire between Arabs and Jews - giving the Arabs 99.99% and the Jews 0.01%

3. The West Bank Arab population voted to unify the West Bank with Transjordan (now Jordan) in 1950 and to become Jordanian citizens with Jordanian passports.

Can you explain why having so consented - they should now be entitled to go back on that arrangement and have their own separate state in the West Bank?

Isn't it perhaps more realistic to achieve a resolution of the ongoing conflict by reunifying the West Bank with Jordan (so far as is now possible) and returning to the governance arrangements that were in place between 1948-1967?

Mr. Singer, referencing your numbers

1) You recite rather nonsensically about the Arabian Peninsula which the Ottomans never ruled but on the rather generous assumption you meant the places the Ottomans really ruled, I agree that Israel has no more legitimacy than the Ottomans. Israel abjured rule by right of conquest when it joined the UN. There are no exceptions to this.

1a) You will note the caveat JUST to powers referencing the US Declaration of Independence and the right of the colonials to kill off those who would rule them unjustly all to the cheers of unjustly ruled peoples everywhere.

2) No one voted to be ruled by the Mandate countries therefore they had no just powers. That is a premise of political philosophy which has been in conflict with pragmatism ever since but it still exists as the premise of American independence.

2a) In return for assistance against the Ottomans the Palestinians were promised freedom not foreign rule by the British who were even more foreign (in the other sense) that the Ottomans. Obviously Mandate rule was absent the consent of the governed.

3) If in fact there was such an open vote to be ruled by Jordan then in fact the Israeli rule of those who voted including Jerusalem is clearly jewish tyranny.

3a) As Jordan relinquished claims upon Jerusalem and the West Bank as part of the peace treaty two important things occurred. The people were free to choose their own destiny and the Israeli justification of its squattertowns as military necessity lost all legitimacy. So Palestinians are prevented from exercising their human right of self-determination by a tyrannical, jewish military dictatorship. And there are nearly a million war criminal Jews living in occupied territory in segregated squattertowns. Note this has been a hanging offense since Nuremberg.

The only possible solution is immediately end the Jewish dictatorship without excuse or exception. Then the Palestinians can exercise their right of self-determination in any manner they choose. It is their business and only their business. Only in antisemitic jokes do Jews know what is best for others.

Mr Singer elaboration is desirable here.

It is impossible for Palestinians to have voted to join Transjordan in 1950 as it ceased to exist in 1922 on San Remo maps.

In any event the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan included a renunciation of territorial claims in favor of the indigenous population not the foreign jewish military tyranny.

The concept of just powers is ancient and does not entail voting. It is merely a matter of consent. Consent even if once accepted is withdrawn by revolt. I suggest you actually read the colonial Declaration of Independence. Consent can be withdrawn when rule becomes unbearable. It is a tremendously pragmatic document once shorn of the mythical "what is really means" nonsense. No, it never means democracy or voting. Those are only means of giving consent and quite often flawed ones.

Just in passing I would point out Palestine is recognized as a state by more countries than recognize Kosovo and by more countries than recognize Israel for that matter. The US recognizes both Kosovo and Israel. UN membership has nothing to do with recognition as a state.

As for giving "jews" so little. The natives Jews of Palestine did not recognize the eastern European foreigners, the Zionists, in their claim to a state and often not even as Jews. The Zionists gave them a theocratic state in return for their silence. There were a few exceptions in that the state's definition of who is a jew was the same one the Nazis adopted from the Zionists. See "The Invention of the Jewish People" for further details.

As to the little being 0.01% you can't get close to that without the nonsense inclusion of Arabia. It only arises by counting all those who speak a variant of Arabic whom Zionists call Arabs in the "jewish people" (non)sense.

It was no one's to give.

Ethnic cleansing was required else the entire Zionist nonsense would have been voted out of existence in the first election.

To #The Iron Webmaster

The following factual errors and comments in your two posts make your conclusions and opinions irrelevant:

1. I did not "recite rather nonsensically about the Arabian Peninsula which the Ottomans never ruled". Read what I said again.

2.The Arabs - not the "Palestinians" - were promised freedom and they got it under the same Mandate system as the Jewish people.

