The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Australia’s close security relationship with the US is indeed logical > Comments

Australia’s close security relationship with the US is indeed logical : Comments

By Chris Lewis, published 24/4/2012

The US Alliance brings more right than wrong to the world.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All
Yes we and blindly blundering America have made many foreign policy mistakes, which simply cannot be overlooked or in any way justified!
None more glaring than the "POLICE" action in Vietnam. An action which wasted hundreds of thousands of young lives; and for what outcome?
A clearly ill advised/poorly led and badly beaten once mighty America, fleeing with its tail between its legs and deserting former allies? And indeed, great material for anti- American anti Australian Propagandists?
Having said that let me conclude by saying, I agree broadly with the evocations of the Author and the sentiments expressed in the article. Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 9:38:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris Lewis asks “Can critics be serious when they suggest that the war in Afghanistan will only be over when international troops have gone” so that “Afghanistan can proceed down the path to self-determination free of foreign interference”.

The war will not end for the foreseeable future, no matter who is in control of Afghanistan.
The country is a loose collection of different tribes and as such will never be able to peacably co -exist. It will only be possible to have some sort of uneasy peace when it is divided up into tribal areas and each one is strong enough to defend against any one of the others.
It is obvious that the US is aiming for total world empire (with over five hundred military bases and counting) and is well on the way to achieving this. The aim of the US is to control the remaining oil left in the world.
Australia is along for the ride so that the big brother US will provide security.
This is a very shortsighted outlook by Australia because it is by no means certain that the US will retain its empire for too much longer.
It’s once mighty financial system is mortgaged to the hilt to pay for it’s military.
Peak oil is here now and as it affects the US economy (as well as the rest of the world) so the military will be unable to continue as the world leaders. Who will fill the vacuum is not certain but is most likely to be China.
Woman is not going to be treated any differently in this area. They have always had a difficult life there as they have in most of the rest of the Sub continent.
Woman in Pakistan have just as bad a life in some areas.
Australia should distance itself from the US and keep itself non aligned otherwise we could find that we have backed the wrong side.
Posted by sarnian, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 9:45:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Australia should distance itself from the US and keep itself non aligned otherwise we could find that we have backed the wrong side".

Well if that is the case, then we are all doomed.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 11:30:39 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
When a nation becomes a superpower it will inevitably abuse that power. Perhaps we would be better off if we could substitute a more equitable arrangement for the nation state system.

Meanwhile we are stuck with the nation state system. During the twentieth centuries several entities challenged the US. If the US had not beaten back those challenges we, if we survived, would be living in a world dominated by Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia or Imperial Japan.

I can't imagine the domination of any of those entities as anything but far worse than US domination. US domination is evil, but it is the least of the possible evils.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 12:11:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yes Chris Lewis, we are all doomed, eventually, but I still do not want to be in the 51st US State.
It is interesting to consider what the world would be like now if Bush had not won (or cheated) against Gore?
There would have been no “war against terror”, no invasions of sovereign countries into which Australians were dragged.
The Neocon industrial war complex would not have looted billions from the poor.
I think it would have been a much better world.
Posted by sarnian, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 2:24:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Since WWII the US has wrought havoc in much of the world and has engineered many coups, supported numerous dictators and invaded scores of countries. The problem is it is getting worse almost as we speak.

We are seeing more military bases, more restrictive laws at home, more political and judicial corruption, less transparency and more lack of regard to the rights of sovereign nations - many democratic - to run their affairs as they see fit.

America as a great power is on its way out having badly damaged its own economy and many, many others. Australia would do well to adopt a much more neutral stance in its dealing with the teetering empire if for no other reason than that if push comes to shove China could damage us far more than we could them even with the help of the US. The new base in the NT must surely be seen by China as a provocation as it surely is.
Posted by kulu, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 2:38:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sarnian,

I agree that US policy could be so much better. I have argued that Australian society itself is light years ahead of the US in terms of avoiding unecessary social cleavages.

My concern is about declining Western influence, led by the US, notably the gains made in terms of international governance and so on. I also have little faith in societies that do not accept pluralism.

