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The Forum > Article Comments > Brave and principled Ecuador: protection of an Australian citizen > Comments

Brave and principled Ecuador: protection of an Australian citizen : Comments

By Stuart Rees, published 20/8/2012

Will Australia find the courage to insist that the human rights of vulnerable people should override the potentially bullying power of large governments.

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The most succinct reply to this article is "bollocks"

Ecuador is known for jailing reporters and editors for articles adverse to the government. This is a publicity stunt to take the limelight off its own freedom of speech violations.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 20 August 2012 8:00:34 AM
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Indeed, Shadow.

Get him to Sweden and to trail.
Posted by Cheryl, Monday, 20 August 2012 9:07:20 AM
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Stuart Rees must be writing about a different Ecuador to the one I am aware of. The ecuador I know has been criticised by numerous people and organisations for its suppression of the press and political interference in the judiciary.

Human Rights Watch has this to say "Ecuador’s laws restrict freedom of expression, and government officials, including Correa, use these laws against his critics. Those involved in protests marred by violence may be prosecuted on inflated and inappropriate ‘terrorism’ charges."

http://www.hrw.org/americas/ecuador

One example of Correa's principles http://www.wpfc.org/?q=node/475
Posted by Agronomist, Monday, 20 August 2012 9:14:27 AM
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We had the same "conversation" years ago over Davis Hicks.

I see the hand of the same of the same trolls, who use the same stencil for everything.

BORING!

....gotta go now. My morning bowel movement can't be stilled.
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Monday, 20 August 2012 9:35:31 AM
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...I am not sure where I stand on the issue of Julian Assange, there are obviously many levels of contention on this issue, which swings the mind left and right of the centre line of justice.

...Right at this moment, the criticism by the West of Ecuador and its alleged attack on freedom speech, leaves me feeling “nonplussed”. This criticism must be viewed in the light of the negative effects of interventionist policies of the USA in South America over many years.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:11:53 AM
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As the U.S. and its craven acolytes pull the net tighter and tighter around Assange, there are those who applaud or feign indifference.

It is obvious to me that Australia is being sucked further and further into the Imperial American Net, in part because our politicians on bother sides are bum-kissers, and in part because most Australians know nothing about world affairs and couldn't care less anyway!

What the Assange affair shows is that the U.S. does whatever it wants to whoever it wants and that its minions, of which Australia is one, will give it every assistance even if it means breaking its own laws (like Embassy sovereignty).

How long will it be before the Australian Government heeds American requests and arrests and imprisons those who speak out against American hegemony and warmongering and condemn it?

Wake up, Australia. Your freedoms are vanishing.
Posted by David G, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:16:17 AM
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Thanks Prof Rees, at last some reasoned comment in Australia on the Assange affair but you are all too gentle on the Australian government. It may not be that - strictly speaking - Senator Carr lied to the parliament (which under our form of democracy is a resigning offence - remember Profumo?) and the Australian public but it is clear he knew much more than he was divulging and misled us. If he has any honour, he should resign.

Gavin Mooney
Posted by guy, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:47:02 AM
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I applaud Ecuador for offering assistance to an Australian citizen due to the failure of the Skip government to fulfil its statutory obligations.

Assange apparently had to quickly find a sympathetic country that would be unlikely to kow-tow to the yankee bully boy, probably on advice from his rather smart team of advisers. I am happy to treat Ecuador's human-rights record separately in this situation, as the main focus for here is Assange.

As to the threat by the POMS to invade the Ecuadorian embassy to get at Assange, on one level that could have been useful as a precedent in future situations of 'sanctuary' involving all, even yankee and pommy embassies.

The real losers here are the Australians; we can see our politicians lying to us as well as our diplomats abandoning us, and we the masses are to indifferent to doing anything about same.
Posted by deadly, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:59:49 AM
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http://justice4assange.com/Declaration-of-Abandonment.html
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:17:13 AM
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Nothing to add here except to say, do the crime do the time; and, vigorously/robustly agree, with both Shadow Minister and Cheryl!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:35:06 AM
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The excellent Four Corners TV investigation into Julian Assange's time in Sweden revealed what would be high comedy if his freedom, and freedom of publication, were not involved. It seems that the most he could be charged with would be having sex with a couple of willing partners without using a condom. I for one had not known that this was a chargeable offence.

Jokes aside, this sorry business shows the lengths to which some organizations will go to punish whistle-blowers.
Posted by Noelreg, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:51:47 AM
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My impression of Assange as portrayed by the media is that of a ‘spoilt brat.’ It is clear that the Swedish authorities intend to question him over serious allegations of sexual misconduct (almost certainly rape). This is a heinous non-political crime though out the civilised world. The Swedish demand for extradition has been supported by the British legal system. As far as fair play and justice go it is hard to beat the British system, a system based on common law that we have inherited.

What of the political background to Assange and Wikileak. It is still by no means certain that the USA has prepared charges and that these will prove to be serious enough to meet the extradition treaty agreements between the USA, UK, Sweden or Australian. A possible Assange extradition procedure to the USA has not been tested anywhere. In fact this at present is a hypothetical situation, while the Swedish case is a legal reality. Further the difficulties of his case are compounded by his jumping bail.

I do not blame America for being very angry with Assange for receiving stolen property. Clearly convention allows journalists to publish such leaked (stolen information) without fear of persecution. In this regard, there are probably no legal criteria for irresponsible publication that endangers lives or stresses delicate international relationships.

It is for America alone to decide if their laws have been broken and that the potential crime is serious enough to warrant extradition. Clearly there are many obstacles to jump before –or even if- Assange is tried by a USA court. I can only say that if he is found guilty by a US court then he will have to pay the tariff.
Posted by anti-green, Monday, 20 August 2012 1:21:43 PM
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend would sum up our trusty professors little rant. Highlights much of what's wrong in our higher education sector as well.

Any one who thinks Assanges motive for publishing this pile of rubbish is altruistic has rocks in their head. His behaviour all through this sorry saga should tell you he is interested in No1 first, foremost & only.

As far those who think the US want to prosecute him, they must be fools. All the yanks want is him, & the bit of bumph he "exposed", to disappear & be forgotten. The last thing they would want to do is give him a platform for more grandstanding, where he can attract all the US haters to him.

