Blah, blah, blah .....

I agree! Israel has had enough, enough time to prove itself.

It has made the Palestinian's lives a misery since 1947. It has committed countless war crimes. It has committed genocide. It has stolen more and more Palestinian land, demolished Palestinian houses, built settlements everywhere on occupied territory, destroyed Palestinian orchards, stolen Palestinian taxes, starved Palestinians, shot their children, etc.

It has turned Palestinians in the West Bank into virtual slaves (A, B, and C-types and has created the world's biggest outdoor prison in Gaza.

Yes, Israel has had enough. It was given a chance to prove its credentials and all it proved was that it is rogue nation without principle, without morality, without values, without an ounce of humanity.

It is time that Israel was thrown out of the M.E. lock, stock and barrel.

The world can no longer tolerate this human cancer!

The recreation of Israel, was predicated on a belief, that as the sons and daughters of Abraham, they as returning Migrants, retained property rights over certain lands, which apparently includes most if not all of Palestine?
However, DNA testing proves that the Jew and the Palestinian are cousins sharing the same DNA and or, forbears.
As such, Palestinians have equal or superior claims; given, they remained in situ, while their Jewish cousins roamed far and wide over most if not all Europe; and then, most of the new world.
If Palestine and the entire Arab world is prepared to accept an Israeli state inside the 1947 borders, then that's what the interlopers ought to agree to.
That doesn't stop anyone coming to any acceptable commercial arrangement, or land sales.
Palestinians in Israel and Israelis in Palestine with equal rights! It would look a lot better than a Kismet that sounds more like a bellicose belligerent Nazi headquarters, than a democratically elected parliament? Peace has a price and those that truly desire it need to pay it! Rhrosty.

The point missed by both David's, is that the expanded Israeli government exists at the behest of Israeli-Arabs/Palestinians.

The Kadima opposition party was elected on the promise to get rid of the occupied territories. Once elected however, its leader Tsipi Livni, then the leader of the opposition and largest party in the Knesset, disappointed her voters by being just the opposite of Tony Abbot - sitting on the opposition chairs for years silent as a fish. At least, one could say, she did no harm.

That created apathy in the party ranks and though Kadima had many supporters, the actual party-membership dwindled. Meanwhile, Mofaz, a shrewd and aggressive politician from her party, whose openly-stated ambition is to become Israel's next Prime-Minister, quietly bribed whole Israeli-Arab villages into joining the party. In those villages it's all a matter of loyalty to the village-chiefs, which he easily bought. Then he challenged Tsipi's leadership and won by the votes of those small Arab villages - a tiny fraction of the party's voters (in fact most of those villagers voted for Arab parties in the previous elections, not for Kadima).

It is with those Arab/Palestinian votes that Mofaz came to help Netanyahu to retain the territories, in utter contempt to the Israeli voter. It's not even that he cares about the territories this way or the other - the only thing he cares about is the prime-minister's seat.

P.S. David G,

<<It is time that Israel was thrown out of the M.E. lock, stock and barrel.>>

What is your alternative suggestion? is it the gas chambers, or should we accept the Israelis here in Australia as boat-people?

"No doubt such offer will be rejected - because it would mean a substantial diminution in territory from the last offer made by Israel's Prime Minister Olmert in 2008 - and several even more attractive offers made and rejected in 1937,1947 and 2000. Israel would be totally justified in this decision - since it is now facing a militarized Palestinian State that does not recognize Israel as the Jewish State."

Sorry David but Israel is a fascist state, ruled and run by fascists, and a falsely established state by the British at the end of WWII. Jews have less credibility in land ownership than Palestinians; at least they have remained on the land for thousands of years. The only reason Israel remains as it is, is through the corrupt financial/political influence it corruptly peddles through the continuing US hegemony we see today.

Interesting fact that more Jews live outside Israel than within its boarders!

Current Jewish leadership is redemonstrating how Nazi propaganda leads to the genocide of a suppressed and politically, economically and socially ostracised people........so much for lessons learnt through history.

The state of Israel was established to retain British and US interests in the Middle East, where coincidently oil was discovered in the 1920's and 30's......how convenient.....never mind the poor people already living there.

Jews in Israel should be thoroughly ashamed of their apartheid government and sanctions against this shameful nation should be more severe and harsher than those currently facing Iran, hypocrites.

David you are a shameful character, with a misguided bent on ethical humane behaviour, thank god I don’t have your conscience,

Utterly shameful.

