Jane Caro,

"There is something bizarre about the extremes western women are prepared to go to look good. Show me a woman from 13 to 70..."

l dont know wots more bizarre. The deeply vain narcissm of some women or the fact that you define a 13 yr old as a woman.

Are you suggesting a 13 yr old girl sould have a sex life, like one would expect to see in a normal woman?

l think the implication of you defining a 13 yr old girl as a woman is far more onerous than your analysis.

The sentiment of your article is the root of the problem. People who allow themselves to be influenced against their better judgement are responsible for their own motivations. They are responsible for their own behaviour. Your approach, a very predictable and cliched one, is to blam men for your own self image , your motivation and your behavior. you speak of empowerment. Blamining others is the single most disempowering thing that one can do. You do not have to buy into the nonsense that the mainstream constantly feeds us. You can choose to unplug and think for yourself.

Scapegaoting men, which seems to be a favourite past time of some (many?) women, for your own autonomous behaviours, is not the way to go. Until you see that you are forever doomed to obsessing over your bodies and writing articles filled with thinly veiled vilifiying invective.

Trade

Well said mate!

Cheers
Kay

even tho the point is long gone...in my last comment i had one too many "not"s. the sentence was not meant to say "cannot not" and it did change the meaning entirely, bugger.

I think you can't overlook the fact that women in some countries have been made to wear that garb on pain of death. So it's not just a choice, but a powerful symbol of oppression. Equality is one of our "core" values.

You can be very, very modest in slacks, long sleeved top, scarf and sun glasses - Jackie Kennedy seemed to often dress like that - without signing up with the oppressive connotations of the chador.

Absolutely agree about Ms Kennedy and her exquisite style, but in Australia we do concentrate quite rightly on comfort and function (and for some, but not a lot, elegance) in this hot country rather than modesty.

Modesty is very much a personal notion and of course it applies to men as strongly as it applies to women and both sexes practise it as they see fit, eg. toning down the swearing or declining to boast about oneself in public.

In this sense, a person's 'actions' make them modest not their outward appearance which is only a very superficial and shallow guide to their character. You CANNOT buy elegance off the rack but neither can you purchase modesty to wear.

The irony of Homer Simpson's request "No fat chicks" says it all.

Sure look after your health etc, but, anyone obsessing about weight etc purely on the grounds of beauty is suffering vanity and that is always self imposed.

As for the original point - women controlling men's desires etc - self control is only tempered by a society that has appropriate values, be it a society of nudists or Eskimoes. What forms those values...the real question / answers lie therein.