The Neo Cons in the West want the Russian base out of Syria.Syria is also an ally of Iran which Israel wants to invade under more lies.

While Russia and China are no angels,nor are the Western Imperialists who want to control all the oil on the planet.I see Russia and China as a good counter balance to the BMIC ( Banking Military Industrial Complex)

This is all about a few Western Oil Companies controlling even more oil.Having more oil in fewer hands makes the price more expensive for us.We want more diverse ownership of oil to keep prices lower.

Arjay,

Please take the blinkers off and look beyond the square - it serves no-one any good to have continuing conflict in Syria, or anywhere else in the middle east.

The problems in Egypt and Libya aren't settled either - and really require urgent international assistance (as a matter of priority!) to hold free and fair elections and establish stability and democratic government. (Though perhaps you don't think democracy offers the best way to achieve equity, stability and a fair go for all?)

People are dying, and that is the priority, but having Egypt and Libya still in turmoil sets a pretty poor example - and if anything reinforces Assad's tenacity.

Regarding oil: Perhaps it would help if the international community (through the UN) was to make a commitment to guarantee maintenance of the sovereignty of borders and resources of all of these troubled nations - as a sign of genuine goodwill and support.

Assad must also fear an end like Qaddafi or Mubarak, so it might help if the international community declared its hand now - trial for crimes against humanity, or possible leniency for an immediate cessation of hostilities. Pressure, with an open hand.

Security Council: The big four (Russia, China, US and EU) need to get their heads together and sort out a solution, a pact, something to enable them to put real pressure on Assad (and the military juntas in Egypt and Libya). No-one wants military intervention, but the failure of the SC to form a united front is playing into Assad's hands, and allowing the situation to become increasingly reckless and unstable. Only they can stop things getting way out of hand.

Arjay & Saltpetre,
Better call & tell Kim Sattler there're some Syrians in a restaurant down the road.

Let's get this straight.This in not about saving the Syrian people.The people of Zimbabwe needed saving many times but oil could not be found in or near their country.

Both the CIA and Mossad agents are stirring trouble in Syria.Webster Tarpley who was there late last yr reported on snipers killing people at random thus causing chaos.They were not Assad snipers.Why would Assad destabilise his own regieme?

This is about the Russian base and Iran's support of Syria.Syria does also have some oil.Israel has at least 200+ nukes and the means to deliver them,while Iran has yet to develop one.Why are not there weapons inspectors in Israel? Israel is far more dangerous than Iran.

The invasion of Iraq was a lie,(there were no WMD's) and so will be the invasion of Iran.

Putin with good reason regretted not stopping the invasion of Libya.Both Russia and China are standing up to Western aggression with good reason.We don't have the capacity for a long conventional war.We are broke,have almost no manufacturing base,a dermoralised military and a public becoming aware of the financial treachery being enacted upon them.

The West will precipitate a serious nuke war if we don't wake up and stop it.Russia and China are just reacting to our aggression.

Syria, like most conflicts, is not one between "good guys" and "bad guys." It is the bad guys versus the bad guys with everyone else caught in the middle..

We all recognise that Assad is one of the bad guys.

Those who think the Free Syria Army (FSA) are the good guys may be interested in this piece from the BBC.

SYRIA'S SLIDE TOWARDS CIVIL WAR

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16984219

Quotes:

>>The [FSA] commander near Qusayr told me they were fighting for all of Syria's religions and sects: Christian, Muslim, Alawite, Sunni, Druze, Shia.

[…]

But his next words left no doubt, either, that for many, this is a religious - and Islamic - struggle against the secular Baath regime.

"For the first time," he went on, "we are able to proclaim the word of God throughout this land.">>

And:

>>To explain, they [FSA] showed me a film taken from the mobile phone of a captured Shabiha. Prisoners lay face down on the ground, hands tied behind their backs. One-by-one, their heads were cut off.

The man wielding the knife said, tauntingly, to the first: "This is for freedom."

As his victim's neck opened, he went on: "This is for our martyrs. And this is for collaborating with Israel.">>

End Quotes:

There are other aspects to this conflict.

--Partly it is sectarian.

--Partly it is Saudi proxies fighting Iranian proxies. Assad has, in effect, become an Iranian puppet.

--It is already spilling over into neighbouring Lebanon where Sunnis and Alawites are beginning to fight each other. (Syrian massacres jolt north Lebanon, http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Article.aspx?id=162878#axzz1mgxY8CDV)

Do we really want to get involved in this caldron?

The only sane course of action is to avoid involvement in any shape, manner or form.

Isn't it best to move in, than to watch from the outside. Russia and China are content for them to self destruct. Sounds like there is a lot of the old regime still in Russia.
Arjay is happy to sit on the fence and watch Rome burn.

Arjay

'The people of Zimbabwe needed saving many times but oil could not be found in or near their country.'

I agree with the rest of what you say about the West's and Ms Bishop's fake henny-pennying over Syria.