3.There was indeed a vote by West Bank Arabs to unify the west bank with Transjordan which led to the unified country being called Jordan. You obviously were unaware of these facts when you made your inane comment.

4. Jordan did not attempt to relinquish its claims upon Jerusalem and the West Bank as part of the 1994 peace treaty. It did that in 1988 - although the peace treaty assigns Jordan special rights in Jerusalem and the final status of the West Bank was still to be determined..

5. At the last count there were 500000 - not 1,000,000 - Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

6. The Arabs have their own sovereign independent state in Jordan - comprising 78% of the territory of Palestine included in the Mandate.

7. Transjordan did not cease to exist in 1922. It remained part of the Mandate until it achieved independence in 1946.

8. If Palestine is recognized as a State by more countries than recognize Kosovo or Israel - why are you claiming the Palestinian Arabs "are prevented from exercising their human right of self-determination by a tyrannical, jewish military dictatorship." To have such a widely recognized state they must surely have already gained self-determination.

9. Who were "the native Jews of Palestine"?

10.The use of pejorative terms and phrases like "tyranny", "Jewish dictatorship", "war criminal Jews" "Nazis" "Nuremberg", "Zionist nonsense" and "segregated squattertowns" identify you as a Jew-hater and not someone who is seriously concerned in trying to get any resolution of the conflict other than by ending the right of the Jewish people to self determination in their biblical and historic homeland.

Dialogue with you is a waste of time

Mr Singer

[quote]Might I comment:

1. The Arabs throughout the Arabian peninsula did not vote to be ruled by the Ottoman Empire for 400 years - but they were so governed.[quote]

What might that mean but Ottoman rule of the Peninsula?

[quote]2.The Arabs - not the "Palestinians" - were promised freedom and they got it under the same Mandate system as the Jewish people. [/quote]

It was reneging on that promise to the Palestinians that resulted in the resignation of T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia) as that is what he was authorized to promise. The secret Sykes-Picot agreement was the real plan of Britain and France which does in fact specifically address the split up of Palestine-Syria into Syria in the north and the so-called Trans-Jordan in the south. Going back over 2500 years as mentioned by Herodotus and the chronicles of Alexander's conquests these two regions were Palestine-Syria. That is centuries before Jews appeared in history.

Mr. Singer,

Re: 3, If I am in error as to a vote by the Palestinians west of the Jordan River to join the British invented kingdom of Jordan I await enlightenment by you as to the date and particulars of that vote. As there was no territory known as the "west bank" until 1967 I will have much to learn from the URLs you will provide. Please do so.

In the matter of 4, we disagree only on the date not the substance of region being relinquished in favor of the Palestinians, not Arabs, Palestinians since at least 2500 BC.

Re: 5, You agree there are at least a half million Jewish war criminals living in Jerusalem and the West Bank. That is the point. It is not worth digression upon the exact number of criminals.

Re: 6, Regardless of the breakout it was not done with the consent of the governed and thus it has no standing. Colonial actions have lost all legal standing in any event. Britain had no just power to divide the land.

Re: 7, The Mandate called it the Transjordan. It divided into Palestine and Jordan by Britain. That is included in every discussion of the subject.

Dave, do you live in Israel, if not why not !!

>>burying the past, faking the future>>

Does the region have a future?

Or is it all going to end in radioactive ashes?

BOOM!, there goes around a quarter of the world's oil pumping capacity.

Now might be a good time to sell your car and learn to ride a bicycle.

You sure aren't going to be able to afford petrol AB (After BOOM!)

On the other hand we won't have Iran's mad mullahs to worry about and the Salfists won't be getting any more Saudi petrodollars.

Come to think of it how many Salafists will still be around?

If you've always had a hankering to see the pyramids and the sphinx don't wait.

BOOM!

BTW folks in case you think my previous post is a joke in bad taste, it isn't.

I quite literally think a hundred million plus deaths are inevitable. If Israel goes down Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria will cease to exist.

Believe it.

In the end the Israelis will push the button.

What do you think 200 airbursts can do?

Those that don't die immediately will die of disease and starvation. There literally will not be enough people to bury the dead. It will be impossible to get food and water and medicines to the survivors.

It will be the greatest horror the world has seen. In the space of a few hours more people will die than in both world wars combined.