BTW, I also argued in Quadrant that unilateral action in Iraq without a UN mandate was one of the worst ever decsions by liberal democracies.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 2:44:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris Lewis,

"....unilateral action in Iraq without a UN mandate was one of the worst ever decisions by liberal democracies."

Well, yes, yes, yes!

But it was so obvious from the outset that it was based on a monumentally flawed premise - and yet, despite all that was said and done in protest in the lead up to the invasion, the U.S. juggernaut rolled ahead.

We could see as plain as day that it was a bad decision. Apologists for the Bush Administration, and neoliberal ethics in general, now seem to regularly cite the Iraqi debacle as some sort of aberration "that shouldn't have happened".

The point being that a superpower (with whom we happen to be allied) is a dangerous entity when it just rolls along in its own interest - because it can.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 3:07:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Just out of interest, the U.S. fiscal situation doesn't seem to be making any headway out of its mire. Around five months ago government debt topped 15 trillion - which made headlines. As you can see in the link, it is now well on its way to 16 trillion (103.6 percent of annual GDP)
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 3:20:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There is nothing more difficult than trying to persuade someone of a viewpoint they have pre-determined they do not want to accept. This is abundantly clear when writers such as Mr Lewis concede that perhaps the US isn't perfect but really, they do mean well and they are surely better than (take your pick of sundry international enemies du jour).
Unfortunately such a view is as seriously flawed as the Americans own view of themselves encapsulated in the oft-quoted phrase of 'American exceptionalism'.
It is not just since WW2 that the US has been the chief purveyor of international violence, responsible for the deaths of well over 30 million people, as Blum and others have documented. The fact is the Americans have been killing people who get in their way ever since the first Pilgrims stepped ashore in the 17th century. Historians now consider the "settlers" to have been responsible for the killing of approximately 9 million native Americans, a genocidal program that even by today's cynical standards is still an impressive rate of killing.
Yet despite the evidence Mr Lewis and others like him continue to insist that it is in Australia's interest to be closely allied with such a monstrous history.
I agree with him that Iraq was a "mistake" but it was also much much more. It was a crime. The perpetrators of that invasion and occupation, which destroyed the most advanced nation in the Middle East, have entirely escaped culpability for their crimes. The US does not even recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court and brings enormous pressure to bear on any nation that seeks to try American citizens for crimes against international law.
Look at the world as it really is Mr Lewis and accept that Australia has the right and I would argue the duty to pursue a different path.
Posted by James O'Neill, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 6:48:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Despite being a small nation, Australia is and always has been imperial in its outlook - every bit as much as Britain and the US. We support these empire nations, not so much for dubious protection against some invader from somewhere, but because we are more comfortable in the company of imperial nations.

Australia began as an imperial colony and expanded its control of the continent through imperial plunder, land grants for 'worthy' imperial players, convict slavery, and a sustained policy of indigenous genocide. Except for a brief foray into social liberalism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries - mainly because the institutions that usually entrench a nation's inequalities were still in their infancy and thus easier to challenge - Australia has settled into a firmly entrenched imperial mindset that validates foreign aggression abroard and domestic rule for the rich at home.

No matter how much our imperial alliances and adventures - both economic and military - are exposed as dangerous, expensive and unutterably stupid, and no matter how much public opinion comdemns the path we are on, there is very little hope of Australia ever doing things differently. Those who support the status quo have plenty of established institutions and media outlets to support a well paid career path, while those who challenge it must make do with volunteering their precious time to raise awareness in a national debate that thoroughly excludes them.
Posted by Killarney, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 9:10:55 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Killarney said

"Those who support the status quo have plenty of established institutions and media outlets to support a well paid career path, while those who challenge it must make do with volunteering their precious time to raise awareness in a national debate that thoroughly excludes them".

First, i have no self-interest to support the staus quo. I am a stuggling academic who probably has minimal chance of getting a research job beyond again being a research assistant. I suspect this is because i speak my mind on a range of matters rather than building supposed expertise in one segment of the humanities. One academic opinion page publication also rejected an article because they did not want such an agressivetone towards China. Fortunately OLO, which i belive is better than our nesspaper sector, published the piece no questions asked.