However, be careful of applying selective scepticism to the West's long history of destabilisation and propaganda campaigns against other countries. In many ways, the Zimbabwe regime has been similarly demonised by machiavellian Western interests as has Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Serbia and others.

If you are interested, here are a couple of links to articles - both by Greg Elich - that give a different point of view on Zimbabwe than the one we are used to:

The battle over Zimbabwe's future
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5373

Zimbabwe's struggle for justice
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=160

Mankind is such a dismal failure, I wish God would reveal Himself and tell us all to wake up or face the consequences. Either that, or for someone to prove conclusively that there is no God, so all the religious infighting could stop - but being as it is, mankind would just come up with some other excuse to kill and enslave each other. We are hopeless, full of delusions of grandeur and an insatiable drive for conquest. God is either laughing or tearing His hair out. The 21st Century is shaping up to be to be an absolute shocker.

If it weren't for oil (and a small modicum of common sense and restraint) the nukes would probably be flying left and right already, no questions asked.

I mostly pity all the animals and plants which have suffered, and will undoubtedly continue to suffer at the hands of mankind. What purpose can all this destruction in the name of development serve? Why can't people see all the beauty and promise which is being destroyed, and for no sound purpose, save ego. Not very enlightened, and in fact shameful. Religion? It's been hijacked, misused and abused, and I wish to hell it didn't exist - unless it be solely to honour and serve the land, water, air, environment.

Maybe it is time to write them off, those who insist on holy wars (under any guise), and let them kill each other off (but without nukes). The world could only be better off.

Population control - Bring it On!! (And, the day Iran gets nukes you can kiss sanity good bye.) Human Rights? We're rushing to get every hellish thing we deserve - at least the arrogant and belligerent are, and good riddance.

Aus may be wise to keep schtum, and stay well clear. The volcano is ready to erupt, and we only have rubber booties.

Our potential saviour? A viable alternative to crude oil (eg bio), and no nukes, anyywhere. (Plus strict pop control.) Failing this, the chips will fall - it's only a matter of time.

Saltpetre,

On the subject of "where does mankind go from here?". The planet earth runs quite a pernicious line in "correction" from time to time. Species evolve and then diminish.

Homo sapiens has proved rather a formidable protagonist - yet he was erroneously titled. He is not wise - only clever.

<<The only sane course of action is to avoid involvement in any shape, manner or form>>

Yes indeed, couldn't agree more.

Things are not as clear cut as most of the media would have us believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTZ5BILksM&NR=1&feature=endscreen

579 wrote:

>>Isn't it best to move in, than to watch from the outside>>

What do you mean by "move in?" Do you mean "the West," whatever that means these days, should occupy the country? That did not work to well in Iraq and is failing in Afghanistan.

>>Russia and China are content for them to self destruct>>

Syria seems set to self-destruct. Like Pakistan it looks increasingly like a failed state waiting to implode. I don’t think there is anything we or anybody else can do about it.

C'est la guerre.

Saltpetre wrote:

>>Maybe it is time to write them off, those who insist on holy wars (under any guise), and let them kill each other off (but without nukes). The world could only be better off.>>

LOL,

Maybe you should say:

Thank you Israeli Air Force for destroying Assad's nuclear ambitions.

Imagine how much more serious the position would be if the Assad regime had access to nuclear weapons.

Now the question is what does the world do about Pakistan's nukes when, not if, but when, that state finally implodes.

I'm guessing that the Americans and the Indians have developed plans to seize Pakistan's nukes when the time comes. They'll be helped by Pakistan's endemic corruption. The Americans could possibly arrange with corrupt officials to buy Pakistan's nukes as they did in South Africa.

No way were the Americans going to let Muammur Gadaffi's good friend, Nelson Mandela, get control of South Africa's nuclear arsenal.

Hi Ms Bishop,

I know it's formal ... but so many people, especially in our media, indulge in informality to such a degree it has come to undermine respect for our polies. I know I'm old fashioned ... and please don't use my non-de-plume if you wish to respond to me. You can address me as Mr Imajulianutter. (tehehe)

I understands that to assess politic's in the mid east according to religious bent, particularly Islamic politics, can cause false perceptions and outcomes ... but with the current 'Arab Spring' and the overthrow of the left leaning Shia and Iranian backed Arab dictatorships won't there need be an eventual re-assessment of the west's relationship with the now newly Sunni dominated Arab states?

Have your team assessed how these states, as they lose the shia dominance and the Iranian influence, are likely to engage with the west and Israel?

It appears to me that Shia dominated Hamas in both Lebanon and Gaza appear to be moderating their rhetoric and isolationist stances. Is it possible they understand something the west hasn't yet noted?

I also think Israel's determination to up the ante against Iran and Iran's reluctance or inability to use it's influence in Lebanon and Gaza for 'retribution' against Israel for the recent series of clandestine terror attacks in Iran point to a major re-alignment ... somewhere?

Please understand I am not a raging leftie but I do support the Palestinians quest for nationhood ... stridently.
I hate no-one.
I also think Australia needs a major re-think of our policy toward Israel. While holding that view I do not advocate abandoning Israel to the tender mercies of Hamas or an inevitably nuclear armed Iran. I do think Israel is stretching the boundaries of our friendship.

Graham has my e-mail address if you wish to address my questions in greater detail than space here may allow.

Let's say we let NATO invade Syria and then let Israel attack Iran.Iran is no pushover.Even Zbigniew Brezezinski says it is insanity to attack Iran.They have a disclosed 150,000 missiles plus other military capacities with China and Russia backing them.If Julie Bishop thinks attacking Syria or Iran under the facade of freeing their people will bring peace,then this is folly of the highest order.

The price of oil will treble and our economies collapse.Is this what Julie Bishop wants to appease this insanity of Zionism?

We warned the US of an impending attack of Japan at Pearl Harbour which was ignored.Japan went to war because the West tried to restrict the supply of oil and their trade.Japan was too successful for the Western Oligarchs to tolerate their success.The Western Oligarchs (BMIC) wanted to control the planet as it does today.

Both China and Russia have now drawn a line in the sand.They know we are both industrially and morally weak.So choose,creativity or destruction.

Arjay,

Syria produces less than 1/2% of the world's oil, so a NATO led strike would hardly have much more effect than is happening now.

Secondly given that most of the population is trying to rise up against Assad, and the only thing keeping him in power is his army with heavy weapons, a concerted air and drone assault would swing the balance against him.

As for Iran, the article is not about Iran.

Shadow Minister.As I've stated before Syria is a close ally of Iran.It is their way of weakening Iran and getting rid of the Russian Naval Base.

Killarney thanks for the link on Zimbabwe on Global Research.Zimbabwe has $ trillions in Gold reserves and heaps of platinium.Last yr they produced $200 million of gold.China is now giving them money for development.You were right,the West is also destabalising Zimbabwe.

Note also Gaddafi was in the process of initiating a gold based currency to bring stability and wealth to Africa.Libya had 130 tonnes of gold and quite a bit of oil which Western oilcompanies now own.

Zibigniew Brezezinski said that there is now a "Global Political awakening." The internet now gives us access to the truth.No more wars,no more deceptions to initiate wars and give the people true democracy instead of this present de-mock-racy.

Thanks Arjay, your facility for over-simplification is always entertaining.

Perhaps none of us here have any real idea of how incredibly complicated and far-reaching the struggle in Syria may be, unless we happen to be Syrian. In addition to a secular-vs-theocratic contest (which fragments into local-Arabist ['democratic'] vs pan-Arabist ['Baathist'] vs religious contests, and nationalist vs Shi'ite [including pro-Iran] vs Sunni [including pro-Saudi, pro-al-Qaida]), there are all manner of external interests, each with perhaps little control over what is going on in the ground - Iran vs Saudi being the most prominent.

But Turkey, Israel and other Arab countries all have some stake in the outcome, and beyond them of course the US, the EU, Russia and China. And that's probably only what's on the surface. The bottom line is that it is not either-or, as in Arjay's simple universe.

So everything from tribal-local right up to the international scale. I hope that Ms Bishop is aware of these complexities.

Of course, it is intolerable that a semi-fascist dictatorship should be able to bombard its own cities and murder its own citizens. Ultimately, I suspect that there will be either a ragged and messy descent into a ghastly regional war, or a very delicately arranged international settlement.

Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall at that conference of Iran, Pakistan (?!) and Afghanistan ? Did they discuss Syria, and perhaps something about nuclear weapons ?

" .... going on, ON the ground .... " of course.

Loudmouth wrote:

>>Perhaps none of us here have any real idea of how incredibly complicated and far-reaching the struggle in Syria may be, unless we happen to be Syrian>>

I doubt if even most Syrians appreciate the complexities. They are mind-boggling.

>>Of course, it is intolerable that a semi-fascist dictatorship should be able to bombard its own cities and murder its own citizens.>>

True.

But if you help the Free Syrian Army (FSA) topple the regime how do you plan to stop them slaughtering the Alawites and Christians?

>>Ultimately, I suspect that there will be either a ragged and messy descent into a ghastly regional war, or a very delicately arranged international settlement.>>

My money is on the former - a dreadful civil war that spills over into Lebanon and also involves Saudi proxies fighting Iranian proxies.

>>But Turkey, Israel and other Arab countries all have some stake in the outcome,..>>

From the Israeli perspective peace, if it were attainable, would be the first prize. Since peace is unattainable chaos in the neighbouring Muslim world is a reasonable consolation prize. There is no denying that Israel benefits from a Syrian, and possibly Lebanese, descent into bloody civil war.

But that does NOT mean I suspect Israel of engineering the situation. Even if they wanted to I think engineering the sort of catastrophe that now seems inevitable would be beyond Israel's capabilities.

On the other hand, just as Iran and Syria have supported proxies such as Hizbollah to fight Israel so I would expect Israel to provide covert support to whichever side appeared to be losing with a view to keeping the conflict going for as long as possible. If your enemies are bent on self-destruction the sensible thing to do is to help them along.