Steven, that makes two of us who seem to be aware of what is coming. Everyone else is unaware or asleep.

The media is not dealing with the approaching nuclear holocaust which will be started by Israel. We are living in a Fool's Paradise.

The creation of Israel will prove to be mankind's greatest mistake!

David G wrote:

>>The creation of Israel will prove to be mankind's greatest mistake!>>

No, the murderous centuries long obsessive hatred of Jews will prove to be "mankind's greatest mistake".

Steven, like the Singer, you put all the blame on other groups of people.

If there has been hatred of Jews over centuries then there must be some reason for this which must have something to do with Jews themselves.

One only has to look at the brutality and cruelty of the Jews in relationship to the Palestinians to see where much of the guilt lies.

But, Steven, this is not a time to apportion blame. This is a time when we who see what is coming must stop the Israeli madness before it begins and consumes us all.

To #The Iron Webmaster

Have you got a screw loose or can't you understand what I told you - which I will repeat again:

"The use of pejorative terms and phrases like "tyranny", "Jewish dictatorship", "war criminal Jews" "Nazis" "Nuremberg", "Zionist nonsense" and "segregated squattertowns" identify you as a Jew-hater and not someone who is seriously concerned in trying to get any resolution of the conflict other than by ending the right of the Jewish people to self determination in their biblical and historic homeland.

Dialogue with you is a waste of time"

To the Singer:

Do you realize what will happen to Jews across the world if Israel precipitates a nuclear war? Israel is digging its own grave and that of Jewry!

Why don't you consider Steven's chilling words and put your efforts into trying to stop the crazies in Israel entertaining the idea of nuking Iran?

Mr. Singer,

Re: 8. I am talking about the Palestinians who are not Arabs and who have been around for over 2500 years. The jewish fantasy about them being Arabs is quite silly. They are people whose ancestors converted to Islam from Judaism.

8a That they are recognized is unrelated to their being forced to live under a tyrannical, jewish military dictatorship. That is the deprivation of the human right of self-determination.

Re: 9, The native Jews of Palestine are those who first rose to power in proxy war between the Seleucids and the Ptolemys under the Maccabes. They used military conquest to force the Samaritans and Galileans to convert to their Yahweh cult including the barbaric practice of circumcision. At least that is how the priest Josephus described it happening. His is the only credible source.

9a, That this is the anniversary of the Hebron riot it is good you bring this up as the target of the riot were the Ashkenazi. The native Sephardim were only attacked after they gave refuge to eastern European foreigners who had announced they were going to take over Palestine. Read HAARETZ.COM today for details.

Re 10, I used terms which are correct and properly descriptive on the nature of jewish rule over the Palestinians. That do can't handle the truth but have to revert to "Mommy, he hates me' does not make them any less accurate or descriptive.

I direct your attention to the very old news in "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Sand. Jews are only a religion. Religions have no right to self-determination. The US explained that to the Mormons in 1838.

The towns are segregated Jews-only. The IDF rules the Palestinians therefore it is military rule. The Palestinians did not choose to be so ruled so it is a dictatorship.

End the occupation. It only took six years to move a million Russians a thousand miles to Israel. It should not take more than a few months to move 750,000 Jews ten miles back to Israel where they belong. Then the tyranny will be over.

"No, the murderous centuries long obsessive hatred of Jews will prove to be "mankind's greatest mistake". stevenlmeyer"

The oldest claim of being hated I have found is by Josephus, Against Apion Bk 1 where he makes absurd claims about Jews and declares people won't believe them because people hate Jews. For example anyone who believes the Exodus narrative instead of his nonsense hates Jews.

In the Christian world the oldest recounting is found in Acts where we read the Jews attempted to exterminate the Christians. (Don't start a fight you can't finish?) The Christians did in fact treat Jews better than any other religion they encountered. Ask any worshiper of Zeus or Odin you happen to meet. And better than fellow Christians which any Albigensian will happily confirm. In an age of doctrinaire Christianity mere survival is evidence of the least worst treatment.

One can in fact read what Jews did write down through those centuries and find the original hatred found in Acts continued through the centuries and in some places and some sects down to the present day. I may not be nice but it is not one-sided and they did start it.

