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The Forum > Article Comments > Gay men forgotten in the anti-porn debate > Comments

Gay men forgotten in the anti-porn debate : Comments

By Matthew Holloway, published 9/1/2012

Subjugation of women may be the staple of 'straight' porn, but in gay porn it is men who are the victims.

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What a worthwhile article and important start to a debate that needs to be had, i commend and thank Mr Holloway for contributing it.

The 'Is porn exploitative' debate has always been boiled down to the issue of 'Men exploiting women' or as the modern alleged progressives and porn lobby would have us believe 'porn empowers women'.

This argument has so often ignored the fact that exploitation happens against all kinds of groups that come outside of the mainstream heterosexual community, those who are transgendered or homosexual need to be included in this debate and a critique on the ethics of porn needs to be raised in these communities.
Posted by Meggy, Monday, 9 January 2012 2:09:40 PM
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I found this article a little strange, in that the author is trying to tell us that big strong 'heterosexual' males in the porn industry are 'initiating' young 'gay-looking' males into the industry.

Hands up all those heterosexual males out there who would choose to have gay sex under any circumstances? No?

I would suggest that it is big strong homosexual males who 'prey' on younger, weaker males who may be homosexual, or who may be willing to have anal sex for money if they are desperate, or drugged, or forced or both.

I agree that we should be looking out for all people in the porn industry who are 'forced' to be there, or are drugged etc and made to appear in these films.

However, like many female porn actors, many of the gay and straight males choose to be there, because of the money.
That's their choice...
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 9 January 2012 7:42:22 PM
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How much "gay" "porn" is industry made, and how much is "amateur"? Why does visual porn recieve so much research attention, and is it more problematic than text based porn that has been around for centuries?

I guess asking these questions makes it sound like I'm located in the industry (not), but there are real questions about what sexuality is and how it is related to sites and practices of representation that are not being addressed in your piece. Pornography is older than its recent industrialisation.

One important insight you are making is that pornography is about denigrating one "type" of person, originally "openly sexual women" (the "porno" in pornography) and by extension "women" (the genre makes women sexually active in specific ways).

But porn is also about sex, and we are all pretty curious about that because it should be hidden. I suspect that the avalanche of pornographic material on the net, and particularly amateur material, will begin to change our sense of sexuality. It is so pervasive, and why anyone pays for material I can't guess. In part it might even end up spreading the word that active sexuality is not just for the airbrushed.
Posted by cardigan, Monday, 9 January 2012 7:57:11 PM
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Suzie has summed it up pretty well.

I was also somewhat bemused by

"Broke Straight Boys are an attempt to try and coerce males in financial hardship to put a price on how much they would be willing to sell their sexuality for and perform gay sex acts or more commonly have sex acts performed on them.

Once again this also ties into the issue of the gay men being portrayed as wanting to make themselves submissive to the heterosexual male to pleasure and worship him."

I'm not going to research that one but the description in the first paragraph does not seem to match in any way the author's analysis in the second.

The article seems to be themed around a desperation to blame heterosexual men for gay porn.

As with heterosexual porn feel free to tell us where people are forced into it against their will, feel free to not use it yourself if it bothers you, feel free not to take a job in the industry.

The author does not appear to propose sanctions, perhaps he just wishes to raise concerns but if the intent is to take it further so that the making or use of porn only involving consenting adults becomes again the subject of vilification or criminal sanction then I'm strongly opposed.

I don't have to like or agree with everyone's preferences or tastes but I really don't want those who feel that they can impose their morality on others to regain power wether that morality be in the guise of Mr's Grundy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Grundy) or social welfare.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 9 January 2012 8:37:36 PM
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I am very pleased to see this article in OLO. Gay porn so frequently become a way out of the discussion on exploitation and it is used as an excuse for commending porn. I have also heard this argument used among pro-porn lesbians who argue that it's okay if it is two women because it is not men exploiting women. Exploitation is exploitation in my book and porn exploits all kinds of different power relations across culture, race (so-called), class, caste, dis/ability, age as well as sex.

These are the reasons why I wrote my essay in Big Porn Inc http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=217/ about the exploitative basis of porn. In that essay I provide a critique of so-called torture play which is encouraged by some queer theorists in the USA. The book also includes an essay by Christopher Kendall on gay porn. I recommend this essay to you and your readers as one that offers a cogent argument for the issues that you raise in this opinion piece.
Posted by Susan Hawthorne, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 9:13:10 AM
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Plug over Susan?

I find it more interesting to categorise porn rather than put it all under one umbrella. Only a sith lord talks in absolutes.

