John J, in addition to Socrates I also read modern history. Joseph Stalin was an atheist ... ditto many other monsters. Does that make an atheist guilty of harm? No. And does a Christian perspective imply complicity in such? No. But Christianity teaches that we need to seek forgiveness and reconciliation for our own failings, and forgive those who harm of offend us. Better than using a public forum to sling off at others, I would have thought.

Cuz, the trouble with Christianity -- and any other religion -- is exactly the same as the trouble with Stalinism: the believer's assessment of reality are based on the wishes and beliefs of an individual, rather than empirical evaluation of evidence from the external world. When that individual has control over bombs, guns, troops and explosives we get gulags, pogroms, persecution and bloodshed.

If you believe you're in direct communication with God, then how can you possibly condemn people like Joseph Kony, Osama Bin Laden or Ayatollah Khamenei who believe exactly the same thing? You think you're right and they think they're right: but if you both deny the capacity of empirical investigation to uncover the truth, how can you expect a mere atheist like me find a hair's-breadth of difference between you?

Jon J, atheism has killed more people in the 20th century than Christianity could even be accused of. Most of the wars last century weren't in pursuit of religion at all and killed more people than any, and possibly all, wars previously.

To argue that there is a problem with Christianity because some Christians kill is as ridiculous as arguing there is a problem with medicine because some doctors kill, or democracy, because some democrats kill, or parenthood, because some parents kill.

I don't think David is claiming a direct line to God, and even if he did the God he would claim a direct line to forbids killing. So anyone who claims God told them to kill, as Khomeini or bin Laden might claim, is dialling a wrong number as far as David and his beliefs are concerned.

Graham
'Most of the wars last century weren't in pursuit of religion at all and killed more people than any, and possibly all, wars previously.'

That doesn't mean it was the 'fault' of atheism. There have been no wars done in the name of atheism or suicide bombers for an atheist cause. George Bush declared it was God who told him to invade Iraq and indeed many conflicts throughout history where religion was used as a divisive tool. The Middle East is a religiously influenced conflict (albeit the issues go much deeper).

It cannot be denied that religion has sometimes fanned the flames of hatred (even if not the cause), such as in the Irish conflict, no matter the origin of that hatred.

What is disheartening is we are all trying to outdo each other on 'blame' instead of being more tolerant of differing spiritual paths. It is the outcome that matters not the vehicle by which it is delivered. It is quite reasonable to accept that the loving and more compassionate tenets are (as Dawkins puts it) not owned by religion and are indeed values shared by theists and non-theists alike.

It is simply not what one says that matters but rather what one does.

forgive my light-heartedness...quote..""Mary hangs back
and has the more dramatic experience,..the first face-to-face encounter
with the risen Jesus..
*in the garden..*around the tomb.""

and you were there !
on the day...!

and it was closed*
of the same elite/creed..that killed him..[no patterns forming>?]

""My Easter moment...came..*at the garden tomb,
an alternative site..?...outside the city walls;

a simple hollow..in a rock
within a carefully maintained garden..
Curiously the garden...*is closed on a Sunday morning!

""The gate was indeed locked,
but around the corner,..below the cliff face,..is a public bus station.""

rejoice!
he has arisen
time jumped...onto a buss..to that day

had you jumped the fence
you too might have met him

""Crucifixion generally happened..on busy roads
so all should see and be intimidated by the horrific scene of slow, agonising death and subsequent decay.

But in place of the horror..!
was a strange reassurance:..""

lol
why ya think its closed..to goys..on their most sacred day?
they wont give aid nor comfort..to 'the ennamy'

That was an informative Easter reflection, David Cusworth. Thanks.

As for the combox debate, I declare science as being more responsible for war and death than anything else. After all, science created the atomic bomb!