Despite attempts by Jews to exterminate Mohamed and his followers they eventually formed jewish armies and fought along side Muslims for centuries expanding the rule of Islam. In other words, Zionists are liars

Mr. Singer, I am aware it was your intention to shut down the exchange but I thought it necessary to correct your post as far as possible in this medium.

Beyond that you are trying to do a 1984. You are trying to rewrite history to the political advantage of Zionist thieves and murderers. I have seen literally dozens of creative "narratives" arguing in different ways to the preconceived conclusion that Zionists get everything in return for a few token concessions.

You presented clearly untrue statements. You deliberately used false designations such as referring to Transjordan at a date after it ceased to exist. You pretend colonial decisions are alive and enforceable while ignoring all legal and social changes since 1945 which have rendered them null and void. You invented a vote which never occurred. This is attempting to rewrite history.

History consists of events which have occurred. It is not a self-serving narrative. History is objective. Common beliefs about history are not real history. You are not free to rewrite it. Rational people will not let you get away with it.

David G, The_Iron_Webmaster

Here is my only response to the pair of you:

The Last Letter from Mordecai Anielewicz

Warsaw Ghetto Revolt Commander

(April 23, 1943)

>>It is impossible to put into words what we have been through. One thing is clear, what happened exceeded our boldest dreams. The Germans ran twice from the ghetto. One of our companies held out for 40 minutes and another – for more than 6 hours. The mine set in the "brushmakers" area exploded. Several of our companies attacked the dispersing Germans. Our losses in manpower are minimal. That is also an achievement. Y. [Yechiel] fell. He fell a hero, at the machine-gun. I feel that great things are happening and what we dared do is of great, enormous importance....

Beginning from today we shall shift over to the partisan tactic. Three battle companies will move out tonight, with two tasks: reconnaissance and obtaining arms. Do you remember, short-range weapons are of no use to us. We use such weapons only rarely. What we need urgently: grenades, rifles, machine-guns and explosives.

It is impossible to describe the conditions under which the Jews of the ghetto are now living. Only a few will be able to hold out. The remainder will die sooner or later. Their fate is decided. In almost all the hiding places in which thousands are concealing themselves it is not possible to light a candle for lack of air.

With the aid of our transmitter we heard the marvelous report on our fighting by the "Shavit" radio station. The fact that we are remembered beyond the ghetto walls encourages us in our struggle. Peace go with you, my friend! Perhaps we may still meet again! The dream of my life has risen to become fact. Self-defense in the ghetto will have been a reality. JEWISH ARMED RESISTANCE AND REVENGE ARE FACTS. I HAVE BEEN A WITNESS TO THE MAGNIFICENT, HEROIC FIGHTING OF JEWISH MEN IN BATTLE>>.

My name is Steven Meyer and I approve these words.

(I have capitalised the words Mordechai underlined in the original)

Dear Steven, I have seen a lot of footage during the last ten years of the IDF brutalizing, humiliating, assaulting and browbeating Palestinians as well as killing Palestinian kids, running people down with bulldozers, using Palestinians as human shields, destroying their homes and orchards, bombing them with phosphorous munitions, etc, etc.

Not once have I seen them doing anything that could be remotely construed as HEROIC! In fact they seem to be intent on perfecting the disgusting behavior of the Nazis or the Americans.

Could I suggest the IDF adopt a different role model! They might make some friends.

Cheers.

Dear Stevenlmeyer,

I have no understanding what it really means to be Jewish therefore the only truth I can speak here is my own reaction to your words.

In the past I would have seen them as a powerful message about the Jewish determination to survive in a hostile world and in one way that is exactly what they are.

But they are also a list of why you think I should 'look away'.

Millions will die from Israeli atomic weapons.

My petrol will get more expensive.

I will never get to see the Sphinx nor the pyramids.

It will be the greatest horror the world has ever seen.

THE MAGNIFICENT, HEROIC FIGHTING OF JEWISH MEN IN BATTLE.

But I can no longer look away from the activities of the Israeli Government or the likes of Mr Singer.

Just as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943 cost over 50,000 lives the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 was just as brutal especially the Wola Massacre. Over 10,000 civilians were slaughtered on just the first day and three hospitals were burnt to the ground with their patients still inside. The nurses were "whipped, gang-raped and finally hanged naked, together with the doctors... to the accompaniment of flute music".