Just when I thought is was safe to visit OLO, he's back!

Poor little defenceless Israel, with only nuclear weapons and the region's most efficient war machine for protection.
I wonder if there's an award for the most indefatigable propagandist on a non-Zionist site.

The darkness of the Zionists' deceit was and is camouflaged by the appearance of civil structures existing within the framework of a legal authority, the Mandatory Government's accepted agency for the Jewish community in Palestine and, today the presence of lobbies, think tanks, controlled media of communication, and legalisation of policies that allow for dual citizenship among others.

“Until Israel's 2006 blitzkrieg of Lebanon, when the world had an opportunity to witness the ruthlessness of Israeli Zionist violence unimpeded by concern for helpless civilians fleeing for their lives or orphans unable to take shelter from missiles or children returning home after fearful flight from invading forces only to find toy-like cluster bombs left intentionally to maim or slaughter, the world's communities felt a sympathy for the offspring of those victimized by the Nazis.”

On December 27, 2008, Israel’s Christmas bombing of Gaza, Holiday giving with a vengeance. Once again, the might of Israel’s state of the art military – its air force, navy, and army invaded the defenceless, imprisoned, physically destitute residents of Gaza. Once again, the world witnessed the ruthlessness of Israel’s Zionist intent to subjugate, humiliate, and obliterate the indigenous people of Palestine.

Now the world knows the truth: the Zionist Consultancy that ruled the Jewish people in Palestine in 1930s and 1940s, like their counterparts in the Israeli government of Ehud Olmert in December of 2008 and January of 2009, intended to expel the people of Palestine from their land and had the military means to do it against an anaemic enemy incapable of defending the people.

“The Zionist project could only be realized through the creation in Palestine of a purely Jewish state, both as a safe haven for Jews from persecution and a cradle for a new Jewish nationalism. And such a state had to be exclusively Jewish not only in its socio-political structure but also in its ethnic composition.”

Israel verses the Palestinian people "the worlds new Genocide".

David, answer me this one question......Why have a civilisation if we're no longer interested in being civilised?

Geoff said:

"Current Jewish leadership is redemonstrating how Nazi propaganda leads to the genocide of a suppressed and politically, economically and socially ostracised people."

I always thought that under a genocidal regime the targeted population declined markedly. The Palestinian population inside Israel has risen from approx 250,000 in 1948 to approx 1.25 million today. If this is genocide then the Israelis have shown complete incompetence unlike the Nazis who exterminated two thirds of the Jewish population of Europe.

Time has come for me to cry,
For evil Zionist am I,
Here I jump into the sea,
1 ... 2 ... 3!

Are you holding your breath to hear that song, guys?
Just for 4 minutes...?
Otherwise, why should you expect others to sing it?

Zionism aside, if you offer no constructive solution for the people who live in Israel, who are trapped there in those silly wars, most of whom actually born there and never had another home, then expect nothing but more of the same you complain about.

Oh, and if you are about to suggest: "Just live with the fundamental Islamists of the M.E. side-by-side like brothers and sisters", OOPS, "like brothers with brothers and sisters with sisters, not minding your status of dhimmis", then why not show them a personal example of this lifestyle, first here in Australia?

I always think that the so-called Palestinians always get the Israeli government they deserve. Silly sausages.

A couple of years ago a noted philosopher wrote an article in which he suggested that Americans live in an artificial or virtual reality. Another noted philosopher said that he thought there was a 25% chance that the philosopher was right. I am convinced that he is right. Americans live in the Matrix. Nothing that they know or think that they know is correct.

For example, their non-truth-telling “leaders” continually declare that “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.” This myth is one of the many reasons rolled out to justify American taxpayers’ declining incomes being taxed to provide the Israeli government with the means to murder Palestinians and steal their country.

Israeli democracy a myth you say? Yes, a myth. According to news reports compiled and reported by Antiwar.com (May 8), the September 4 Israeli elections have been cancelled, because the “opposition leader Shaul Mofaz is joining the government.”

Mofaz sold out his party for personal power, a typical politician’s behavior.

Mofaz’s treachery produced protests from his followers, but, according to news reports, “Israeli police were quick to crack down on the protest, terming it ‘illegal’ and arresting a number of journalists.”

Ah, “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.”

In truth Israel is a fascist state, one that has been in violation of international law and Christian morality during the entirety of its existence. Yet, in America Israel is a hallowed icon. Like Bush, Cheney, and Obama, millions of American “christians” worship Israel and believe it is “God’s calling” for Americans to die for Israel.

