Hi Yabby,

Well, I hope that Dawkins gets beyond this infantile point-by-point demolition of superstitions and magic and oral history accounts of miracles, to delve deeper into why people need religion in the 21st century (or much earlier) at all.

I think I was pre-occupied with that point-by-point stuff in primary and secondary school, until it vaguely occurred that not much of that mattered to believers anyway, and that the real issues involved why anybody felt a need to believe in magic, superstitions, miracles, witch-burning and so on, in a booming, crass, obviously-science-oriented, modern world.

Then, over the last ten or fifteen years, it became obvious also that much of the world craved to stay in a pre-modern frame of mind. It hated the modern world. It wanted to get back into the womb of 'innocence'. And so, this grotesque confluence of Green and Muslim, both craving to crawl back into the deepest recesses of Plato's cave.

Question to the AFA: do you have much involvement from the Greens ? Just curious.

Cheers,

Joe

"It looks as though you are classifying atheists as some form of downtrodden, disadvantaged group, constantly under threat from "bigots"."

Um I explicitly made a point that _many_ atheists feel this way even tho you may not and simply deny it exists. The convention and experiences coming from people speaking out are testament to this occurring.

"Social banishment for atheists? Maybe in your imagination, but certainly not in my world."

No not in your world, I accept that, mainly because you probably don't hang out on forums and groups that are supporting those dealing with issues. I can give you just some personal examples not a problem, I could also go into the myriad of parents I have spoken too via the FIRIS campaign, including those of other faiths with exactly the same issues from religious privilege in society.

I just moved to QLD recently, before that I ran a local business in a regional area of Victoria, dealing with a service industry in part to many business, mainly in the tourism industry. Via the AFA I met others in the same rural area, other business having a hard time for exactly the same reasons I was. The christian groups in the small towns know who goes to church and who doesn't, who is a believer and who isn't.

Especially in the tourism sector, business would band together to support each other, but being a known non-believer? No one would refer business on your way, you were always made second class within the community, even within the local business groups.

I have seen 2 business running on shoestrings because of this very issue, and one woman so at the end of her tether she has spent evenings in tears speaking to me not knowing what to do because no business in the town (70km from where I lived) referred people on to her. She was even considering pretending to have a 'conversion' just to stay afloat. She ended up selling her accommodation because of it and has literally dropped from sight :(

We band together because we need too.

*Well, I hope that Dawkins gets beyond this infantile point-by-point demolition of superstitions and magic and oral history accounts of miracles, to delve deeper into why people need religion in the 21st century (or much earlier) at all.*

Joe, I fully agree with you. Dawkins is no fool but he'll still have
Pell to deal with and have to address his questions. Pell will no doubt
take the church line, ie, without us interpreting what god
really thinks, you'd all be a pack of heathens killing each other.

He'll completely bypass the the question of empathy having evolved
for good evolutionary reasons, for of course the Catholic Church
retains its powers, by convincing mega millions from childhood, that
only they are in touch with God himself, so the rest of us should
take notice.

Sadly the Catholic Church retains its powers, because there are still
so many poorly informed individuals out there. As far as I am concerned,
they are the biggest pack of snakeoil salesmen which
ever existed, all financed by tax free money

Tony - you say that most atheists don’t go around raping, killing and plundering, and I would agree that is correct. But your statement implicitly concedes that some people who are atheists do do these things. I presume you think those atheists who do those sort of things are doing wrong – my question to you is, on what basis are you able to state that what they do is wrong?

Yes, you have your preference that they not do those things but if their preference is to behave that way, why should your preference prevail over theirs?

Yabby – It may the case that apparent examples of empathy have been observed in primates, but it has to be asked, so what? How do you justify the leap from the observation of primates displaying empathy to saying that humans ought to be empathetic? You can’t derive an “ought” from an “is”.

JP,

You don't seem to grasp that humans are social beings who congregate in communities. They share communal interests and evolve their moralities from the machinations within that model. Things that are deemed "wrong" violate the accepted standards of the community.

Empathy is a principal human emotion. Without it human [primates] would experience fundamental and catastrophic developmental and behavioural deficits (as in those with classic (low-functioning) autism).

Simply staggering, woot.

>>...but being a known non-believer? No one would refer business on your way, you were always made second class within the community, even within the local business groups<<

Here we are, in a free and democratic country, it is 2012, and you are telling us that your business failure is down to your being an atheist.

My deepest sympathy goes out to you in your time of religious trial, as I am sure does that of every other atheist reading these words. Such shameful, callous persecution against an individual's beliefs has no place in a just and tolerant Australia.

No wonder you feel the need to band together and sound off against religion.

But tell me - what remedies can you expect, that will assist you against these forces of evil that are aligned against you?

Just curious.