However if the Polish government were engaged in a brutal, dehumanising occupation of a people and sending in their own citizens to settle through dispossession the land of that subjugated people I would have to put aside the heroics and sacrifices made by Polish people in Warsaw and condemn them too.

Do I think the Jewish people deserve special dispensation for what Christian persecution final led to? Yes.

Am I happy that the Palestinian people have had to bear that burden even though they were not directly involved in the atrocities? Not at all but I am reluctantly prepared to wear it to some degree because of the first point.

But the continued occupation is too much. the stalling of a fanciful peace through incendiary West Bank settlements is too much, threats to attack Iran are too much. Mr Singer is far too much.

Mr Steele, you said: "But the continued occupation is too much. the stalling of a fanciful peace through incendiary West Bank settlements is too much, threats to attack Iran are too much. Mr Singer is far too much."

I'm so glad you are no longer sitting on the fence regarding Israel.

Congratulations.

Steven, not much of an extermination when there was a ghetto in 1943. That said all was peaceful there, no deportations to Auschwitz, until the ghetto revolted.

It started with terror bombing and other lethal attacks on Germans. Sound familiar?

One of the favorites methods was a bomb or grenade in a baby carriage. When found abandoned and they looked inside they were dead. After they stopped inspecting abandoned carriages jewish women started pushing them becoming suicide bombers. The Germans thought they had the problem solved when they made women show infants at a distance. The women then started having their children in the carriages so they could murder their own children while suicide bombing.

It was at this point the Germans decided to clear out the ghetto after attributing such barbaric behavior to communist infiltrators which the communists later claimed to be correct.

If you are interested you can google up the complete set of onsite reports on the revolt. They are rather matter of fact military communiques showing no ideology or political taint although some characterizations are as biased as those of the Jews regarding the Palestinians. Neither side likes suicide bombers.

It is unclear what you expected to gain posting such transparent Stalinist propaganda piece. Is it really possible you are young enough not to recognize it as propaganda?

Oh wow,

David Singer, you've been arguing with a real live Holocaust denier!

See post by The_Iron_Webmaster, Sunday, 26 August 2012 2:47:22 PM.

I suggest you follow the example of Deborah Lipstadt and decline any further debate.

And then we have this gem from David G:

>>If there has been hatred of Jews over centuries then there must be some reason for this which must have something to do with Jews themselves.>>

(See Post by David G, Saturday, 25 August 2012 8:27:36 AM)

I'd still like to speak to you directly. Graham has my mobile number and I again give him my permission to pass it on to you. Alternatively he can give you my email address.

Dear David g,

You labelled me a fence sitter for pulling you up on your statement about Rupert Murdoch.

As I would do it again in a flash I'm more than happy to remain exactly where I am.

Steven, booby, How can one deny the mass execution of millions in cyanide gas chambers by simply reciting the known FACTS surrounding the Warsaw ghetto uprising?

Of course that was a rhetorical question. The answer is that anything does not assume every negative thing that happened to Jews in Europe since the Dark Ages is part of the holy holocaust. The rest of the answer is anything which does not support the image of the holy holocaust that Jews wish to present even though 100% factual is denial, i.e. declaring the truth to be denial.

Deborah Lipstadt who wrote a book entitled Mein Kampf (in German) declines debate because she's a religion teacher as a second rate state university who is supremely ignorant of the subject and is incapable of holding a debate much less getting the better of one. OTOH she might have deliberately chosen the book title as an ironical tribute to the propaganda value of both her's and Hitler's.

The only claim of interest is gas chamber executions and the absence of a single autopsy showing death by cyanide needs be noted.

And then the fact there are only five people who claimed to have observed death by cyanide -- as opposed to all the recovered memories of people who do not claim to have observed the deaths. When we review what they claim to have observed we discover two things. They are all mutually exclusive and none of them describe death by cyanide. Even the best forensic pathologist TV has to offer could do much with that. Even NCIS would be at a loss.