I reckon they would be happy to buy him a nice little potato farm in Ecuador, where he could grow fat, having unprotected sex to his hearts content.

I wonder why this means it is only the far left, & academia that support the smarty.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 20 August 2012 2:19:25 PM
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deadly, why should only those you agree with have their human rights protected? What about the journalists of Ecuador who have been threatened with jail and fined millions of dollars for the offence of criticising the President of Ecuador and his brother? Are they not worthy?

This was my complaint about this silly article. The author carrying on about how brave and principled the President of Ecuador was, without a hint of irony. The President of Ecuador has consistently cracked down on media organisations and journalists who criticise him or his brother, closing down media outlets and suing journalists. Any mention of his bother’s shady business dealings with the government is ruthlessly crushed. He has changed the constitution to allow himself an extended period in office. These are clearly not the actions of a brave and principled leader. Yet his nearly useless offer of asylum to Assange is lauded as a defender of human rights. Shadow Minister is correct. It is bollocks.

anti-green, it is not for America alone to decide about extradition. The country receiving the extradition request also has a say. They should assess the request based on whether the request is proper, legal and constitutes a crime in both countries. It may be difficult for the US to come up with a set of charges that would meet these criteria in Sweden.
Posted by Agronomist, Monday, 20 August 2012 2:37:19 PM
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All those pro-American stooges, neo-liberals all of them, can go on about "....the journalists of Ecuador who have been threatened with jail and fined millions of dollars for the offence of criticising the President of Ecuador and his brother ..." or about Pussy Riot getting jailed for years for insulting Putin, but they don't protest about the US harassing Assange, do they ?

Um .... when the US gets around to it. But they're such b@stards that they are bound to, sooner or later. And probably once he is in Sweden, that well-known US puppet state. And that will prove that yes, they are b@stards.

Nyah. They probably voted for Howard.

Look, he's one of ours, he can r00t who he likes, how he likes, when he likes. And anyway, from all those Swedish movies, it's obvious that they're all gagging for it. Anyway he's earned it, sticking it up the Yanks like that.

Yeah, right.

Seriously, I also hope that he can find asylum in Ecuador. For ever. For the rest of his life. Yes, a potato farm would do. I just hope that they watch over their women in Ecuadorian potato-farming areas.

Now, back to more serious matters ....
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 20 August 2012 3:02:36 PM
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“refused to give assurances about Assange's safety.”

What do you mean by that, Stuart?

There has been no threat to Assange’s safety.

Do you mean a threat that he may have to face the consequences of illegal actions?

On what basis should Assange have immunity from prosecution for criminal actions?

We will never see the basis upon which he has pulled off this deal for immunity with Ecuador. We will see only the mendacious spin of the Ecuadorians concealing the true motivation for the granting of this unwarranted interference, which will encourage "useful idiots" to back Assange.

What confused bias would enable anyone to view Ecuador as “brave and principled”?

Perhaps someone with a mindset which enables them to defend lies in Australian history.
Posted by Leo Lane, Monday, 20 August 2012 3:15:26 PM
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The tone and dismissive content of most of these comments fills me with despair.

An Australian exposes America as an Evil Empire and Australian citizens pour excrement all over him.

I can only think that the Americanization of Australians is almost complete, that we have lost our identity in the flood of U.S. indoctrination shown on television and demonstrated in our Parliament.

What happened to our Aussie spirit, the idea of the fair go, the pride we used to have in ourselves? We might as well become another American State, forget about individuality and become as brain-dead and greedy and power-crazed as most Americans are.

I can understand why Assange went to Ecuador rather than come back here.
Posted by David G, Monday, 20 August 2012 4:04:35 PM
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Hi David,

Well, he hasn't actually got there yet :)

Mind you, if I were the British govt, or the Australian, or even the Swedish, i would close my eyes to his 'escaping' from the Ecuadorian Embassy to the airport and thence to some backwoods, potato-growing region of Ecuador, for life. That way, he would forever be subject to extradition from whatever country Britain or Sweden has the appropriate treaties with. As long as he had a ready supply of useful virgins, I guess.

On the other hand, if he is innocent of rape, he could risk going to Sweden and copping whatever its justice system deals out. After all, if the Yanks are ever going to lay charges before a British court of whatever Assange's supporters think he is guilty of, then why haven't they done so already ?

And surely the legal situation would be that, no matter what the verdict in Sweden, he would have to be brought back to Britain or to some other country of his choice, from which the US would have to initiate proceedings against him ? And surely any decent lawyer would know that, one who wasn't playing to the gallery of fools ?

And isn't there something obscene, or maybe even proto-fascist, about Chavez trying to whip up populist anger against the British and the US for something they haven't actually done yet ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 20 August 2012 4:22:54 PM
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Rhrosty, Assange has committed no crime in either Australia or the USA. Nor has he been charged by Sweden.
David, I too am filled with despair by the dismissive content of most of these comments. The unquestioning faith in the USA by most Australians is unfounded. Sensible people would fear a country that has military bases in over 150 countries, and waged constant war for well over a century in support of its economic interests. America worship is now a religion and that's why any criticism is seen as blasphemy, because it questions their beliefs. The world is going down the gurgler, and governments are rightly terrified of the USA, foolishly hoping that when the crunch of climate change begins to bite, they will help us invade other countries to feed ourselves.
Australia has never been the land of the fair go, it has always been narrow-minded, bigoted, prone to priggish censorship, racist, sexist, homophobic. Just as countries that have the word Democratic in their name are certain to be dictatorships, so countries that are always telling the world how fair and easy-going they are, are not. Remember 'British fair play'? the catch cry of one of the most vile and warlike, repressive colonial powers the world has seen - until their bastard child, the USA took over?
Of course Assange went to Ecuador rather than come back here... our inglorious PM's first speech declared her unquestioning servitude to both the USA and Israel.
, Joe, the bloke hasn't been charged with any crime anywhere. The yanks refuse to say they don't want him. USA senators and congressmen have demanded he be shot. The USA has put out a red alert with interpol for him... something only reserved for the worst terrorists... they didn't put one out for Ghadaffi or any other political wanted person. Doesn't it worry you that Bradley Manning is being tortured as I write, held naked without charge in solitary confinement and becoming insane simply because they think he gave info about USA atrocities to Assange? Don't you care if your government is decent?
Posted by ybgirp, Monday, 20 August 2012 9:03:06 PM
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Hi prigby,

I'm glad you mentioned Bradley Manning - he seems to be copping far more that Assange, but I guess for every work-horse, there seems to be a show-pony. And so far, the Yanks haven't suggested that they will be laying any charges on the show-pony, only the work-horse.