If you believe in murdering your opponents, not debating with them, dispossessing the powerless, creating a fictional world based on lies and paying the corporate media to uphold the lies and fictional world, you are part of what the rest of the world perceives as “The West" and the West has a problem....

If indeed "Israel is the only democracy in the ME" that fact is completely useless as a defence of the policy of slow annihilation of the Palestinians. Are Israel's human right violations, all developed and committed after proper parliamentary procedure, somehow sanitised by the process?

The USA is a great democracy which has committed an alarming number of atrocities in the course of its history and gross errors of judgement, one of the most despicable, is its uncritical support of Israel.

'[PA] in breach of its obligations under the Oslo Accords and the Roadmap...'

You really have no shame. Is there any part of the Oslo Accords or Road Crash that the Israeli's kept?

We can only hope that one day there will be a one state solution where Palestinians and Israelis live together. European jews of no relation to their semetic cousins (both Jew and Arab) will continue to form the ruling class but at least the Palestinians won't have to live under occupation and Israli arabs won't have ot submit to Nuremburg type racial purity laws.

We can only hope Iran gets a couple of hundred nuclear bombs. At the moment Israel has complete military supremacy and so will never make peace. Only when they are really challenged will there be real peace.

Apparently the French gave Israel important nuclear secrets when developing their bomb. Maybe in a decade or two when muslims are rising through French society, French muslims will help Iran.

Either way, as an ethnically pure Jewish state, Israel will not last. All states built on such inequality fail eventually.

David Singer why do you not live in Israel ?

Australia has over a hundred nationalities and religions which have a high degree of tolerance and co-operatio.Why cannot God's chosen people get along with one? ie the Palistinians.

Geoff of Perth:

“Israel is a fascist state, ruled and run by fascists, and a falsely established state by the British at the end of WWII”

Incorrect. Israel was established by a UN resolution, DESPITE British objection. The Brits preferred supporting the Arab states at the time as a way of maintaining their influence in the Middle East.
Do you consider a UN resolution to be “false”?

Regarding the "fascist state" claim:

"Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation...through a totalitarian single-party state"

(Wikipedia entry for Fascism)

Seems to me like this definition is suitable for most of the states in the Middle East - except for Israel.

“The state of Israel was established to retain British and US interests in the Middle East…”

As I mentioned, the Brits were actually against it. The US had mixed feelings as well, and in 1948 tried to convince Israel to postpone independence.

“Jews in Israel should be thoroughly ashamed of their apartheid government”

Other than re-using a popular slogan, do you actually know what apartheid means?

Regarding Israeli attacks in Gaza and Lebanon: these attacks were in response to terror attacks from these areas into Israel. Any independent country is expected to defend its citizens from foreign attackers. It is the continuous rocket attacks into Israeli territory that trigger Israeli response, not the other way around.

Regarding the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from areas in Israel, yes, unfortunately it did happen. But so did the expulsion of Jews from the Arab Middle East – I don’t see you shedding a tear for them, or even acknowledging their existence.

“Israeli democracy a myth… [because] the September 4 Israeli elections have been cancelled”

You are confusing political games with the idea of democracy. The elections in Israel were scheduled to take place late next year. Netanyahu believed he has a good chance to improve his position if he goes for early elections now, but changed his mind when Mofaz joined his coalition. The elections will take place as originally scheduled, late next year. Political games, like in any democracy.

I look forward to your clarifications

Well we have the usual group here ... and another

Geoff of Perth,

You know nothing about Israel/Palestinian history; you write about fascism and apartheid ... clearly you know nothing of these either. To write 'apartheid' in the same sentence as Israel is to diminish, even negate, the terrible experiences of those who suffered under it in South Africa.

You plagiarize - an unforgivable sin ... and not intelligent either. Your argument consists of uncritically taking whole chunks and regurgitating from:

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=19294 and
http://911caper.com/tag/media-coverup/

The sites speak for themselves ... 911caper a conspiracy site. You now share the same page with Arjay.

Danielle,Care to put money on the science on this site http://www.ae911truth.org/ Name the sum and I'll debate you in any forum.We have the absolute scientific proof that explosives were used in the towers and WTC Building 7 which few people know about.It is far,far more convincing than the CO2 lies.

My bet is that you lack the courage and the intellectual prowess.

Dear Arjay,

You are always good for a grin ... You have been debated on 9/11 over the last three years or so ...

Perhaps a new conspiracy theory would liven things up for you again ...

Danielle,I'm serious.$50,000 on the science of freefall or $10,000 on the science of nano thermite.

Dear Arjay,

With odds like that, submit an article online and have debate open to all? Such excitement!! A new first for The Forum.

Undoubtedly, Geoff of Perth and one (what) under god would be in your corner.

Now do submit an article.

You will agree, such a debate is not apropos to the topic in hand.

Danielle,Graham like you is sh!t scared to confront the truth and won't publish it.Let's do it now with my opponents. http://www.debunking911.com/

Here you will see as their lead picture the South Tower tilted at 23 deg.According to NIST the National Institute for Standards and Technology,the top third of this tower was the pile driver that crushed the lower floors.

This was impossible for many reasons.The top third pile driver should have continued on this vertor and fallen over.Hit a nail at this angle and it bends thus not driving it home.Further video footage of the South tower shows this pile driver evaporate mysteriously into dust.What force pulverised the floors above the plane collision into dust? This was concrete reinforced steel.It does not self destruct even under the influence of fire.

All 3 buildings collapsed in virtual freefall speeds which implies that all the structure below the plane impact for the towers had absolutely no structural integrity yet they stayed intact for over 40 yrs.

Care to enter a real debate Danielle?

Dear Arjay,

I'm sure Graham is not afraid of debate ... why should he be? After all, he let you publish here ...

But it needs a different forum from this one.

We are diverting from the topic at hand ...

Reply with a new article.

This is getting further and further off-topic, further and further irrelevant.

Suppose, just suppose for a moment, that all conspiracy-stories in the world were true. Suppose the Israeli government is indeed blacker than coal; suppose for example that Israelis planned 9/11 - FINE, how would that change anything for the average ordinary Israeli? Or are you suggesting perchance that the ordinary Israeli knew in advance about the plan to take down the New-York towers? or even approved of it retroactively?

Back to square 1, you guys - you are simply using conspiracies to avoid discussing real solutions, to avoid answering my practical questions above.

Yuyutsu,

If the Palestinians recognised the State of Israel and held out a sincere hand of peace, it would be a start leading to a quick solution.

If only they had done this decades ago ...

So simple, but seemingly impossible for them to do so.

Their divisions and conflict remain - West Bank/Gaza - the recent past Palestinian civil war ...

I might have missed something, but their own claim of statehood hasn't lead to any changes within; seemingly no improvements to their society.

I don't agree with the settlements, but they are legal if built on public lands.

Dear Danielle,

I don't care whether the Palestinians recognise the state of Israel or not, because even if they did, they could change that the next day.

Therefore, I don't even bother to ask them.

In fact, I don't even care to recognise the state of Israel myself, but my family lives there and the destruction of Israel would imply the destruction of my family - so no thanks: Israel may be wrong, even very wrong on many aspects of its policy, but when it comes to my family, I rather have Israel wrong and my family alive then Israel right and my family dead - and if someone touches my family, then I rather have them nuked and let the whole world go up with them in a radioactive inferno.

One fact of life is, that nobody who isn't a Muslim (and a true believer of Islam not merely a pretender, in fact of the "correct" flavour of Islam), can live in peace and dignity among Islamic extremists. The state of Israel, despite all its evil, is the only thing which currently stands between those Islamists and my family!

The "usual group here" (plus Geoff of Perth) so far ignores my posts and in their blind hate of Israel cares not to provide a suitable solution for my family (and all other innocent Israelis caught between). In that case, why on earth should I care for them and their "Palestinians"?

"...and if someone touches my family, then I rather have them nuked and let the whole world go up with them in a radioactive inferno."

Wow! It's no wonder we have the world we have when people think like this!

Humans are heading for extinction. It will be no loss!

http://dangerouscreation.com

<<Humans are heading for extinction. It will be no loss!>>

I leave the judgment whether it will be a loss or otherwise up to you, David, but just as a reminder, you also have another option, an easier one in fact - DON'T TOUCH MY FAMILY (they've got nukes and you know that)!

"(they've got nukes and you know that)!"

Yeah, Yuyutsu, I know that and I also know that they are crazy enough to use them.

What do you do when a tiny bunch of elitist religious fanatics have a nuclear arsenal?

7.5 billion citizens of the world wonder and worry about that every day!