I could go on and talk about ALL the books published by claimed eye witnesses in the last thirty years have been exposed a frauds. Exposed immediately by skeptics of holocaustic claims and only after years of acclaim by Jews where those same Jews forced to finally admit con artists made fools of them. Who but a holohugger could believe a little girl traveling all of Europe protected and fed by a pack of wolves? Jews did. It was a holocaust miracle

Perhaps the most telling thing about the holy holocaust is the explosion of people in the 1980s who started remembering the holocaust in the 1980s using the same technique that allowed people to recall ritual, satanic child abuse and alien abductions and probings. It has come to be called false memory syndrome and is today so well understood it sort of gives a venue into creating a "real" Total Recall business.

Simply anyone can form fake memories of just about anything they want to "remember" and it does not take all that much time or effort. Why would people want to recall the "horrors" of the holy holocaust? They were engaging in the method in the first place. Obviously they wanted to remember. There is no limit to human fascination with morbid events.

Again skeptics discredited such claims from the beginning but to this day holohuggers still believe them. May the probings be with them.

Mr Steele, it can't be comfortable trying to walk both sides of the street or sitting on a fence.

Your sentence, which I used in my last comment, stands as a clear indictment of Israel.

Are you retracting what you said?

My goodness, didn't the Romans start something when they expelled the
Jews from the middle east ?

The Romans did not expel Jews from any place but Jerusalem despite the mythology of the Jews. All who left Judea did so voluntarily. In those days Jews meant only Judeans as per Josephus.

See, The Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand for what really happened. However it is old news. The book does nothing more than put it all in one place. Jewish Israelis have no problem with the book. Only non-Israeli Jews are upset with the truth being published.

Mr Singer's post raises some really serious issues for us non-Jews who are deeply concerned about the actions of Israel.

He wrote;

“"The use of pejorative terms and phrases like "tyranny", "Jewish dictatorship", "war criminal Jews" "Nazis" "Nuremberg", "Zionist nonsense" and "segregated squatter towns" identify you as a Jew-hater”

It is a fact that for many of us the use of the terms above do bring discomfort and most of us have been at pains to avoid them. I think given the horrors of the Holocaust this is an understandable reaction. There are numerous Jewish critics of the actions of the Israel toward the Palestinians who are not shy in evoking Nazi references but while they may well earn the title of 'self-hating Jew' from others of their community we on the outside seem to take the approach that as Jews they have that right. We see a similar sentiment when black Americans use the term 'n_gger' freely amongst themselves but are understandably intolerant of that label from others.

But I am of the growing opinion that we are doing a disservice to ourselves, to the Palestinian people, to the many diaspora and Israeli Jews who are so concerned about the actions of the Israeli government, and importantly to our own memories and reactions to the Holocaust if we forbid ourselves the language that has us labelled by the likes of Mr Singer as a Jew hater.

'Tyranny” is a perfectly appropriate word to describe the actions of Israel at the moment. “Jewish dictatorship” may well be more fraught for many of us but Mr Singer's all encompassing use of the word “Arabs” leaves him with little to complain about. Why shouldn't the use of phosphorus during Operation Cast Lead attract the words 'war criminals' or 'segregated squatter towns' be used to describe many Palestinian villages corralled and stripped of their farmland by growing illegal Jewish West Bank settlements? Indeed why shouldn't the West Bank wall evoke comparisons with the Warsaw Ghetto?

Cont...

Cont...

There were many wrongs committed through the Nazi years but one that has remained a burden for many of us particularly outside Europe was the almost universal lack of assistance given to those who were being persecuted and the lack of any real condemnation of the actions of the Nazis in the pre-war years, some brave Olympians not withstanding.

This is where I have zero time for efforts to de-legitimise the horrors that occurred. We should forever keep that history and those memories current. Further we should be eternally vigilant when others are seen to be engaging in precursor actions and be prepared without fear of favour of evoking that history to condemn brutality and oppression whoever the perpetrators. What better way of keeping it alive?

In the case of Israel many including myself may find the language unseemly, however in comparison to the unseemliness of the occupation there is no contest. We should not let the likes of Mr Singer strip us of certain language nor the powerful legacy of the the Holocaust as a tool for describing and denouncing tyranny.