The same thing concerns me in this case as did in the case of Libya. Political leaders in the west are condemning violence and calling for peace. They're not necessarily helping out, but they are taking sides. Apparently the only way forward for Syria is for the regime to topple. This is quite possibly true, though - as has already been pointed out - Libya and Egypt are hardly shining examples of 'moving forward'. Similarly, peace can (apparently) be achieved by stopping the supply of arms to Assad's forces. No mention of simultaneously ceasing supply to his opponents.

As for Assad himself, well, he needs only look at the fates of Gaddafi and Mubarak to see that he might as well go down with guns blazing. One was 'accidentally' killed while trying to flee, and the other eventually caved and did the right thing (stand down), and is now facing possible execution. Not much incentive to play fair.

Otokonoko wrote:

>>As for Assad himself, well, he needs only look at the fates of Gaddafi and Mubarak to see that he might as well go down with guns blazing.>>

Yep.

Assad has no choice but to hang on to the bitter end. With the help of his allies in Iran and Iraq that bitter end may be longer in coming than most people in the "West" think. In the mean time, of course, Syria will be destroyed, Lebanon may experience a growth in sectarian violence and may even tip over into another civil war. The mistrust between the Sunni gulf states led by Saudi Arabia and a sort of Shia – Alawite axis in Iran, Iraq and Syria will grow deeper.

Turkey too may find itself pulled into the conflict.

And if I'm wrong and Assad is toppled, there is likely to be a slaughter of Syrian Christians and Alawites that could draw Iran and Iraq directly into the conflict. Meanwhile a weakened Hizbollah may find itself under attack in Lebanon.

This has all the makings of a giant calamity.

As I said in my previous post, for Israel peace is first prize; but if peace is unattainable seeing your enemies tear each other apart will have to do.

You're right Steven, and what will Hamas do, support Iran and Assad, or support their fellow-Sunni ? If Assad looks too shaky, and Iran and Iraq intervene to protect him (with Iraq's Kurds on the Sunni side of the civil war), will civil war spread through Lebanon to Palestine as well ? And perhaps to Iraq again ?

As you also say, if the Sunni prevail and start launching massacres of Shia, Alawite and Christians, sending refugees off in all directions, will many of the Christians (and Lebanese Christians in due course) seek refuge in Israel, Jordan and Palestine ?

Further down the track, will Iraq split into a Shia-majority area and a Sunni (Arab and Kurd) area - or even into three ? Or maybe just one, as the Saudis absorb western Iraq and Iran absorbs eastern and southern Iraq, leaving the Kurds on their own, and to the tender mercies of Turkey ?

Iran seems to be fighting a proxy battle already in Bahrain, while the Saudis fight theirs in Syria (and Iraq). If Iran faces defeat in Syria, will it try to launch diversionary attacks on Israel and perhaps Saudi Arabia ? Will Turkey break its alliance with Iran to support the Sunni in Syria, and also launch diversionary attacks on Iraq ?

Seems like 1300 AD all over again :(

Arjay,

Zimbabwe is bankrupt, it has close to zero reserves, and is getting by on diamonds, its platinum and gold production has fallen to an all time low, and Zim cannot even support its own independent currency.

Syria is using heavy weapons against its own civilians, as did Libya.

Iran would be stupid to get involved in the conflict, as it only recently managed to violently put down its own civilians, and would not like to light that fire again.

Loudmouth,

They're all excellent questions but I do not have any excellent answers.

I think the Turks will have the sense to remain on the periphery. Erdogan is a bit of a hothead but he and his party have to face the Turkish electorate from time to time. I doubt said electorate would reward them for involving Turkey in a Middle-Eastern war.

Hizbollah may be the big loser here.

Hamas can probably count on some support from Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood has gained influence. However I suspect the Egyptians will be more concerned about the increasingly parlous state of their own economy than in becoming embroiled in another Middle-Eastern conflict.

Iraq could split. In fact arguably it already has split with a Kurdistan in the north.

I think Sunni-Shia and Shia-Shia sectarian violence could re-ignite in the rest of Iraq. Iraq could become yet another battleground in the Saudi – Iranian proxy war.

The Jordanians will try and stay out of it. I do not know whether they will succeed.

The Israelis will enjoy the show and provide discreet help to any side that looks like fading. It is in their interest to keep any intra-Muslim conflict going for as long as possible.

A bit of history. During the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s the Israelis provided the Iranians with spare parts for their air force. That was not because the Israelis favoured the Iranians. They just wanted to prolong the war for as long as possible and, beside, the Iranians were paying top dollar.

The Iranians will continue to inflame Shia in Bahrain and in the Eastern provinces of Saudi Arabia.

And Pakistan will continue to support various dissident groups in Iran. That's another aspect of this. Iran is also engage in a proxy war with Pakistan.

And then again, against the odds, everyone might pull back from the brink.

Who knows?

Shadow Minister,the ordinary people of Zimbabwe may be broke,but those ripping the tonnes of gold out are not.

No more wars.Stay out of Syria and let them sort their own problems out.Isn't the West broke enough without more wars that will drive us deeper into poverty?

The missing ingredient in all these pass-the-port armchair analyses of how the ME is supposedly tearing itself apart is the 'S' word.

Syria, Iran, Zimbabwe, the former Yugoslavia and the former Jamihariya regime in Libya are/were run along semi-socialist lines, and socialist regimes almost always support a non-aligned foreign policy. Thus, a decades-long process of economic isolation through sanctions and embargoes, and diplomatic isolation through constant demonisation of the ruling regime, ultimately creates a perfect cocktail of social unrest designed to bring those countries to their knees.

Because all embattled, isolated regimes have to deal with hostility from without and within, and very real economic decline, it's inevitable that they become paranoid and repressive, often turning on their own citizens - and not without good reason. Opportunism among internal opposition groups leads to Faustian pacts with superpowers who provide them with everything from international media canonsiation to weaponry, which in turn increases their sense of invincibility and matyrdom.

Inevitably, the old regime is overthrown and (for now) the invincible opposition becomes the new regime. And it all starts again. Even the decline of the superpower of the day does little to bring peace, once the damage is done.

For now, we're relaxed and comfortable here in Oz, but if we ever go down the socialist/non-aligned path, this will be the fate that awaits us too. The dismissal of the Whitlam government was a warning that every Australian government has heeded ever since.

Killarney,you are pretty well right, especially about the former Arab socialist dictatorships.

However in the current changes in the mid east no-one in any super or not so super power (Including Iran)supports the rising Islamic majority Parliaments. The haven't received support, are not likely to ... on current western and other power policy and they only owe their own people for their rise and success.

That is the major departure from the past.

It seems democracy in the mid-east has produced what the people want and not what some manipulative controlling outside power wants. ie It has produced Islamic (Sunni) democratic governments.

Israel is no longer in the game ... they are being rapidly sidelined ... and completely out of step with their newly democratic neighbours.

While we continue our current overly supportive policies towards Israel and don't re-assess our relationships with the new Arab democracies then we too will be sidelined... and will miss the developing trading possibilities.

I maintain we must adjust our policy towards all countries in the mid east

Killarney,

Perhaps you're right - pseudo-socialist regimes seem to inevitably turn fascist, first against sections of their own people, then all of their own people, then maybe if they are able, against any weak neighbour.

That's all true. But it is also true that Uncle Tom Cobbley and all in the region will want to stick their oar in.

And there seem to be waves, or levels, of potential interference - firstly, Iran and Hezbollah and Lebanese Sunni; then Saudi proxies, al-Qaida, Israel and Turkey; then Iraq (Sunni, Shi'ite and Kurds) and very much against its will, Jordan; then maybe Iran and Saudi Arabia on a more formal level; then God knows who. The wave may even extend to Central Asia, through Afghanistan.

And then there is Pakistan.

Imajuliannutter,"...Israel no longer in the game..." They are currently holding the West to ransom with their 200+ nukes and their mad dog attitude towards Iran.Israel is the biggest threat to world peace and have far too much power over the USA.

Gough Whitlam was sacked primarily because he tried to get loans from the Oil rich Arabs ie Kemlani loans affair.He went outside the influence of Western Banking and he had to go.Oil money actually has some of value backing it, not like our fiat counterfeiters,eg the US Federal Reserve.

The BRIC,Brazil,Russia,India,China may soon be joined by Japan,Iran and other Asian countries.The West that has no manufacturing will be left behind if we do not correct the debt based system of money creation and take control of our Govts.

Arjay,

I know people working in Zimbabwe, and mining production of gold is about 25% of where it was 20 years ago, and mostly marginally profitable.

PS, What democratic countries has Israel got as neighbours? Not Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon is only partially so.

Gold production is up from 8 tons in 2010 to 13 tons in 2011.I did not google other areas since gold looms large in a collapsing world economy.

'pseudo-socialist regimes seem to inevitably turn fascist'

Well, yes. But it's not an inevitability of socialism itself - more the obstacles to socialist states being free to run their own affairs in peace. Any country that turns socialist has to deal with the constant threat of destabilisation, violent overthrow and economic/political isolation. Living with that year in year out would turn anyone fascist.

'... no-one in any super or not so super power (Including Iran)supports the rising Islamic majority Parliaments.'

I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me that the endgame of the West's policies on the ME are to make the entire region over in Saudi Arabia's image - (sunni) theocratic, monarchist/dictatorial and pro-western. Despite all its bombast about fundie Islam and Al Qaeda, the West infintely prefers to deal with a theocracy over a socialist state.

As for the people of the ME, I imagine what they want is freedom from all the wars and coups and destabilisation of their countries after at least 100 years of hell since the Ottomans left the scene and the West proceeded to help itself. Yet time and time again, the road to semi-socialist, secular democracy has been brutally blocked by Western powers and traditional Isamists. I suspect the people of the ME are becoming resigned to Western-backed theocracy as the only path to peace.

Killarney.The West does not want peace.The BMIC (Banking Military Industrial Complex) make more money be destabilising economies and dragging through poverty.This is the way the British Empire has always operated.They don't want competition.The BRIC is about to change this.

They subjugate their own populations and keep most countries at a subsistance level via debt and corruption of their leaders.

Arjay,

Even at today's prices 13t of gold is about $1.5bn, hardly earth shattering.

Shadow Minister

You shouldn't believe everything you read. The official figures are all wrong. BMIC is secretly smuggling thousands of tons of gold out of Zimbabwe and hiding it in an underground vault in Nevada right next to Area 51.

Steven,

Yes, and they've been doing this since the end of the War. Why do you think those flying saucers were buzzing around there ? No wonder they won't let anybody see that Roswell guy, it's rumoured that he had a strange accounting-type device on him.

And of course, who's been bankrolling all of this ? Have you ever seen the faintest hint that involved the Swedes ? No. Clever b@stards.

Anon

Fairy Nuff.

What happened to Gaddifi's 130 tonnes of Gold which was $18.7 billion?They caught him,tortured him and murdered him.Why did he not stand trial?

Arjay wrote:

>>What happened to Gaddifi's 130 tonnes of Gold which was $18.7 billion?They caught him,tortured him and murdered him.Why did he not stand trial?>>

Arjay,

Don't be so naive.

Gadaffi is alive and well and living in Cape Town along with Elvis and Lord Lucan.

You of all people should know better than to take anything that appears in the media at face value.

Stevenlmeyer,you try to trivialise the reality.We saw Gaddfi's murder on video.They shot him and then raped him with the barrel of a gun then killed him.Did NATO not have any control of the lunatics of Al Qaeda origin whom they unleashed on the Libyian people?

Libya had oil, gold and an independant banking system which make the BMIC( Banking Military Industrial Complex) shake with uncontrolable lust.It had nothing to do with freedom of the people.

Arjay,

If NASA had the technology to fake a landing on the moon back in 1969 you can be sure that by now they have the capability of faking Gadaffi's death.

BTW did I mention that Osama bin Laden is also living in Cape Town?

I mean who do you think REALLY controls Al Qaeda?

Steven,

Yes and that's exactly what the Swedes WANT us all to think ........

Loudmouth

You have to hand to the Swedes, they are masters of deception. Almost no one knows SOG (Swedish Occupation Government) is the REAL ruler of the world.

SOG RULES

Förbannar dig, stevenlmeyer!

Våra planer har upptäckts.

Tack och lov, vi har fortfarande Abba.

Pericles,

Tio miljoner kronor per månad. Det är kostnaden för att säkra din hemlighet. Jag vidarebefordrar dig mina kontouppgifter.

(Tack google översätta)

Syria is a very tough call, and we don't know what Russia and China (and maybe Iran) may be threatening if direct intervention were to proceed - but, current escalations by the Assad regime provoke me to favour an ultimatum by NATO (US, UK and EU), (as previously intervened in Libya), to insist, with the approval of the Arab League, that either Assad cease and desist, or air strikes on armaments and strategic targets (including Assad himself) WILL follow forthwith.

At least such an ultimatum would force Russia and China to reveal their hand. (Are we revisiting a Cuban blockade scenario?) It would be a tough call on stretched NATO resources, but, short of provoking a total breakdown in international relations, it appears that the time has come to stand up and be counted - or else to risk relinquishing any semblance of responsible world order to another cold war. Surely Russia and China would wish to avoid such a damaging outcome, with the attendant loss of trade relations?

It's no longer a matter of who is going to blink first, but rather of what vision the major nations hold for the world and for future international relations - the 'real' bigger picture. A major test of trust, common interest, vision and humanity is at hand. We have to hope that sanity and goodwill prevails (or an end to cheap Chinese imports, and of major resources exports, may soon be at a store near you).

Surprise surprise,Stevenlmeyer and Pericles are zionist supporters.Now the original people of Israel and Jesus by environmental definition like the Paliatinians had brown skin.

How do we equate the reality of so many modern Jews in Israel,including their leaders having white skin? I'd suggest that the present conquered Muslim Palistinians would have more real Jewish ancestry than our present Khazars who are just Anglo pretenders to the throne of "The Chosen People"

Could these modern Jews be just Khazars who have assumed the mantle of "The Chosen people" just for convience?

It is again just a case of Anglo arrogance,which likes to link itself to the Egyptian and Roman Empires thus asuming the mantle of "Manifest Destiny" with no real substance to back it up? I think yes.The traditional Jewish religion has been hijacked by a powerful few,just like King Constantine (Roman Catholic Church) hijacked the Jesus philosophy for his advantage.

Arjay,

LOL

I guess this guy must also be a Khazar

http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1657075843/DrKamalGanzouri.jpg

What on earth did I do to upset you this time, Arjay?

>>Surprise surprise,Stevenlmeyer and Pericles are zionist supporters<<

Much as I admire your dedication to the very latest in conspiracy lunacy, Arjay, this one is probably a wasted brain cell too far.

>>Could these modern Jews be just Khazars who have assumed the mantle of "The Chosen people" just for convience?<<

The answer, unsurprisingly, is "no". And the evidence is in their DNA, most inconveniently for all the folk who relied upon facial characteristics and linguistics.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

I await the next fabrication with bated breath. Perhaps the one about Barack Obama being controlled by a reptilian alien might appeal to you?

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/02/21/obama-reptile-alien/

What the video doesn't tell you, of course, is that the alien speaks Swedish...

Om du berättar för någon, stevenlmeyer, jag kommer att be Abba ta min hämnd på dig.

Pericles,any elist group that measures their present importance by past genetic ancestry,has lost the plot.

In our society traditionally,people rise like cream because of their endeavour and creativity,not because of some illusionary "manifest destiny."

Dear Arjay,

No. Only religious Muslims believe that they are an elitist group ... everyone else are infidels - second class citizens - or worse; infidels who need to convert or, as often intoned, depart their mortal coil - quite violently.

Whilst rabbitting on about Israel, perhaps you should consider that there has been more death and blood spilt between - and within- Arab states than in conflict with Israel. To disabuse you of blaming Israel, these wars and internal blood-letting generally have been the result of differing Islamic theologies. Of course, we must not forget the poor Kurds.

But then again, politics (sort of) does enter into these conflicts. Remember the Palestinian Civil War 2006-2011, when Palestinians were desperately trying to exit the war zones - even to Israel and the west. Remember the fatwa handed down? Then there was Black September, the Lebanese Civil War ... one could go on.

One has to admit that when Islamic states get belligerent, which seems convulsively often, they do so with 'style'.

Danielle,

You are completely missing the point.

In Arjay-World, here is a Rock of Evil. It is called America.

Whatever wave beats up against the Rock of Evil, is thereby good.

All enemies of the Rock of Evil, America, are good.

The world is divided into four:

* the Rock of Evil and its Neo-Con supporters;

* astute observers such as Arjay;

and the rest of the world who are either

* puppets of the Rock of Evil,

* or freedom-fighters against it, such as Assad's soldiers,al-Qai'da (who temporarily seem ot be on the other side, but let's not worry about that), Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Gaddafi, Saddam, etc.

Here's thought for Arjay: what if many people, millions if not billions, actually can think for themselves and are happy to cry:

"A pox on both your houses!"

and in the forced choice that Life imposes on many of us, are also quite aware that there can be, and usually are, many forces far worse than the Yanks. It's a complex world, Arjay, with many Satans, and many, if not most, people know it and have to live with it.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Arjay,

The 'chosen people' Jews were 'chosen' to establish monotheism when people about them were sacrificing their infants, in flaming furnaces to multiple deities, etc. The Jews also (an iron age people) introduced the ten commandments - a not too bad social experiment, which has served the west - more or less - quite well, and found at the root of many laws. These commandments were extremely sophisticated considering the period in which they were formulated.

This is the only sense in which the Jews were 'chosen' Indeed any 'choseness' has been rather a poisoned challice.

You should also consider that Islam is a very new kid on the block. Indeed, what were the inheritors of Islam doing prior ...?

Dear Joe Loudmouth,

You are utterly, utterly correct. One gets tired of the continual sniping at the US.

When the US - Great Satan - withdrew its funds from UNESCO - which it is entitled to do - the entire organisation seemed to have collapsed. This indicates that the Great Satan was carrying the load. No recognition of the US's contribution has been made. It is about time that Arjay and his fellow conspirators gave the US credit for the good it has done. Yes, there have been mistakes - what governments don't make these. But the US has also contributed positively worldwide.

Leaving this bizarre discussion on "chosen-ness" aside for the nonce and returning to the topic at hand, can someone please explain to me why Australia or any other Western country should be getting involved in Syria?

This does not look like a fight between the "good guys" and the "bad guys."

It looks more like a fight between groups of bad guys with the ordinary guys, as ever, caught in the middle. And I don't see what we can do about it.

In fact so far as I can see any intervention will only make an appalling situation worse.

Thanks Danielle,

Actually I think that not only are there worse forces at work that the US in the Syrian Crisis: paradoxically there are also worse forces at work than the Syrian regime's: al-Qa'ida, for one, and its rival (why, is where it loses me) Muslim Brotherhood. And maybe many other weird and wonderful interests as well working their ghastly magic.

At the risk of pontificating - no, what the hell, I'll pontificate - Syria seems to be at the centre of a range of conflicting ideologies -every religious group against others, secular groups against religious, nationalist-fascist ideologies against religious ideologies (i.e. Arabist vs Islamist), liberal-democratic vs 'progressivist'-Marxist vs fascist-nationalist, Christian (Orthodox vs Maronite vs whatever) vs Druse vs Sunni vs Shi'ite vs Alawite.

Not to mention more long-standing disputes, tribe against tribe, valley against valley, town against country, left-handers vs right-handers, people with surnames starting with A-K versus those with surnames starting with L-Z, 'neighbour' against 'neighbour', everybody against witches, or so it seems.

And every 'neighbouring' power and its dog wants to ship in arms and fighters to keep the whole pot simmering. Including the US, Russia and China. This is nowhere as simple as Libya was.

Some problems don't have solutions, although eventually, after an enormous amount of blood-letting, and a war of attrition of all against all, somebody will crawl out of the ruins to claim victory. For a time.

No, the US is a bit-player in this one, Arjay. The ball is totally, dreadfully, in the court of the Syrian people and their 'neighbours'.

Loudmouth,

You sum it up very well.

It's a caldron.

Just to add to the volatility Iran and Saudi Arabia seem to be squaring off against each other in Syria.

The conflict shows signs of spilling over into Lebanon where there have already been skirmishes between Alawites and Sunnis.

The big winners are probably the Israelis. The more focused Israel's neighbours are on slaughtering each other the fewer resources they are able to devote to killing Jews.

The big loser could be Hizbollah. Will this Shia grouping be able to impose its will on the Sunnis and Christians and Druze if Iran and Syria are no longer in a position to keep it supplied with weaponry?

The possible weakening of Hizbollah is, of course, is another plus for Israel.

But I still want to know why Australia or any other Western country should get involved in this mess??

stevenlmeyer,

Yes, any intervention by Australia et al will only make things worse. As you and loudmouth have pointed out the situation is a mess of competing interests. Whether this is going to be a short term or indefinite conflict is anyone's guess. I suspect the latter.

Depending upon the outcome,it could result in great embarrassment for Australia if we became involved.

I am becoming exceedingly perplexed and conflicted over the whole of the middle east situation, and am trying very hard not to become a racist/religious bigot in trying to make sense of the whole convoluted mess.

I believe in live and let live, and in being a good neighbour, though I'm not too keen on turning the other cheek (if someone wants to harm me, then I'm going to retaliate in kind, albeit perhaps reluctantly). But the middle east seems to be almost a no-holds-barred, dog-eat-dog mess of hatred and counter-hatred, and completely alien to any sense of justice and decency.

On one hand innocents are gunned down or blown up, as opposing political forces go at each other - the 'for the people' mob against the 'nationalists', the haves vs have-nots, or one religious faction against another.

Then we see inflamed, manic groups going bananas over the burning of the Koran, a cartoon, or a woman without headscarf - as religious fervour and hysteria obviates sanity and any sense of tolerance or common decency. What is at the base of such strenuous emotions? Brainwashing is my guess, mass hysteria/delusion manufactured by some evil, demonic, deluded and self-interested religious fanatics (though they may consider themselves righteous and enlightened). There should be no place in free society for such bigotry, such evil.

We have some narrow minded sects in the West, but they are mostly about brotherly love, and certainly don't avow, let alone pursue, murder or beating of non-believers. If someone burns the bible, who's going to go on a rampage? Most of us will be more offended by the burning of the flag.

In Iraq things are going back to business as usual - dog eat dog. And in Afghanistan dog continues to turn on the hand that feeds.

Much as I may have compassion for the downtrodden in Syria, I don't know who to trust anymore. One thing I do know, is that I don't want any of this fanatical rubbish coming to Ausralia.

'... the middle east seems to be almost a no-holds-barred, dog-eat-dog mess of hatred and counter-hatred, and completely alien to any sense of justice and decency.'

Oh, really? The last 100 years or so don't leave the West smelling like a rose. WWI & II, the Russian revolution, the Cold War, the partition of Europe, the arms race, Vietnam, Korea, Northern Ireland, Chile, the Latin-American juntas, apartheid in South Africa, the break-up of Yugoslavia, the War on Terror. Not much 'justice and decency' in all of that. I doubt if we can find a single year over the last century in which the West has not been embroiled in some kind of catastrophic war somewhere on the planet.

Hi Killarney,

You might be right, but so what ? Where does that get the people of Syria ? This is 2012, not 1171 or 1453 or 1648, or even 1914.

Do the people of Syria have to go through all the idiot struggles that Europeans have gone through over the past thousand years ?

Do we stand back and 'support' the people of Syria by advising them that they might have to take that long before they can thrash out all of the idiot wrinkles of political evolution ?

And after another thousand years, seize, once and for all (well, more or less), democracy, the rule of the majority with its safeguards for the protection of minority rights, which people in most 'Western' 'democracies' now - more or less - take for granted ?

How to accelerate the process from tribalism to democracy - this is the task for Syrians, and for everybody else in the Middle East. Unless somebody has devised a superior system to democracy, with all its faults, then democracy in Middle Eastern countries is what we should be struggling for.

When people there can understand the need to separate 'church' and state, when they can understand that Arab = Iranian = Kurd = Turk = everybody else, and that consideration of everybody else's opinion is as valid as one's own, that women's opinion is as valued as men's, and that the only way to resolve a difference of opinion is to put it to a vote in which the majority wins, with safeguards for minorities, then little progress will occur.

Until this happens, I'll focus on my roses and Osmanthuses and the world can go to buggery.

Joe