Second, and this seems lost on critics of this article, I dont support the US because it is a great role model, although I do recognise that it alone has played a major security role for Western societies alone. When my best mates laughed at the attacks on New York in 2011 i went off my head and pointed out that this supposed flawed capitalist system run by the evil US also supportd his booming house prices given he was born in such a lucky time when mindless crdedit reliance ruled.

Third, i support the US because it is the leader of the Western world and i am worried that its decline, given that Europe is proving incapable of stepping up, will erode humanity's capacity to further promote democracy, pluralism, and so on.

Yes, US companies in Australia also have put pressure on its workers as my brother has told me, and the US has a lot of weird strategies with consequnces for a whole lot of people around the world, but i suspect things will get a whole lot harder for ordinary Aust's if say China's authoritarian state ever had the same influence.

I think recent current affairs speaks for itself. Some matters are more back and white.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 10:04:00 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris Lewis

"...booming house prices..." - Why is that a good thing? Yup, it takes both parents working to even get near owning a house and supporting a family.

Good ol' "mindless credit reliance."

Here's an interesting piece on America's not-so-booming house prices. Capitalism seems a tad flawed here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-24/aussies-lured-by-dirt-cheap-us-housing/3970128
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 10:18:33 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry Poirot.

It aint my style to sit back and bag the past. I will leave it the lefties who very often have no idea why certain polices, whether flawed or not, emerge. They just write righteous bulldust and mostly get it wrong.

Point is that many who that bag the system, including relatively wealthy lefty academics, also benefit from the system. Just ask the great man (Rudd) whose family has made considerable wealth from the privatisation of employment services alone yet he lectures us on the evils of unbrdidled capitalism. But hey, Rudd (and his like-minded readers, then salivated over how good his Monthly piece was attacking the past that he himself gained from.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 10:35:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well, Chris, if we are to judge the health of a society by how much profit is to be extracted from it, then I understand where you're coming from. Lots to be made from such a system.

Some of us nasty lefties question, for example, the modern day penchant/necessity to pour our infant population into day-long care while their pappy and mama are both out working to pay off inflated house debt and, more likely than not, also further fueling their reliance on mindless credit.

What was that saying about those who ignore the lessons of the past being condemned to repeat them?...never mind, it was obviously a leftie who said it.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 11:14:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Poirot,

I could have better worded my previous comment.

I also share concern about recent trends towards housing. You can see this with some of my prevsious opinion pieces.

Point is that i sincerely believe, rightly or wrongly, that liberal democracy is the best means of achieving the right balance, although I also recognise that there are many obstacles.

I have never seen a liberal demcracy as just being a server of capitalism. I believe that liberal democracy has many checks and balances that can temper the negative impulses of capitalism.

Maybe i am also a bit too optimistic, but i have seen nothing that will change my mind, at least thus far.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 12:16:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris,

The problem with our liberal democracies is that they have got out of hand and no longer serve the people. Since the Reagan/Thatcher revolution and the discarding of anti-trust or monopoly laws we have allowed corporations to get ever bigger and more powerful to the point we are at now where they have co-opted our governments and media and the people are ill informed and are powerless.

The wholesale privatization of public sector assets and activities, many inherently monopolistic in nature, plus the contracting out of labour has also pushed more power into the hand of big corporations.

The system is broken, perhaps beyond repair.

On another point: The US and the West govern according to an ideology, the neo liberal one, the pursuance of which is itself the goal. It's a belief system more than anything else and like Christianity, Islam and other outlooks/philosophies or whatever you call them, facts are either ignored or manipulated to comply with the preconceived views. China on the other hand look at the facts and adopt policies and actions to best deal with those.
Posted by kulu, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 3:52:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Kulu,

Interesting view.

I still think liberal democracies are best equipped to adapt,and still offer world leadership, although there will be still be mistakes.

As for China, it is indeed smart in terms of meeting its own interests, but it is merely exploiting the flaws of the international economy. More and more info aso reveals that China is making a lot of mistakes.

I do not think that an authoritatian state can offer much vision to the world long-term.

