Interesting points. I'm not sure where the author is taking this, but if he is saying:

1. Forced medical treatment for mental illness is profoundly wrong, and

2. Suicide is a personal choice (being a crisis of the self) for which only those making the choice are responsible,

then I believe he's spot on.

why do people think to take the 'easy way out'
cause their life feels like they are in hell allready
things cant get much worse

well i think thery are the best judge
if you killed people and have issues with that
well to hell with it

or gred or guilt or being found out doing bad stuff
yep the eassy way out

then there is the mursderr
looking like suicide

or a docter persribingh the wrong dosage
or wtrong medicine...in fact causeing the depresion

like prozac...has killed 10,000 plus people

the latest meds...are worse
but hety govt pays a subsidy..dont conduct routeen autopsies..
so its death by suicide..or smoking..or anything but fix the real problem

thing is its worse[harder]..to fix our karma
when were in spirit..[dead to this world]..than fix it now

every event has a cost
suicides are too self obsessed
their spirit remains tied to their dead flesh
till the last of their ego washes away as the decayed flesh melts away

its our life
what you going to stop us
by persicuting us with new laws

or make it too easy to kill..our selves
in ignorance]..well your page has finally come up

i should read the adgenda for today
and see if it needs be made more clearly

no david
i think..he is saying.../quote..""The UN Convention..on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities..(CRPD)was adopted..by the UN General Assembly in 2006..and ratified by Australia it in 2008.

It represents a huge..milestone
and an outstanding..achievement..of the disability rights/movement

At the heart of the CRPD..is a shift away from the paternalistic.."father knows best"..medical model of disability

to a social model..based on human rights..and social inclusion,
which is precisely...*what is needed..in mental health...[

..lol...

oh and in..}""suicide prevention.""""

lol i been fukkk ed by the system
im waiting for it to collapse
i DONT WANT..NO SYSTEM

want nuthin..to do with...ANY system
it persicuted me..personally..my whole life

go away
im not..going anywhere

""A core feature..of the CRPD
is a move away..from substituted decision-making,""...LOL

""such as involuntary..psychiatric treatment,""

yep
put em..on the street[homeless]
or in jail...or suberbia

""to a model based..on supported decision-making."""

you..go to work
now we need you

we will tell you..what to do
teach you..how to think

how to become
a good commie..party loyalist..[worker]

""..it...
entitles..an individual to have access
to whatever supports..[overr paid supporting adencies]..they need
to ensure...*their rights and..*their well-being.""

just;sign..on the dotted line
a unilateral/con-tract

''There is currently debate..whether the CRPD actually prohibits substituted decision-making entirely...but,at the very least,
it requires that those who wish to maintain it
are....LOL....*obliged to present...very compelling reasons...!...

in order to justify it...!

...Status quo assumptions
can no longer govern...our mental health laws""'

suicides?

look i suggest..phycoligists..get real jobs
we get by..with a little help from our friends and
other addictions...

its not an affliction..its a mind set

media..to/in my mind
sets up the adenda

tell us..what to do
or drug us..into submission

the meak..will inherit their 6 foot of earth
we live..we die...get over it.

.but do you live as slave..only thinking your free..
by telling others..to support a dead/state system

or go to jail
or loose your pension
or we cancel..your licence
de/regester..your car
call-in your debt

bah
go away
[not you..personally]
but the state...our master..!

I really don't know where this article was going either.

On the one hand, he is saying that suicide is not caused by depression and the current mental health strategy of managing depression with antidepressants doesn't work. If someone was feeling very happy in themselves, I doubt they would want to commit suicide!

On the other hand he reckons we should have a holistic approach to suicide prevention. I was of the impression that we already do take this approach. We currently offer counselling and medication if needed.

It is a well known fact that anti-depressants have saved many lives, but that they don't work for everyone. Or maybe some health practitioners have their patients on an inappropriate medication?

I also believe that no Government will provide this 'holistic', non-medication, non-inpatient treatment for suicidal people because of the huge cost factors involved.

I am of the opinion that non-medicated suicidal people are far more likely to end their lives than those on appropriate medication.
I agree that medication alone is not enough, and that counselling must also be included.

Keeping all suicidal patients out of a hospital is not practical, and the lawsuits from upset relatives following the inevitable suicide of their loved ones would be horrendous.

Even in a hospital, if a person really wants to commit suicide, they will...

Hello,
I work up Aboriginal People in the police
cells trying to prevent people from committing
suicide so I am not sure I really understand
the logic in this article. Many people need the support
that the medical profession offers and other organisations

Forced medical treatment for mental illness is profoundly wrong,
DavidL,
I recall several mental health "professionals" when I worked in a hospital. My experience/assertion was that these "experts" & bureaucrats cause more grief & trauma than any other group in society.
I actually confronted one of these Doctors & ended up reporting him because I actually saw him as a danger to people. Never heard anything about him again. Hopefully he committed suicide.
Many suicides aren't due to "illness", many people have so much integrity that they rather opt out than live with this lack of integrity. People don't kill themselves because of themselves, they do it because of the way the rest of us treat them. It's the stayers who are sick, not the victims.

suicide rates continue to increase as a society becomes more immoral and loose with its values. Spend and medicate all you like but it won't remove guilt, shame and condemnation. On a previous post we have posters offering opinions on what kind of sex is okay and what isn't and with whom. It's no wonder so many young ones turn to suicide/drugs with such messages imposed on them from an early school age. Secularism encourages the me generation who can't bear to think they are flawed. When they find out many can't handle it.

Dear runner,

This is how I know it is Christmas, when you dish up gifts like this.

So you are of the firm belief that suicide rates are tied to the licentiousness of a country. Let us go with that.

Firstly in Australia the suicide rate has been declining, particularly among males who are traditionally four times as likely to end their lives. In fact in the last 10 years it has dropped by around 25%.

Therefore, by your analysis we must becoming a more moral country. Wow, go figure.

But what is a good guide to the conservatism or 'morality' of a nation? Births out of wedlock would be a fair measure one would think unless you had a better parameter.

Switzerland traditionally is regarded as the the most conservative nation in Europe. While around one third of Australia's births are out of wedlock the figure in that country is half that.

So how does their suicide rate compare? It is DOUBLE ours.

So dear runner you are left with two choices, either claim, against all evidence that Australia is a more moral country than Switzerland or concede that suicide rates have very little to do with a country becoming “more immoral and loose with its values”.

Since if they do then the prescription for the Swiss suicide rate may well be to loosen up, liquor up and sleep around a little. One can only hope they have a very merry Christmas.

csteele

manipulate figures all you like. A large number of young men drive into a tree or hang themselves because their girlfriend is sleeping with someone else and vice versa. To deny this is to deny the obvious. Your analogy with Switzerland is interesting. Unless you had accurate stats on abortion you could not draw your needed conclusion. Guilt and shame increases the rate of suicide. Only someone in complete denial would disagree.

In fact in the last 10 years it has dropped by around 25%.
csteele,
I don't know who provided those figures & how close they are to real figures. I would not at all be surprised that many suicides are being hushed up in order to not show the real situation. There is severe desperation out there caused by incompetent bureaucrats. Any figures on how many suicides due to the live export ban ?
One factor in this doubtful drop in suicide rates could be that many people are now so desensitised that they're actually incapable of stressing about issues that many thinking & caring people worry about. Any figures on how many people commit gradual suicide to the light at the end of the tunnel being from the oncoming bureaucrat bandwagon ? By gradual I mean people just giving up on healthy living & start drinking themselves into an early grave.
Do your quoted figures include those who just give up but don't commit instant suicide ?

My apologies to the author.

Dear runner,

Luckily the Swiss keep excellent records on abortions. Their rate is low and dropping. At its highest in 2001 it was 14.7% for every 1000 pregnacies. It has dropped by nearly 15% since then. This equates to 8.2 abortions per 1000 women aged between 15 and 44.

Unfortunately South Australia is the only state with comparable records. Its rate of abortions per 1000 women in 2002 was 17.2, over DOUBLE that of Switzerland.

Yet the Swiss have DOUBLE our suicide rate!

If you feel I am manipulating figures the internet is a wonderful thing, go find your own and we will compare.

Got another parameter you would like us to consider?

Dear individual,

If you go here http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bn/stats/Suicide.pdf and scroll down to page 19 you will find the suicide rate in 1997 was 14.6 per every 100,000 persons and by 2007 in had fallen to 10.6, a 27.4% drop.

Now I'm not sure how many suicides might be attributed to the live cattle export ban. Perhaps the figures are not in yet although claims for an increase because of the drought were found to be baseless. Perhaps it would be instructive to see historically if there was an increase when Howard shut down the live sheep trade to the Middle East for a year.

Suicides especially among rural men continues to be of concern and access to similar support facilities that are enjoyed by city dwellers should be a priority for both sides of politics.

David Webb,

I have had three friends who chose to quit and a few others who were dispatched by criminals.

Fine minds, whose departure gave me the determination to fight the irresponsible greed of the privileged and the crass inutility of the blinds.

If you have someone who can translate from Italian, kindly, look at the following link. The man died in 1975.

The interview took place in Stockholm three days before his death and this recording was found a few days ago.

http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/cosi-pasolini-previde-litalia-di-b/2168712//0

This link is the first one of three. the others finish with 1 then 2 and 3 instead of 0

csteele

Statistics can be used to back any arguement however they are often totally misleading. How one is recorded as a suicide, whether the use of RU486 is recorded as an abortion etc etc. The vast majority of suicides appear to be as a result of a relationship breakup. Often it is a result of a young person feely rejected as secularism has led many to believe that their main use in life is their sexual attraction or performance. You are burying your head in the sand if you can't see that.

One under god:

...I agree entirely with your pronouncements. To call it an outrage, underscores the extent of the injustice of the state that “persecutes” the poor, by recalling a licence to drive a motor vehicle for non-payment of fines: Fines that result more often than not, from “out of context” issues unrelated to a drivers licence; for example, failure to vote.

...You so correctly describe the butchers’ picnic Australia has become, when a Government can randomly jail a citizen for filing information to “Centrelink”, when based on misdirected but best endeavours towards honesty, are treated as an act of criminal intent. Again the poor and the defenceless, the least able to defend themselves from this injustice, suffer these injustices without recourse or ability for rebuttal , as any possibility of access to lawyers to achieve justice, is confined to those resourced with the “means” to pay for that natural justice, from their own pockets.

...You, as usual OUG, hit the nail on the head with raw honesty, describing the circumstances under which life will often appear to be so unhelpful, making suicide justifiable; and nothing at all to do with “Mental Illness”. Or the constant oppression suffered from the increasing ranks of pensioners, forced by the plunder of heartless estate agents, to pay 70% of a pension for “ever” escalating rents, gouged for the “land lords” so revered by this Government, as the pillars of society, and trusted with the private enterprise function of housing the needy.

...But just a minute! Isn’t this the Government that prides itself on Human Rights? Bends over backwards and wails oceans of tears for the disposed of the world? Me-thinks a little more weeping for the disposed of Australia would make for a fine priority, and probably go a long way towards reducing suicide among our own citizens in times of dispossession, among the ever growing minority

i hate numbers games
i recall qld official figures once
where the numbers[per thousand]...said that 95 %..of nt
had been breathtested

completly insane...as the graph without the official numbers
looked just like all the other graphs..to wit year after year 95%..got a random breath test

accounting likely simply signed off on
the cost of bying...all them breath tests

but per 1000...is a huge scam
give the whole numbers..!

plus the individual local numbers
the sex numbers age etc..[and when they dont add up
we know its spin...

quote...""Luckily the Swiss keep excellent records..on abortions.""
does this include spotting...what term limit
is included in the OFFICIAL numbers..

[when is an abortion not just spontanious spotting
or the morning after pill?]

""Their rate is low and dropping.""
as would ours if it wasnt for the willing worker
/party loyalists..govt imports every year

""At its highest in 2001 it was 14.7% for every 1000 pregnacies.""

lol per thousand
what the whole number?

but lets call it 17*

""It has dropped by nearly 15% since then.""

ok so the number[17].. falls to less than 15*...more than 14

""This equates to 8.2 abortions per 1000 women"""

now we got a modicfier...NOTE...
""aged between 15 and 44""

""South Australia is the only state..with comparable records. Its rate of abortions per 1000 women in 2002 was 17.2, over DOUBLE that of Switzerland.""