Lastly we should reject as disgusting and totally self-serving Mr Singer's comment “not someone who is seriously concerned in trying to get any resolution of the conflict other than by ending the right of the Jewish people to self determination in their biblical and historic homeland.”. He wants the lot and would have us believe that by challenging this brutal and dehumanising occupation we are ending a 'right' of the Jewish people. What about the rights of the Palestinian people? Rights that were proclaimed in the very Mandate Mr Singer touts as giving Israel its legitimacy; “it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”.

Every time the repulsive Mr Singer posts his vile fabrications, we should remember there are Israelis with a conscience. To understand what Israel is doing, read Wikipedia on B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, to be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem
Also try this United nations report: http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_settler_violence_FactSheet_October_2011_english.pdf
In the words of former US President Jimmy Carter: "Some Israelis believe they have the right to confiscate and colonize Arab land and try to justify the sustained subjugation and persecution of increasingly hopeless and aggravated Palestinians". There we have David Singer in a nutshell.

To #csteele

You miss the point as usual.

Anyone is free to use whatever language he likes. If that identifies him as a Jew-hater - indeed even a Jew-exterminator - then I also have the right to condemn such person for his views and make it clear I do not intend to have any dialogue or communication with him. I find such vile and ugly views contemptible.

I am happy such racist views are exposed to public gaze. It is a pity that anyone making them does not have the guts to post his real name.

I have never denied that the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine were to be safeguarded. Indeed they have been by Israel.

BTW - you obviously have forgotten that I am still waiting for your response to eight questions I put to you.

Stop wimping it and post your answers. I expect better from a man of steele.

To #principles

Well at least you acknowledge that there are "good" Jews in Israel with a conscience as contrasted to repulsive ones like me who make vile fabrications (none of which you have chosen to elaborate).

I find you repulsive whilst you don't back up your claim.

I hope you noticed the following statements in the document issued by the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs to which you referred:

"In 2011, three Palestinians were killed and 183 injured by Israeli settlers. In addition, one Palestinian was killed, and 125 others injured, by Israeli soldiers during clashes between Israeli settlers and Palestinians.

Eight Israeli settlers were killed and 37 others injured by Palestinians in 2011, compared to five killed and 50 injured in 2010."

Loss of death and injury occasioned by both Jews and Arabs is to be regretted. Suffering and trauma is not restricted to one side alone.

Until a solution is negotiated nothing unfortunately is going to change.

Until you change your tack and detail your complaints about anything I have written that you claim is fabricated - I will not respond to you in future

"The use of pejorative terms and phrases like "tyranny", "Jewish dictatorship", "war criminal Jews" "Nazis" "Nuremberg", "Zionist nonsense" and "segregated squatter towns" identify you as a Jew-hater”

While the terms may be disliked they are factually accurate. The Zionists should not be cringing but be proud of their collaboration with the Nazis in the Transfer Agreement which broke the attempted economic boycott of Germany by the Jews. The quote to that effect is on the website of the author of the book by that name who is also Jewish and recognized by Jews as the authority on the subject.

As to their holy holocaust the fact that it is used to justify their treatment of non-Jews and to deflect criticism of that treatment shows it is no more than a good use for dead relatives. The "lessons" of the holocaust are not for Israel to learn, they are only for others to learn so they realize Jews can do no wrong.

Given the despicable usage of it, it is long since passed the time it should have been taken from from them as a weapon. Whatever it takes to do that is legitimate.

ONE: Mr. Singer, I would be the last to discourage you from giving me the opportunity to expound further. Jews are nothing but members of a religion, see Shlomo Sand The Invention of the Jewish People. Religions have no rights to much of anything but to practice within the limits of the law. Members of a religion have no rights to a country of their own as the US explained to the Mormons in 1838.

This is not the place to expose all the nonsense of the fanciful Old Testament which was first written in Greek and has about as much factual content as the Wizard of Oz. If interested you can read it all here http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html Suffice to say, religious superstition is worthless and makes the believers look like fools.

But there are consequences to believing superstition such as the inherent racism of the idea of a "jewish people" as well as a danger such as when the Nazis adopted it and no longer would mere conversion suffice.

As the terms I use are unquestionably correct you are declaring reciting the truth is the same as hate. The truth cannot be hate. There is no requirement to use call a military dictatorship an occupation just because it does not sound as bad.