However, time will tell.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 4:07:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris:
When you are talking about a “liberal democracy”, are you talking about the Abbott led party or real liberal thinkers?
If you do mean the Abbott led party, then you are doing a bit of wishful thinking when they are the handmaidens of Capitalism.
The other point is that you and others tend to talk about “lefties” as if it is an affliction of even a curse when in fact even though I do not label myself as a leftie (or anything else for that matter), I do hold for principles of fair play and equality for all. I am not for small or even no tax for the rich, profit is everything and to hell with the weak and poor.
Our system has tended to give us rule by the corporations for their own benefits, brought about by “donations” to political parties to buy the desired result.
Posted by sarnian, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 4:16:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It is not logical considering the National Defence Authorisation Act,Patriot Act,legalised assassination and now attempted censorship of the internet.The USA is following China's model.

Why align ourselves with any totalitariarn country?
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 4:39:03 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chris,

I've posted this article before - not sure if you've seen it...but it's an interesting read.

http://www.newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2914
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 5:10:05 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I cannot believe some of the comments on this thread. Are all humans afflicted with selective memory or selective forgetfulness? Or do we just not think things through sufficiently before leaping in?

Do we all forget that China was backing communist North Vietnam, and we and others had a real concern at the possibility of a 'Domino Effect' in the expansion of Communism through to our front door? And, that it was China backing North Korea? And in the Malaya Campaign? And, how about Tiananmen Square and the Democracy movement?

As for Russia - it is far from spent, and doesn't have much of track record in human rights or its regard for its neighbours or other nations. Afghanistan, Chechnya, Siberia, Ukraine, etc.

We in Aus are small potatoes, and it is only by hiding in the skirts of the US, UK and Europe that has enabled us to have a RELATIVELY trouble free time getting on with our own interests. What, 23.5 million? If we wanted to go it alone, 103.5% even 200% of our GDP would hardly scratch the surface - we can't even prevent a few junk boats invading our territory.

Think it is a peaceful world? We've lost 32 in Afghanistan? And I don't remember how many in Iraq, but how many did we lose in Gallipoli? (Let alone in the rest of our overseas campaigns.)

We are currently a substantially Anglo society, by virtue of origins and history, and by virtue or our alliances. Capitalism and our form of democracy, and that of our major allies, may not be a perfect system, but it is way better than most of the current alternatives.

Want a major change in alliances? Better start learning Chinese, and learning how to be a coolie. (Who doesn't know when they're well off?)

Sure, there's a better system out there somewhere, but we can only suggest, hope the major powers will wake up before peak EVERYTHING, and look to our own failings before being too critical of others.
Posted by Saltpetre, Thursday, 26 April 2012 1:24:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Saltpetre,

1. I am more terrified of a drone strike in my back yard than I am of "communism" whatever that word means.

2. North Vietnam won the war and today we have a "communist" Vietnam that is no threat to anyone and as far as I know not subjugating its people as for instance are US supported dictatorships like Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the Egyptian military. (Cuba is another example of a "communist" regime that is no threat to anyone.)

I don't think anyone is saying China is a shining angel to whom we should attach ourselves - merely that we should detach ourselves from the very obviously not shining angel, the US
Posted by kulu, Thursday, 26 April 2012 1:12:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The U.S. is attempting to dominate the whole world using military force. Anyone who can't see this hasn't been paying attention.

There are other nations in the world who reject American imperialism as well they should. Australia should be one of them. America's warmongering is forcing an arms race which will eventually lead to WW3.

Is that what you war-lovers want, a nuclear war and extinction? Australia needs to divorce itself from the U.S. and declare itself neutral ASAP!

We live in an area of the world where the U.S. doesn't belong. We need to develop friends not create enemies!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 26 April 2012 2:03:25 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Poirot,

Very nice article, thanks,

Sort of similar sentiment to what i wrote in 2008 on OLO when i argued that the current cricis was not surprising given the difficulty of finding a perfect solution for international realtions or the internaitonal economy.

I wrote "Though the 2008 financial crisis is likely to promote greater government regulation and perhaps much greater public spending in time, this unfortunate situation is merely part of the ongoing and extremely difficult struggle of nations seeking to balance national and international considerations via freer trade.