So the question seems to be: did Bradley Manning, by copying sensitive documents and sending them to Wikileaks, break any laws ?

Gosh, I wonder how that question would go down in Russia or China or pretty much any country on earth - has someone broken the law by sending sensitive national documents to all and sundry ? And did any of those hundreds of thousands of documents spread around by Wikileaks impact on anybody's life or safety ?

I do recall getting furious, or at least contemptuous, with Cheney (or was it Rumsfeld?) for exposing one of his own CIA agents, Valerie Plume, because her husband hadn't played ball over some BS story about uranium from - Africa ! - that they needed as an excuse to invade Iraq. That was vicious, but if anybody was similarly affected by Wikileaks, then it could be that Manning has in fact broken laws, like them or not, and that may be just as vicious.

Are there US laws in place, and did Manning break them, or not ? Yes ? No ? So move on: if someone plays that game, hero they may be, but they take the consequences.

If Assange needs any start-up capital for his Ecuadorean potato patch, money for spades or forks, or a wheelbarrow, I'd be happy to chip in. But in my experience, show-ponies don't transform themselves into workers, work-horses, not while there is still some posturing to be done :)

I guess to be a martyr, one needs a persecutor - and so far, the Yanks aren't playing ball. I wonder if the dreadful thought has crossed Assange's mind yet: what if the Yanks never lay a charge on me ? Poof ! Martyrdom evaporates !

No,not while there are usuful idiots around.

Cheers

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 20 August 2012 9:44:17 PM
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As I understand it, Assange may be guilty of rape/sexual assault, under Swedish law!
And Assange does seem to be going to quite strenuous efforts to avoid going there and facing their legal scrutiny, or justice system.
Not the actions of a truly innocent man surely; or, even something that just vaguely resembles a man?
I like others, hope he does make it to Ecuador, to eke out his miserable life as a criminal on the run; and or, become accustomed to their version of free speech/Journalistic licence.
He will need to very quickly develop respect for the form of allowed Journalism and freedom of speech in Ecuador! His life and future freedom of movement could depend on it.
Listening to his blame-shifting excuse making mother on air, leads one to believe? Just where he learned his total disrespect for the rights of others, and the law?
A true Journalist never reveals sources, or publishes and be dammed, but first validates the information, then establishes as far as it is possible, if any lives will be placed in jeopardy with publication. His source, Bradley Manning, rots in jail!
Yes it was righteous to expose war crimes, but "enfant terrible" to simply list and or race to publish, anti-terrorist resources; or place real people's real lives, in very real danger!
If it were entirely up to me, I would let him go, God speed to Ecuador. But, let him know that he will have to face all the crimes he has already committed, bail jumping for starters, if he ever leaves!
There are worse things than prison or the death penalty? Eternal exile, may be one of them?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:45:11 PM
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Rhosty,

"Not the actions of a truly innocent man; or, even something that resembles a man."

That makes me laugh. As if any of the usual suspects on this forum casting stones his way could ever hope for an ounce of his fortitude and dedication to his cause. Stitched up by Sweden and abandoned by Australia, and still he holds his ground - more power to him!

(btw, I believe it was Manning himself who blabbed and was dobbed in by his confidant - not Assange!)
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:59:09 PM
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Yes, Poirot, it was Manning himself, Assange has never dobbed anyone in.
Joe, You quote Russia and China... Yes, like so many other countries their justice system is unjust, their human rights record abominable... the point is, they do not bray to the world that they are the saviours of freedom, peace and democracy. They don't claim to succour the weak and infirm, to uphold decency, justice, mercy and all the rest of the self-serving USA propaganda about themselves that so many people believe. the truth is it is waging war everywhere in its own interests, is kidnapping suspects and torturing them in various other countries, it refuses to clean up the land mines it sprayed everywhere in Laos so that every day some kid or adult dies or loses a limb... After spraying depleted uranium all over Iraq they deny responsibility for the consequences... they... ah, their atrocities are too great to list, and our press and governments too fearful to admit them. We're the abject objects of USA aggression, living in fear of retaliation if we step out of line.
Posted by ybgirp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 8:18:17 AM
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Poirot S.M.,

Your Honor, perhaps you could give us some explanation for your acquittal of the prisoner, with respect. You have declared him 'not guilty' by virtue of the machinations of the Swedish legal system in trying to frame him, stitch him up, which - implied in your decision - by pressing ahead with legal proceedings, demonstrate that Sweden is a lickspittle of Washington, and has absolutely no backbone or credibility of its own.

And a major part of your reasoning in this case is that all Swedish women are sluts, is that correct ? Prostitutes, willing to sell their client to the highest bidder ?

In Sweden, it appears, to force a woman to have sex without a condom is an offence. Feminists would be .... I was going to write 'horrified' at this injustice to Assange but I realised that real feminists used to think there was something wrong with forcing a woman to have sex without a condom. Back in the days ....

In Sweden, it appears, to have sex with a woman while she is asleep, and not to desist when she asks, is an offence. Feminists would be .... I was going to write 'horrified' at this injustice to Assange but I realised that real feminists used to think there was something wrong with having sex with a woman while she was asleep, and not stopping once she woke up and asked the scumbag to stop. Back in the days ....

So now the truly progressive position is that you can't trust what any woman says, they are all willing to be used to 'stitch up' a 'real man' like Assange ?

With respect, Your Honor, isn't that what would have been called 'opportunism' in the old days ? When the Left had some integrity ?

I rest my case, Your Honor.

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 8:26:27 AM
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Pathetic.

Why haven't the Swedish authorities taken up the invitation to travel to the UK to question him? They do that sort of thing all the time when they're not dealing with an accused of the stature of Assange.

Why have the Brits threatened to remove Ecuador's embassy status to get to a bloke "accused" of having sex without a condom?

Do you consider that a reasonable response in proportion to his alleged crime?

Most Western countries are lick-spittles of Washington - or more aptly, little wagonettes on the hegemonic bandwagon.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 8:46:20 AM
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Mmmm... I love this, Poirot: '...little wagonettes on the hegemonic bandwagon.'
Posted by ybgirp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 9:01:50 AM
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Thank you, ybirp...it has a certain ring to it.

Here's a heart-warming tale of Sweden's penchant to tow the US line:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR42/001/2006/en/97edf527-d3d2-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/eur420012006en.pdf
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 9:13:06 AM
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Argh! Thank you, Poirot... I think. Do you subscribe ICH [Information Clearing House] where there's a mind-boggling array of 'other news' that you'll never see or hear on our bulletins? It's free, and essential reading if you want to remain thoroughly disillusioned at the way humans govern themselves.
Posted by ybgirp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 10:34:56 AM
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Ybgirp, your arrival on this forum is welcome.

It's great to see another thinker joining in rather than the main crowd who do little more than regurgitate their indoctrination and attack folk who try to encourage them to think outside the narrow confines of their bony boxes!
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:37:49 AM
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The Swedes could travel to Britain to question Assange! He would deny everything except, that he had consensual sex with two women?
The women would deny that was in fact true?
If the burden of proof supported the evidence of the women, and his self evident reluctance to face the music, a Swedish court could still try him and likely penalise Assange, with a probable prison sentence?
He could possibly serve his time in a British prison?
He would have to exit the Ecuadorian embassy and surrender to the British authorities! But would he?
I'd bet my house on never ever!
Having gone to so much trouble to avoid his day in a Swedish court, and expressed so much patent self-serving mendacious verisimilitude, with regard to his actual reasons?
He would hardly be likely to ever honour a Swedish Court's adverse findings?
And then there is the crime of the bail jumping and the huge cost, [hundreds of thousands,] now imposed on former supporters.
He would also be honour bound to somehow repay that amount!
[Honour bound? Assange? Ha, ha, ho, ho, he, he, gasp, choke, mercy; oh my aching ribs!]
Sure, the Swedes could question him by video link, but would that actually resolve anything, or cause Assange to act, possibly for the very first time, like a truly empathetic, responsible and honourable MAN?
Grant him safe passage to Ecuador, if he but signs a legally binding enduring document, he will remain there for the term of his natural life, among birds of a feather!
One also notes, even after the huge publicity regarding his intended public speech, his entire remaining support group, turned out in their dozens!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 12:24:54 PM
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Thanks Poirot, for the link to the Amnesty report on the Swedish idea of justice. It is depressing to see the number of people who see the Ecuadorian government's role as so important; any half decent country, even Australia, should offer Assange asylum.We may have to find some more politicians with some moral character though. I suggest reading his bio. on Wikipaedia. Australian of the Year in my estimate.
Posted by Noelreg, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 1:39:00 PM
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Hi Noelreg,

" .... Australia, should offer Assange asylum."

Yeah, maybe you're onto something. All Swedish women are sluts, even those working for Wikileaks. The Swedish government is a puppet of the Obama fascist government. Julia should boost her standing in the Australian community, and amongst genuine Australian feminists, by demanding that our Julian be left alone, to r00who he likes, go where he likes, and do what he likes. He's one of ours, after all.

So let's see - the story so far:

1. Wikileaks has hacked into and then released a vast amount of secret documents from various US agencies, thanks to Bradley Manning, or so it is alleged.

2. Roughly contemporaneously, Julian Assange has r00ted a couple of Swedish birds, one against her wishes to use a condom, and one while she was asleep. Hey, a really Aussie hero !

3. The puppet Swedish government has acted on the complaints of these two birds, or sluts if you like, and quite unreasonably launched legal proceedings against one of ours, our Julian.

4. For incredibly noble reasons, our Julian has fled to the Ecuadorian Embassy, blowing his friends' bail assurances and pitting the British and Swedish governments, for no particularly good reason, against the Ecuadorian government for a long time to come, and by extension most South American populist pseudo-leftist governments.

5. The US has not initiated any legal proceedings against our Julian, either in Britain, that lickspittle, or in Sweden, that other lickspittle.

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 4:31:15 PM
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[continued]

6. A miracle happens, and our Julian arrives in Ecuador, to begin life as a potato farmer, and a potato farmer who is incredibly careful never to criticise the incredibly progressive and democratic government of Ecuador, particularly that of President Correa and/or any of his heirs and successors.

7. The evil US Obama fascist government tries Bradley Manning, for the small matter of copying hundreds of thousands of sensitive documents - a small offence in anybody's progressive eyes - and passing them on to Wikileaks. The evil fascist US government then issues a permanent warrant for the unjustified persecution of our Julian in every corner of the globe.

I suspect that he is going to wish that he had gone to Sweden, done his time for rape and/or sexual assault of his Wikileaks colleagues (perhaps erstwhile colleagues ?), gone to some third country without any extradition device with the US, and then got on with his life as a common-or-garden sleaze-bag, r00ting pseudo-left women at will.

Have I got anything wrong ?

cheers,

Joe

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 4:42:27 PM
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"The evil fascist US government..."

At least you got that right, Joe!

Cheers!
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 5:11:20 PM
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How might this work, David ?

Suppose the Ecuadorian government offers our Julian citizenship, and then:

- gains an undertaking from the Swedish government that if he goes to Sweden to answer the charges from his erstwhile Wikileak colleagues, the Swedes will not allow any extradition directly from Sweden to the US (if the US ever applies for it while he is there, that is).

So our Champion R00ter goes to Sweden, is found guilty of rape, does his time, and comes back to his beloved homeland of Ecuador, to take up his long-cherished profession of potato-farmer ?

Sounds good to me: all his Aussie groupies could fly across to Quito, wave all the right flags, and get bonked to their hearts' content. There you go, Poirot :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 5:45:37 PM
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I feel extremely sorry for Manning. Whatever the rights or wrongs of what he did, he acted on his conscience. He has mental issues, and as others have observed, those who selected him for this position, bear much responsibility.