And it serves to save words where an honest person has to declare it a criminal occupation. Izziehuggers love to argue the criminal aspect of it (ignorantly of course) but that the Palestinians did not elect to be ruled by the IDF makes it an obvious military dictatorship. The IDF embodies the highest jewish values and is the most moral army in the world therefore it is clearly a jewish military dictatorship. If you wish to debate the tyranny part I have dozens of haaretz and jpost articles as examples of tyranny

TWO: But you see I know better than to call Jews a race. There are Negroids and Mongoloids and Caucasoids among the races but not a Jewisoid in sight. The word race has a meaning. Jews are not a race, period. Therefore no matter what is said about the members of the Jewish religion it cannot be racism.

Condemning religions is old hat. It is almost part of the Republican Party Platform to condemn Islam. There is no particular reason not to condemn the primitive ritual/taboo genital mutilating religion of Judaism. (Reform is a minority not a save from the condemnation and still they mutilate the genitalia of infants.)

As to a negotiated solution, it is not to wait until the Palestinians give into all jewish demands. It is a matter of getting all the Jews back to Israel where they belong ASAP, one year max. A million Russians traveled thousands of miles to get to Israel in about six years. Moving 750,000 jewish war criminals ten miles back to Israel should not take more than a few months. So don't tell me it is hard.

Human rights and full self-determination are NOT a matter of negotiation but are inalienable rights and deadly force is appropriate to gains those rights, see US Declaration of Independence for details. The deprivation of human rights is tyranny, read up on the tyrant George III. See the Virginia state motto, Sic Semper Tryanni

The Iron Webmaster keeps spewing out his Jew hating bile under the cloak of anonymity. Who knows - eventually he might run out of what to say.

David Singer

I really do think you should follow Deborah Lipstadt's example and refrain from any sort of engagement with Holocaust deniers.

To stevenlmeyer

I thought I had already made that abundantly clear.

Mr Singer wrote;

“I have never denied that the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine were to be safeguarded. Indeed they have been by Israel.”

Absurd denialism abounds on both sides it seems.

Though there has been some small signs of improvement last month.

“JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel has unexpectedly eased restrictions on Palestinians looking to visit Jerusalem during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, saying improved security meant it could let in thousands more from the occupied West Bank.”

“Israeli officials said on Wednesday they had lowered the age limit for men wanting to visit al-Aqsa mosque in the old city to 40 from 50 and had also handed out seven times more permits to Palestinians between the ages of 35 and 40.”

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-flock-jerusalem-israeli-restrictions-eased-152403694.html

To #csteele

Pity you failed to set out response of Hamas and Palestinian Authority as appears from the following:

"For many years, the Palestinians had been complaining about Israeli restrictions that ban them from entering Israel, but during the holy month of Ramadan, in an unprecedented move, the Israeli authorities granted permits to tens of thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank to visit Israel during the Muslim feast of Idul Fitri.

Hundreds of thousands of Muslims from the West Bank have been entering Jerusalem for Friday prayers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque without permits.

Many Palestinians, particularly shopkeepers in the city, welcomed the Israeli move, noting that it boosted the local economy. Then, in a move that angered Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and other Palestinians, the Israeli authorities went a step farther by allowing tens of thousands of West Bank Palestinians to enter the rest of Israel.

For the first time in many years, in scenes reminiscent of the good old days before the peace process when Palestinians were able to enter Israel freely, the beaches of Tel Aviv and Jaffa were full of Palestinian Muslims who also converged on shopping malls and water parks in different parts of the country.

But the scenes of Palestinians enjoying themselves on Israeli beaches and shopping in Israeli malls have angered Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas also fears that the easing of restrictions may have a moderating effect on Palestinians at a time when the Islamist movement is working hard to recruit more followers, especially in the West Bank.

Hamas does not want to see Palestinians happy and enjoying themselves, especially not in Israel. Hamas would prefer to see Palestinians live in misery and poverty so that it could find fertile soil for recruiting terrorists.

The Palestinian Authority, for its part, is now accusing Israel of seeking to damage the Palestinian economy by opening its doors to Palestinian vacationers and shoppers. Some Palestinian officials in Ramallah are even talking about an Israeli “conspiracy” to undermine the Palestinian Authority."

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/why-hamas-would-rather-see-palestinians-suffering-than-enjoying-the-good-life-in-israel/541335