Oh dear, Arjay, not again.

>>We have the absolute scientific proof that explosives were used in the towers and WTC Building 7 which few people know about... Danielle,I'm serious.$50,000 on the science of freefall or $10,000 on the science of nano thermite.<<

Just like the last time, and the time before, you're not serious at all.

What is the 2012 equivalent of "sounding like a broken record"?

I accepted your offer, if you recall, with only one condition, which was that you first nominate an acceptable referee who decides which of us is "right". You backed off at a million miles an hour.

But maybe you are better prepared this time. Whom would you suggest. Or alternatively, what jury, commission or formally convened body of people would you be prepared to be allowed to assess your "evidence"?

I'm listening.

Here was I quietly moseying back to a thread in the interests of trying to comprehend Yuyutsu's passion about Israel, even though he's told us there is no reality but God… and wondering whether to suggest my 'killer solution' (that may have been a poor choice of phrase) for the Israel/Palestine dilemma

Strata title!

When what should raise its ugly head?

And the issue of WTC and nanothermite as well...

Is the wager an annual event? Though I note it's gone up $30,000 since this time last year - at least that general thread was titled Conspiracy Theories. Arjay must have been lying recently when he told us how bad business was for him.

If my tone is slightly peevish, it's for being silly in offering to debate the issue for nothing (RFID) and for the huge detour to this thread.

I'm watching.

Dear Trevor,

I do not have a passion about Israel, I am passionate about my family who happens to live there. I think we can agree that normality is not a virtue, but caring for one's family is a normal human behaviour - why should it raise anyone's eyebrow?

I will be delighted to hear you detail your 'killer solution' if it can help my family.

Dear David,

<<What do you do when a tiny bunch of elitist religious fanatics have a nuclear arsenal?>>

Take cover, I suppose... A space-ship perhaps? A base on the moon? LSD?

Or prevent it in the first place, which is what Israel is trying to do in Iran, with or without help from the rest of the world.

In any case, once they do have the arsenal, one thing not to do, is to drive them to a corner, to a point of no return. Israel will never initiate a nuclear attack just for the fun of it - it will only use its arsenal as the last resort if it is totally desperate about surviving.

What you can do in the longer term, is to solve the fundamentalist-Islamic problem. Once you do, Israel will no longer have a real reason to exist and will disintegrate by itself. Those "tiny bunch of elitist religious fanatics" are currently in power there due to fear, a legitimate fear of extremist Islam. Once that fear is gone, they will lose their power-base.

Sorry, Yuyutsu, it is only as detailed as the two words - strata title...

Whistler's concept of a bicameral parliament adapted from men/women to Palestinian/Israeli would be interesting - giving both parties joint shared interest in the same set of 'assets' of lands and peoples.

But we both know it won't happen.

Yuyutsu, Israel will not disintegrate if perceived Muslim threats vanish.

When in human history has any nation given up its military advantage?

And what about Israel's plan for 'A Greater Israel', one which takes in large areas of land belonging to its neighbours?

If you're worried about your Israeli family, get them out of there instead of trying to write the history of the M.E. to suit them!

David G,

Israel has not used its nuclear power since obtaining it. It will only do so if under threat of annihilation. What country would not do the same?

A "greater Israel"? Is that why Israel relinquished the Gaza and Sinai? Be logical. Don't adhere blindly to Palestinian propaganda.

In hindsight, leaving Gaza was not a good decision, neither for Israel nor the Palestinian people.

Terrorist and rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel are the norm.

The Palestinians endured competing leadership, resulting in civil war. Thousands thought with their feet.The stampede to leave the area,(along with their businesses), brought down a fatwa forbidding departure unless temporarily for education.

Competing leadership! What chance for the Palestinian people to have political stability, let alone political security and to move forward?

As demonstrated by the migration out of the Palestinian territories .. if the situation in Israel for Arabs is so bad, why don't they migrate wholesale ... indeed even to the West Bank? Of course, many undoubtedly would prefer to remain in Israel where their future is. High-ranking, high-status Arabs - those in the knesset,local council, in academia, the armed services, diplomatic corps, in research, education,the arts, big business, media, and every other field of endeavor. But perhaps we shouldn't mention this. Undoubtedly,Jewish Israelis are unaware that Arabs ...

WmTrevor,

You mean a one-state solution? It wouldn't work.

What experience have the Palestinians for running a progressive 'country'. They've had sixty years to prove they can and what have they got to show for it? What about their political disfunction?