Porn in essence is just voyeurism. I agree with the poster that talks about the way amatuer porn is a game changer. Ironiclly in this reality TV era, we have faux amatuer porn now too. They never seem to get the bad-ligting right, I supose the videographers just cant lower their standards and fake it. The actors can fake orgasms, just the tech guys have trouble coming to the party.

I wonder if any of the anti-porn activists would enlighten us on their stance on authentic consentual amatuer porn.

If they find it acceptable, then this issue is not really voyeurism (porn), not even sex, just garden variety industrial relations (worker exploitation) or anti-capitalism.

I suspect that they don't, which would make it the garden variety wowser or victim-feminist issue.
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 9:44:35 AM
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So-called amateur porn is used in the same way as the gay porn argument is used: ie to make porn sound ever so friendly and soft and okay.

But there are other questions that need to be asked: whose idea is it to make the porn? what are the power relations in this relationship? why the need then to make it public and put it on the internet? how does this gel with the thrill people get from watching porn or being watched? and what are the social pressures?

This is not the simple black white issue you make it out to be Houellebecq.
Posted by Susan Hawthorne, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 10:01:31 AM
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'Once again this also ties into the issue of the gay men being portrayed as wanting to make themselves submissive to the heterosexual male to pleasure and worship him.'

I must admit I find this all very intriguing. I always imagined Gay porn was all about converting 'confused' guys rather than worshipping supposedly 'hetero' men. You DO learn something every day.

'This example shows how the porn lobby is trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes; the truth is you cannot have exploitation in the name of liberalism.'

What about the fantasy of exploitation as an expression of guilt-free lack of control. I know you want it!:-)

'It is not a fair argument to argue the right to seek sexual gratification through taking advantage of and coercing those who are financially desperate, this is something which robs another a person of their human rights and dignity.'

What about seeking sexual fulfillment through transferring responsibility for a sexual act onto another so as you can indulge in it without guilt about an outdated but internalised morality or social taboo. Does that fantasy rob the 'exploiter' of their human rights to dignity? Two people are engaged in the same fantasy, and the one who enjoys the submissive route is victim-worshipped and pure, and the one who takes the dominating route is ostracised and evil?

I think it's a bit warped to conflate the age old dom/sub themes with men/women or assertive/submissive gays, which are enjoyable psychological tools to counter moral constraints, with actual exploitation
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 10:05:48 AM
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'whose idea is it to make the porn?'

Well no doubt to a victim feminist it would obviously be the guy. And even if the woman got a thrill, it would be through being conditioned in this misogynist patriarchical society. Even if she really got off on it, it would be a mirage, an expression of male sexuality, selling her short of the more pure and loving and intimite, and more human female sexuality.

'what are the power relations in this relationship?'

One can only imagine a downtrodden helpless woman, trying to please the brutish male and his dirty ego, with the only tool she has available, at the expense of her soul.

'why the need then to make it public and put it on the internet?'

To satisfy the ego of the cruel and domineering male, whose inate misogyny is expressed by his sense of pride at having humiliated and 'owned' the body of his partner by parading it for other filthy males.

'how does this gel with the thrill people get from watching porn or being watched?'

The thrill is an extension of this male dominated society, where the magic of intimate womanly love has been overturned by the sick male notion of sex as bodily fucntion to be explicitly and gratuitously paraded in front of others. Sex ripped of warmth and true intimacy by souless males.

I think it's all very black and white.
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 10:17:08 AM
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just an industry cashing in on people hopelessly enslaved to their lusts and putting children at risk.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 10:19:50 AM
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What is the matter with gay men have they taken leave of their senses? They want to regulate Internet gay porn? I would like to know how many gay actors Mr Holloway knows that have been pressed into the porn industry? The gay community do not need a nanny government to save them from the porn industry and it is an insult to gay men to assume that are so immature that they can not handle their lives on their own. The gay movement has fought long and hard for the rights that they have achieved they don't need to be sent back to the middle ages and regulated by those who claim to know what is best for them.
Posted by Ulis, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 11:06:12 AM
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[Deleted for abuse.]
Posted by Anton LaVey, Tuesday, 10 January 2012 12:15:27 PM
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One ingredient in the problem Matthew is raising has to do with why same-sex desire has been historically forbidden in the first place, and particularly male same-sex desire.

Under patriarchy male same-sex desire upsets the rules about who is chased (women) and who does the chasing (men). (What other power strategies come into play doesn't much matter at the level of ideology.) Under patriarchy male same-sex desire confronts men with the scenario of being put in a non-male position (chased, not chasing).

It is likely that this drama is going to be played out in "gay" porn no matter who is making it -- gay, straight, online industrial capitalist -- but with different inflections. So far Matthew's analysis appears blind to these questions.
Posted by cardigan, Friday, 13 January 2012 11:50:00 AM
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