WOMAN AGED BETWEEN 15 and 44?

what about child pregnancies
or older woman

cause it was best to go with the middle age group
cutting off the outliners?

stop running them [their models..
through computers and..point scoring spin machines/merchants

RAW NUMBERS..are...?
the topic is suicide

accidental death numbers are
road death numbers are
booze related death numbers are

well we all know what the numb-ers are
mindnumbing....for good reason..to stop reasoning

Great article. Widening human angst beyond “illness “ constructs and naming it "psychache" is something I will follow up on. As a survivor of over 40 years of mental health service responses I find the older I get, the more commonality I find with human suffering as a universal reality. Yeah to discussion beyond psychiatric capture. Thankyou David.

Contemplation of suicide a "crisis of the self" - I would have thought that was patently obvious. Why the hoohah then, as if this was something new, let alone an 'amazing discovery'? Yet, the author proclaims that this was an entirely new concept in 2006? And, was worthy of a PhD? Where was psychiatry then, and psychoanalysis, group therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy? Still only 'concepts'? Rubbish! An holistic approach to mental illness has been around for centuries.

Mental illness supposedly an 'inappropriate' or inaccurate descriptor? What shall we call the likes of depression then - soul-sick? And bi-polar - upsy-downsies? Or psychosis/schizophrenia/paranoia - outsies?

The author appears to put his money on any 'crisis of the self' being solely a conscious 'feeling' of unwellness (possibly including anger, self-doubt, confusion, distraction, lethargy, worthlessness ..), but discounts any associated alteration in neurlogical function or brain chemistry. This assertion is demonstrably totally erroneous. All changes in mental activity, including emotion, and particularly emotional stress, produce changes in brain function and brain chemistry. What does the author think dopamine, seratonin, etc are? Made up alchemy? Phlogistonic?

Is brain chemistry imbalance a reality? You bet. Can appropriate medication, such as anti-depressants and seratonin reuptake inhibitors, etc, be efficacious in restoring more normative brain chemistry, to the ultimate benefit of a patient? You bet.

Is a holistic approach to 'mental illness' the best approach, taking account of all causative and contributing factors? Naturally. So, what's new?

Stigmatisation is in the mind of the individual, not a societal prejudice, at least not generally in Aus. Could we do better in employment opportunities? Yes.

Forced detention and treatment detrimental? Maybe in some cases, but how many more suicides would there have been without it?

Are our public and private mental health services adequate? No where near!

David Webb,
It's a real pleasure to read your thoughts on this topic and I agree that mental illness has been a lucrative and heavily exploited market, and that Beyond Blue is nothing but a PR machine designed to patronise and normalise the "mentally ill"--withal its naive and well-intentioned spokespersons. But I don't think your criticism goes far enough, indeed that it's naive itself in the notion of a "crisis of the self"; it doesn't go far enough because it doesn't criticise the sick culture that cultivates all this "mental illness", and it's naive in that it doesn't premise its "crisis of the self" on its delusionary preoccupations. The only part of the self that's genuine is its a priori capacity for critical distance (the operating system--which is not to belittle it), the rest is derived from the host culture, and this ties in to the first part of my objection. Neither "Mental illness" nor its apotheosis in suicide is a subjective phenomenon; it's a "social" phenomenon. And I'm sorry to say that your position, apparently, of wanting to legitimise and empower the mentally ill does nothing to address the the originary problem or its propagation. Indeed you are only legitimising a pathological system by seeking its patronage.
You surely must see this? And so I can only assume you're promoting yet another form of passive identity politics.
I think suicide infinitely more respectable.

Dear runner,

I have not put any argument forward, you did that. But without evidence it is “as sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal”. All I have done is furbished some statistics which directly contradicted it.

You have in a manner painted suicide as a reflection of society's, and by implication a person's morals.

Your baseless argument deserved challenging.

Dear OUG,

I did indeed place an errant % mark in “At its highest in 2001 it was 14.7% for every 1000 pregnancies.” The number is 14.7 per 1000. Sorry. I stand by the others.

I can see why you hate numbers.

Dear David Webb,

Thank you for your article. My apologies for the above diversions.

From my understanding the protocols around reporting suicides, particularly youth suicides, have contributed to a significant drop in cases over the last decade or so. I for one would be very uneasy about relaxing any of those protocols even if it were to gauge their effectiveness which I gather you dispute.

I would need a better reason to dismiss the gatekeepers than the ones offered.