Unfortunately - but logically - Israelis would float to the top positions. What an international scream this would cause ... and the chest thumping (but very effective) 'victimhood'..

Danielle, if I had meant a one-state solution I would have said so… if by one state we refer to a single state with equal rights for all in a combined entity of a single territory without regard to ethnicity or religion?

What I was glibly suggesting was analogous to strata title: to a single piece of real estate vested with two separate owners.

I might have equally glibly suggested – without having to bother with details – a one-God solution, since both 'sides' hold such a view.

If it would help I'll change my previous final sentence to… But we three know it won't happen!

Dear David,

<<If you're worried about your Israeli family, get them out of there instead of trying to write the history of the M.E. to suit them!>>

Have I not tried already?

There are two problems about that and you may be able to help with the first, but I doubt you can do anything about the second:

1. The Australian government is not as generous as yourself when it comes to immigration/visas. Perhaps you should lobby them, if not for everyone then at least to declare all Israelis as refugees.

2. They don't want to leave - and some would be unable to travel due to health even if they wanted. They have everything there - their friends, their homes, their language, their trees, their memories, the children's schools, the adults' jobs and the elderly their doctors, pharmacies and carers.

I can assure you that none in my family is interested in "A greater Israel". All they want is to have a life and live peacefully in their own homes.

My family, as are most Israelis, are hostages to the same 'tiny bunch of elitist religious fanatics' you mentioned (although I disagree with that use of 'religious': Judaism is a nationality, not a religion, but anyway the result is only worse). Some of my family have already left everything they had while escaping Hitler in 1933: What you are asking, is to turn the victims into refugees again and perhaps you would even succeed if they haven't had nukes - but they have!

Israel is the most split society on earth, comprising of different people and groups who hate each other to death. The only glue which holds it together is the existential fear of the Muslim-fundamentalist threat surrounding them: take that away and Israel will fall apart in no time.

Yuyutsu you quote "My family, as are most Israelis, are hostages to the same 'tiny bunch of elitist religious fanatics' you mentioned (although I disagree with that use of 'religious': Judaism is a nationality, not a religion, but anyway the result is only worse). Some of my family have already left everything they had while escaping Hitler in 1933: What you are asking, is to turn the victims into refugees again and perhaps you would even succeed if they haven't had nukes - but they have!"

Perhaps you should question why your so-called 'family' did not return to whatever country they were ousted by Hitler and his Nazi fanatics............why Israel, a false state created during a time of crisis, leading to further crisis and one that has no legitimacy under law, or at least to those of use whom recognise the Palestinian people as a historic people under a national government usurped by the British and American interests for a base within the middle east to grow their hegemony.

You also cite "comprising different people and groups who hate each other to death.", what a great way to start a nation based on fear loathing and an assumed right to nationhood based on a complete falsehood, perhaps your 'family' should return to Europe from whence they originally came, maybe they have some 'god given right' to claim a small patch in the EU that no one is currently aware of:

The question remains why you’re so called ‘family’ are victims; perhaps the answer remains opaque within the question that you seek.

A complete sad state of affairs, myopia sometimes leads to blindness and a slanted view of history and fairness!

You bastard, Geoff, for clearly you had no experience of family. May your so-called mother die of cancer, may your so-called father die of AIDS in jail, may your so-called brothers and sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins and children all die miserably, and yourself you have 25 minutes to pack up and return to England to claim there a small patch that no one is currently aware of, after coming here to disturb the original people of Australia.

You may have to worry about the history of your ancestry and the legitimacy of the choices of your grand-grand parents, long before you were born, not so my family - want to know the difference? They've got nukes to protect them, which your family doesn't have!

Yes, they have to pay the price, daily: living in Israel with those fanatic Jews all around is a pain, having to send the children to the army is terrible, to fight wars for goals they have no interest in (such as Jewish domination); and being blamed day-and-night by people like yourself for wanting to survive and remain in the homes they built.

While some of my family fled Hitler in 1933, others were in Israel long before any of your ancestors was in Australia - that is since the year 1600. As technology improved since the Nazis, I suppose you would like to use genetic methods to separate their common offspring, deciding who can stay and who must be sent to Europe...

Israel may be a false state, but it currently shields my family from a sea of Muslim fanatics which would otherwise tear them apart, and that's all I care.

Well said, Yuyutsu.
Some think history started less than 100 years ago.
Mugs, they are.