No one can doubt Assange's intelligence – his publicity, his top legal team, and his available money have kept him in the public eye. He is lionised by thousands; thousands hang on every word.

What about Manning? Why hasn't Assange generated as much publicity for Manning? Even Assange's supporters must feel his is a moral obligation to do whatever he can for this man – a man who faced the death penalty.

Perhaps massive publicity would have made no difference for Manning. People also argue that Assange's publicity will ultimately make no difference for him.

Manning seems to be but a 'footnote' to Assange's glory.
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 23 August 2012 1:42:39 AM
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Oh, there you are, loud mouth...I hadn't realised you were still indulging your penchant for fictional narrative.

I say, you seem somewhat fixated on the r00ting and bonking aspects of this story - conveniently dismissing the central theme.

Strange, how you bang on ad nauseam about free and open speech when it suits you.....but of course it's easy to jump on a forum and employ such tactics to make your points.

Much more difficult to stand up for those freedoms in the real world, especially when you're up against the hegemons.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 23 August 2012 3:38:50 PM
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Hi Poirot,

Yeah, you might be right, a certain envy creeps in. How does he DO it ?

But my fixation with the "the r00ting and bonking aspects of this story" might have something to do with the fact that they are fairly central to this story. Just ask your erstwhile sisters: if their alleged rape hadn't occurred, our Julian wouldn't be strutting his stuff on a first-floor balcony in the interests of free speech. He would be doing it out in the open, maybe in Trafalgar Square, or back here in the Dom.

But one thing about being a revolutionary is that if you do the crime, you have to be prepared to do the time. Yes, I know, Marx pissed off to London, Lenin shot through to Switzerland, etc., but the principle should be that - in the interests of the people - if you want to do something heroic, like our Julian, you have to be prepared to take the consequences.

In our Boy's case, that may well mean confronting the quite legitimate grievances of the hegemon, the Evil Empire. Frankly, if someone hacked into the international communications of ANY nation on Earth, they could dig up God knows what, and commit God knows what crimes in the process.

I know it's good fun shoving a stick up Uncle Sam's @rse but think about it, for once: how many dissidents from various regimes around the world have now been exposed ? I mean decent, brave people, on our side, yours and mine, Poirot, who might have had their names taken down for future reference by some minor US hack.

Maybe the courage of a revolutionary is measured by her or his preparedness to take the consequences for their revolutionary acts. Hey, maybe that's how our Julian saw his heroic r00ting of a couple of puppet Sweden's sluts - oh, sorry, they were Wikileaks volunteers, a couple of ours. Ours.

If you ever go to Ecuador, Poirot, take plenty of condoms. And stay awake, whatever you do. And sober, I suspect, with the light on.

Cheers,

Joe

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 4:19:54 PM
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"...maybe that's how our Julian saw his heroic r00ting of a couple of puppet Sweden's sluts..."

Dear oh dear, some blokes just can't handle it when other blokes make a mark on the world.....envious much!

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 23 August 2012 5:40:59 PM
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Hi Poirot,

Wikileaks volunteers. People on our side, yours and mine, Poirot, women doing their bit for free speech. Sisters who were allegedly taken advantage of.

Who are the heroes in this case ? Bradley Manning ? These two sisters ? Or a show-pony ?

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 6:39:47 PM
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Joe, tomorrow, go down to the supermarket and buy yourself a large Swede. Bore two holes in it of suitable size and have your way with it multiple times.

Then, in a more relaxed frame of mind, think about the real issues concerning Julian for whom you seem to have an irrational hatred.

He showed to the world the evil of the U.S. using their own documents knowing he would be relentlessly pursued by them. That took courage.

Joe, when you do something equivalent to Julian then you can legitimately offer some criticism.

Cheers!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 23 August 2012 7:14:44 PM
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Hi David,

So those women are nothing much more than vegetables, is that it ?

No, I don't have any hatred for Assange.

Only contempt.

Cheers,

Joe :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 7:20:05 PM
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“Brave and Principled Ecuador”

I think not.

Reporters without Borders
http://en.rsf.org/ecuador-weekly-unable-to-publish-after-06-08-2012,43167.html
http://en.rsf.org/ecuador-presidential-attacks-on-17-07-2012,43046.html
http://en.rsf.org/equateur-four-radio-broadcasters-and-two-tv-13-06-2012,42788.html

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/americas/ecuador

Why did Assange pick Ecuador, the antithesis for which he claims to stand?
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 23 August 2012 7:53:20 PM
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Lukashenko Barankov, a young whistleblower from Belarus, set up a blog denouncing abuses and corruption under the repressive regime of Belarus dictator, Aleksandr Lukashenko

Branankov visited Ecuador in June, was immediately arrested, imprisoned in Quito, and is facing extradition. On being sent home he faces torture and the death penalty.

Even Luke Harding, an Assange supporter, states that “it would be nice to think that Assange will speak up for Barankov during his next balcony speech.”

Luke Harding, senior international correspondent for the Guardian, writing for the New Statesman http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/08/lets-not-confuse-activities-wikileaks-those-assange

Increasingly Assange's strongest supporters, those principled and with conscience, are increasingly finding Assange has feet of clay, and perhaps not what he promotes himself to be.
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 23 August 2012 9:11:16 PM
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Notwithstanding that it's difficult for some people not to blithely fall into line with prescribed media-think on Assange, this article lays the pros and cons out fairly well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/22/julian-assange-media-contempt

and this on the US army's perceived threat from Wikileaks
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/us/18wiki.html?_r=1

Danielle,

While you're exposing the wrongs in Ecuador, perhaps you'd like to extend your research talents to enlightening us on the atrocities exposed by Wikileaks concerning the US and its conduct in Iraq.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 August 2012 8:55:59 AM
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G'day Poirot,

No, it is possible to have contempt for a scumbag show-pony like Assange without being in the pocket of Wall Street.

Thanks for that Guardian URL, by the way: it had this article -

"Galloway wades into Assange row -

Respect MP criticised by anti-rape campaigners after claiming having sex with a woman when she is asleep is not rape .... "

Would you be prepared to support Galloway, and indirectly, allegedly, Assange ?

Perhaps Galloway and that Tea Party nut-case could get together - with Assange - and declare that not only women like being r00ted while they are sleeping but they can't get pregnant from it either.

Back when you were a feminist, what would have been your position on this sort of garbage ?

Christ, how far the pseudo-Left have fallen. No wonder Galloway sucks up to Muslim extremists: all male chauvinists together.

Or is male chauvinism progressive these days ? Gosh, I'm so old-fashioned, I just can't keep up :(

Or maybe it just shows how far we still have to go for that frail orphan, abandoned by Left and right: genuine gender equality.

Cheers,

Joe

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 24 August 2012 5:42:12 PM
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Dear Poirot,

"...perhaps you'd like to extend your research talents to enlightening us on the atrocities exposed by Wikileaks concerning the US and its conduct in Iraq."

I was not surprised at any of the revelations from Wikileaks. I found nothing earth-shatteringly unexpected.

Many were outraged at the sight of a group of men, one of whom was carrying a weapon, being shot down. Am I right?

If there had been someone on the ground immediately afterwards, who unequivocally identified these men as insurgents, would there have have been such an outcry?

During the Malay Emergency the British would have done the same. A person carrying a weapon in company of a group of other men would have been seen to be possible terrorists.

In combat zones such groups are highly suspicious (correctly so) and there is invariably no second-guessing.

Traditionally, all combatants wore uniforms to distinguish themselves from civilians. Not today. This creates a different mind set ...

Incidentally, during the Emergency, suspected terrorist nests were bombed/attacked. Were terrorists killed ...? But certainly innocent civilians would have been.

It seems to be more palatable to see carnage hidden under bricks and mortar than human beings killed in the open. But ultimately it is the same.

None deny that war is bloody awful
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 24 August 2012 7:28:16 PM
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loudmouth,

If the British and Swedish authorities really wanted to get to the bottom of the allegations, and "question" Assange, it is in their power to do so. The Swedish authorities could take up Assange's repeated offer to question him in London - or they could give him an iron-clad guarantee that he will not be extradited to the US.

And you're not interested in getting to the bottom of it anymore than they appear to be. It's clear you much prefer to persist with your pipsqueakery and cutting-edge commentary - an attempt to see how many times you can insert the terms "r00ted" or "r00ting" into one thread?

(I don't find your creative rhetoric all that clever, which is a shame because you obviously put a lot of effort into it)

Cheers

Danielle,

http://www.salon.com/2010/12/24/wikileaks_23/
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 August 2012 8:22:09 PM
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Thank you Poirot, but the world doesn't dance to the music of Assange - the other option is that he submits to extradition to Sweden, faces the music, does his time, and then either comes back to Britain or goes whither he wishes.

And then, IF the Evil Empire initiates legal proceedings against him, somewhere down the track, he has to deal with them, sans balcony.

No rush. It might end up being easier, and quicker, just becoming a potato-farmer in Ecuador.

I guess it's not easy being a show-pony. It just breaks my heart. Still, as long as he has a few groupies to keep him warm at night.

Cheers,

Loudmouth :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 24 August 2012 11:04:39 PM
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Poirot,

Prior to out-break of nazism, Germany was considered the most civilized and cultured country in the western world. The professional armed services, which Hitler inherited, were imbued with such social principles. This didn't stop the Luftwaffer straffing refugees fleeing on the roads nor, as the Dutch will tell you, straffing school children on their way to school. This remains in living memory for many.

The British in Northern Ireland ... and in your lifetime ...

With the advent of Wikileaks, governments will ensure greater security for any material they deem sensitive. Many of the gains others have made for openness of information will be lost.

Many governments will see Wikileaks as a wonderful opportunity for disseminating misinformation.

Poirot, I have always considered your comments extremely sound, and I applauded you. On this issue, we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 24 August 2012 11:34:54 PM
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Loudmouth,

"I guess it's not easy being a show-pony..."

Therein lies the crux of your whole tirade against Assange.

Your many posts call for him to "do his time". He hasn't been charged with a crime, let alone found guilty of one (Just as ounce of logic on your behalf, instead of contempt, would reveal how easy it would be to question Assange - and how easy it would be to guarantee against US extradition)....but, of course, that's not the point as far as you're concerned, is it?

You can't abide the fact that this guy had the balls to stand up to the big boys. Which would explain why you're so positively overzealous in your efforts to paint him as a prancing pony.

Frankly, that says more about you than it does about him.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 August 2012 11:40:23 PM
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Danielle,

There is an extremely thin line that separates civilised behaviour and barbarity in the human experience.

Striving for openness is admirable. However, split as we are into enclaves of self-interest, those who pull the strings will always seek to gain by deception. Ordinary folk are apathetic because they've never had or expected access to the uncensored facts - the truth.

I respect your input on this forum also - so, yes, this time we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 August 2012 12:10:30 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Yes, maybe I deserve a good head-kicking.

But maybe we should play the ball, not the man, and get back to principles. For instance, what principle is involved in this case ? Is it 'principled' that Ecuador has now put itself off-side with not just the Yanks (no big deal there) but the Swedes and the British as well, and perhaps the EU, and for a long time to come. Will it be worth it to shield an alleged scum-bag, just so that the Ecuadorian government could rally the rent-a-crowds across South America and shove it up the Yanks ?

Who haven't, as yet, laid any charges against Assange. In that sense, dear Poirot, they are as innocent of any wrong-doing as your Boy Wonder.

Cheers,

Joe :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 25 August 2012 9:58:40 AM
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"..what principle is involved in this case?...."

Principles?

Now let's see?

Here is a selection of your "principled" argument on this thread.

"...alleged scumbag...."

"....scum-bag, show-pony like Assange..."

"...he can r00t who he likes..."

"As long as he had a useful supply of virgins."

"...All Swedish women are sluts...."

"....Julian Assange has r00ted a couple of Swedish birds..."

"So our champion r00ter goes to Sweden...."

"....Hey maybe that's how our Julian saw his heroic r00ting of a couple of Swedish chicks..."

"If you ever go to Ecuador, Poirot, take plenty of condoms. And stay awake, whatever you do. And sober, I suspect, with the light on."

Speaks for itself, Mr Principled.

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 August 2012 10:25:21 AM
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Poirot,

Who said irony wasn't wasted on the pseudo-Left ?

To get back to principles, and away from your obsessive apologetics for show-ponies, let's look at things one at a time:

* is Sweden some sort of puppet state of the far Right in the US ? I don't think so.

* should female Wikileaks volunteers be taken advantage of and simply told to shut up, for the good of the cause ? I don't think so.

* should people answer for any alleged misdemeanours or worse ? I think so, no matter who and what they are charged with, or what great benefit they have done to entire humanity: face up to charges, and if one has done the crime, one does the time.

* should Assange & Co have redacted those thousands of emails before they passed them over to The Guardian and The NY Times ? Yes, I think so. Of course, The Guardian and the Times should have had the decency to do it themselves.

* should we have the courage and integrity to be able to criticise our 'own' ? yes, we should. Yes, we should praise them for what good they may have done but one does not cancel out, or give licence to, the other.

* should we support the freedom of expression and the right to know, even if it leads to bitter criticism and differences of opinion, even - horror ! - causing offence ? Yes, of course we should.

* should we promote the rights and power of formerly and currently oppressed groups, such as Indigenous people, ethnic groups, women and the working class ? of course we should.

Right, those are the principles I would support, to begin with.

Your turn :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 25 August 2012 3:56:25 PM
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"To get back to principles..."

We've already examined the basis for your splendidly principled argument.

"...and away from your obsessive apologetics for show ponies..."

You mean as opposed to your obsessive compunction to insert the term "r00t" in every post?

"....face up to charges, and if one has done the crime, one does the time."

You label an uncharged man a "scumbag show-pony" because of the Swedish allegations. So far there are no charges, there is no crime, and the Swedish authorities have not taken up offers by Assange to be questioned.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your obvious vexation and envy.

Good luck with that.

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 August 2012 10:23:24 PM
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Hi Poirot,

An interesting take on 'principle':

"So far there are no charges, there is no crime, and the Swedish authorities have not taken up offers by Assange to be questioned."

By the same token, the US has not initiated any charges against Assange - there is no evidence (apart from a few Tea Party nut-cases) that the US intends any harm whatsoever to Assange.

Which does leave one to suspect that his faux outrage about being taken from Sweden to the US is a cover for - quite possibly - his actual offences against your sisters.

The paranoia of the faux Left is quite intriguing - here's their boy, accused by a couple of his erstwhile devoted supporters to having abused them and they have initiated legal proceedings against him, which the state involved (Sweden) is legally bound to pursue. He happens to be in Britain, and after the standard legal proceedings there, the British are legally bound to ensure that he is taken to Sweden to face those charges. It is not up to him to dictate terms.

So what does he do ? He jumps bail (which must have pissed off some of his wealthier supporters), skips to the embassy of another country, buggering up their relations with Britain and Sweden in the process, and dragging most South American countries unnecessarily into the fray. The standard anti-Yank paranoia takes care of the rest.

So where will it all end up ? He won't ever be able to leave the Ecuadorian embassy without being immediately grabbed by the british police, carrying out their duties. That's the bottom line. His dream of becoming a potato farmer in the back-clocks of Ecuador will not come to fruition, UNLESS he submits to the legal processes, goes to Sweden to face the charges, and is either

(a) found not guilty and returns to Britain, then to the back-blocks of Ecuador OR

(b) found guilty, does his six months or whatever and returns to Britain etc.

What have I got wrong, Poirot ?

Love,

Joe :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 25 August 2012 11:18:56 PM
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Poirot et al,

Something has been raised in the mainstream media, but has received little air here:

The UK has an extradition treaty with the US, and a pro US government. Why then would JA's extradition to Sweden pose any more of a risk than staying in the UK, especially as a standard condition of extradition from the UK is a clause that would require Sweden to obtain permission prior to extraditing him on further?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 26 August 2012 6:34:42 AM
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SM,

http://justice4Assange.com/US-Extradition.html#WUKJA

Points relevant to UK-US extradition.

Loudmouth,

As yet there are "no charges".

I'm about done with this subject for now - got a big day in the vegie patch coming up.

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 26 August 2012 9:06:59 AM
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Hi Poirot,

So that's a 'yes' ?

Are you agreeing that yes, currently there are no US charges against Boy Wonder ?

That it would be easier for the US to lay such charges against Assange in the UK than in Sweden ?

That, as Shadow Minister points out, yes, there would be all sorts of legal qualifications, national AND international, put on Assange's extradition from the UK to Sweden, and thence to the US, i.e. from his 'custodial' country to a third country ? In law, after all, it is proposed to ship him off from his 'custodial' country to Sweden for a single purpose, i.e. to question him about charges of rape - and if he is either found not guilty, OR tried, found guilty and does his time like a real man should, is to be automatically shipped back either to the Uk or a country of his choice. Perhaps Ecuador, where he can pursue his love of potato-farming.

That yes, there is no evidence that the Swedes are contemplating shipping him off to the US if asked - in fact, no evidence that the US might ask ? Have they done so yet ? Wouldn't they have to ask the UK first as his 'custodial' country ? [Sorry, I don't know the proper legal term for the responsibilities of a state towards its inhabitants in protection of their rights; their 'guardian of last report' maybe].

Well, that's done and dusted then. Thank you, Poirot.

Cheers,

Joe :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 26 August 2012 10:45:38 AM
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Loudmouth,

Yep, mate, done and dusted....you're legend in your own mind. (even if you persist in erroneously declaring he has "charges" to face in Sweden)

Congrats on that : )

Actually, I just popped in from the patch for a cuppa, and reading your self-proclaimed victory made me smile.

Our two retired chooks, Ada and Elsie have the freedom of the back garden for the time being, and they like to cackle away at me from the other side of the vegie patch fence....reminiscent somehow of my experience on this thread,....

.....except they're more humble.

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 26 August 2012 11:07:33 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Yes, you're right, it's hard to be humble when one is correct in one's assessment.

If you have anything to add which actually relates to the issues, rather than to my modesty or otherwise - and I do mean something other than nit-picking over whether Assange has been charged or, as you imply, has merely been invited to be questioned - then I am sure there are many of us out here waiting for your clarifications.

Has the US laid charges yet ? No.

Has Sweden indicated that they will hand him straight over to the US ? No.

Has the UK indicated that they will - perfidious Albion ! - find some way that they haven't yet to hand him over to the US ? No.

Will all of this strengthen friendly ties between some South American countries and the UK, Sweden or the European Union ? Probably not.

Will Ecuador's craven and unprincipled opportunism divert attention from its own problems at home ? Probably not.

And of course, the most relevant question: should a Hero of the People be allowed to abuse female supporters ? You may say yes, but I mkodestly think 'no'.

And if they complain, do they immediately become puppets of the US in the minds of the opportunist Left, or are they still their own persons, standing up for themselves at the risk of losing 'friends' on the faux-Left ? We may differ in our answers here too.

Sorry for the negativity :)

Over to you, Poirot, when you can spare the time in a 16-hour work-day looking after two chooks.
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 26 August 2012 11:36:34 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Sorry to hear about your laryngitis.

The brave and principled President of Ecuador is reported today as saying that, in South Americam countries, what Assange is alleged to have done is not a crime: it's not a crime not to wear a condom - of course, the right of a woman to have any say is neither here nor there, in such macho countries.

So to hell with Swedish law: let's have a sort of mock trial here, Poirot: should Assange have worn a condom, as his partner asked him to ? Does her opinion matter ? It's his body, after all, which needs relief.

And while we're at it (and I dare not think what many South Americans think of this one), let's 'deconstruct' the right of a woman not be interfered with while she is asleep. Yes, yes, Assange has needs, you may be right, he's so anti-imperialist, but again - and maybe this is far too progressive for South American governments - is there any way that the woman's rights can be, in some small way, taken into account ?

No,perhaps you're right - from that confluence of opinion of far (faux) Left and far Right, of Assange and Akin, the answer from the Left these days is a resounding 'NO'. They love it, gagging for it in fact, especially when they're pretending they're not.

Maybe they should just get used to it, condom or no condom, asleep or awake. You can't rush 'rights'. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Cheers,

Joe

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 27 August 2012 9:44:28 AM
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Loudmouth,

Let's deconstruct Britain's threat to remove embassy status to get a man "wanted for questioning" (although Sweden refuses to question him in Britain) about "a-l-l-e-g-a-t-i-o-n-s" that he didn't have permission not to use a condom.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/allegation

You seem to taking the accuser's word as the absolute truth as fuel for your argument.

Obviously it still doesn't strike through the density of your bias that all this is slightly over-the-top for a man wanted for questioning on dubious sexual liaisons with women who, well after the fact, and in consultation with each other, decided that their modesty had been impugned.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 27 August 2012 10:33:39 AM
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Poirot,

I read your link, and I find the arguments put forward tenuous at best. Both countries have independent Judicial systems, of which Sweden is well known to respect the rights of the accused. Sweden could not extradite JA without the permission of the UK.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 27 August 2012 11:50:41 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Yes, allegation only, for which he must answer in accordance with Swedish procecure, not yours or mine. Until he does so, he is neither guilty of not guilty.

I guess the bottom like is that he is accused of abusing two Wikileaks volunteers, women who gave him a place to stay and seemed to be more than generous to him. They may not make that alleged mistake again.

The Swedes have demanded that he be extradited to Sweden to face questioning about those charges. It is their prerogative where they question him, not yours or mine. Call me biased but I hope he receives the full force of justice.

Take that however you like.

Joe :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 27 August 2012 2:29:14 PM
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Your narrative paints the two ladies as if they are as pure as the driven snow.

"....and seemed more than generous to him....."

Well, yes indeed, it appears they were.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 27 August 2012 3:02:12 PM
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Sorry, Poirot, I don't get your drift. Are you suggesting that the 'ladies', as you call them, (not 'sisters' ?) are not what they seem ? Yes, it certainly wasn't cricket for them to cast aspersions against our Hero of the People, to exploit his necessities and unfairly make him seem not to be the Hero that we know he is.

And we all know what Swedish women - 'ladies' (yuk, yuk) - are really like, we've seen the movies.

Yes, it's all an American plot, from even before Assange sought relief, a honey trap. Despicable Yanks ! And what is so cunning about it all is that there is not the slightest trace of evidence linking the US to those 'women' - devilishly clever ! That just goes to show how devious, and what utter b@stards, they are.

i.e. in the paranoid world of the faux left. Any comment, Poirot ?

Cheers,

Joe

:)
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 27 August 2012 7:47:53 PM
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No,

I'll leave you to your reasoning that "allegation" means "culpability" - and "questioning" means "charges". Seems to have about the same level of integrity as the Swedish conduct of this case.

Just one thing, Joe. and I know you think your sarcastic rejoinders are scintillating...but I really am over debating someone who "only" has recourse to such a low form of wit.

I won't be bothering anymore.

Cheers

: )
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 27 August 2012 8:30:43 PM
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.................................................................................................................[LOUDMOUTH exits Right, crushed]
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 27 August 2012 8:44:23 PM
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Has anyone read Robert Manne's article about Assange. Although Assange required removal of some material, this article is still quite enlightening.

www.themonthly.com.au/julian-assange-cybher-punk-revolutionary-robert-manne-3081

My take is that Assange is extremely intelligent,has some good ideas, but is mentally undisciplined and, as with many very intelligent people, seems to lack common sense ... In addition, I suspect that others, who might have done the same, would have foreseen that Wikileaks as a vehicle for 'freedom on information' would have a very short life. Many did not find the revelations on Wikileaks surprising. The Pentagon Papers, which were released in June last year, were much more valuable.

Manne's article also showed that Assange has a very cavalier attitude towards women. Whether this would lead to rape in the right circumstances ...?

The full allegations again Assange are here:
www.judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2011/assange-judgment-021120
Posted by Danielle, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 8:15:06 PM
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[LOUDMOUTH enters Left, refreshed]
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 11:09:26 PM
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