As the recent financial crisis indicates, no group of nations (and their associated ideas) have ever proved capable of ensuring certainty and prosperity for the entire world".

I also like the last paragraph of the article you sent. Nobody, whether from the left or right, can dismiss hard facts about adverse trends. I just hope that Australia avoids turning in on itself as we make the necessary reform.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 26 April 2012 3:19:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
kulu,

"..detach ourselves from the very obviously not shining angel, the US."

Interesting; and who do you suggest we should then attach ourselves to, as the 'little brother'? Indonesia perhaps? Or should we, all 23.5 million of us, gear up to go it alone, and make a brave new world? (It might well be different if we were even 100 million, but alas.)

The US isn't perfect and has made a lot of mistakes, and I agree that we shouldn't follow them blindly, but we are a small fish in a very big and angry sea, so we need to hang on to powerful friends if we wish to ensure our freedom. You may disagree of course, but there are times when even a fallible (and possibly unscrupulous) friend is far better than no friend at all. (And we even share a common language.)

What loyalty does the WW2 Battle of the Coral Sea deserve, do you think?

David G,

"We live in an area of the world where the U.S. doesn't belong. We need to develop friends not create enemies!"

The US doesn't belong? That's a novel thought - particularly when our government has given approval for an expansion of the US presence on our territory. If the US is such a poor friend, who would you suggest? China?

Security is all about Intelligence and Preparedness. If we didn't have some powerful friends, who do you really think would take us seriously? In anything.
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 27 April 2012 12:47:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Saltpetre,

There are a number of nations not attached to any major power and they seem to do alright, absent US intervention. We can be one of those. We don't actually have to try and create an enemy of the US although they seem to do their best to create them for themselves God knows why.

Whatever America did for us in the Battle of the Coral Sea should be appreciated but its a long, long time ago and not relevant today. Today it is abundantly clear that it is intent on dominating the globe and its resources and is pursuing this goal with such myopic fervour that it's neglecting its own people and ruining its economy by wasting enormous amounts on the military industrial complex.

On top of this I belief society should strive to achieve socially just and environmentally sustainable outcomes and not domination the worlds resources in a win lose scenario. Neither goal is attainable anyhow.
Posted by kulu, Friday, 27 April 2012 8:07:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“What loyalty does the WW2 Battle of the Coral Sea deserve, do you think?”

Well if we are going to go that far back, I seem to remember that Russia was an ally at that stage of the game and we could not do enough for them.
Posted by sarnian, Saturday, 28 April 2012 10:16:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Looking far off into the future, what are the prospects for Aus?

i) A dessicated treeless dust bowl with a tiny green tinge around the edges where a still tiny population huddles in highrise apartments gasping for breath, as adjacent industry continues to run on coal-fired electricity, producing a new line of widgets (and possibly with English as an optional second language); or

ii) A green continent, a massive food bowl, dotted with massive solar powered generators, each at the centre of a satellite city based on greenhouse agriculture and high-tech industries, desalinating sea water pumped from the coast and recycling everything - water, waste - with manageable population growth aligned with sustainable capacity, and exporting organically grown food, and bio-fuel based on algae, to Europe, UK and US, and maybe even to China and Russia?

How we get to one of those potential futures is up to us, to what we decide today and tomorrow. Ditching our current close alliances might still get us to the far more attractive second option (or similar), but almost assuredly with another nation pulling the strings and controlling everything.

As China continues on its path towards self-sufficiency based on investments in Africa, South America and segments of the Pacific Basin (including in Aus), and develops stronger ties with both Russia and the Middle East, AND continues to produce widgets faster and cheaper than we ever could, where do we want to see ourselves in the distant global landscape? A pawn, or a player? A patchwork of holes in the ground feeding a string of ships heading for far-off ports and a puzzled look on our faces when only rock is left? Or a smart Lucky Country working with like-minded nations to build a better and sustainable world?

Bring on world peace and universal sustainability, but in a manner in which we are a full participant and not left out in the cold.
Posted by Saltpetre, Saturday, 28 April 2012 1:51:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy