I'm sure the ALP and Unions are trying to find all manner of ways to try to get the Conservative Coalition, as opposed to the GreenALPIndie Socialist coalition, to commit to a strategy, so they can start their usual fear and scare campaign as early as possible.

This of course is what they are good at, not governing, not vision, not building a country to everyone's benefit, just combating their enemies.

It starts with the majority of the ALP coming from combative unionist backgrounds, it's what got them to the top, it's apparently all they know.

Why should the conservatives hand the Socialists such a tool, better to leave them, as usual, without direction, flailing around with no idea what to do next, lurching from one disaster to another searching for a reason to exist.

Just one year in, and everyone knows they are doomed, so what do they do .. try to start the next election campaign early.

Do you think the Australian public is tiring of the endless negative governing, what they accuse others of, the endless scare campaigns and high drama of ALP MPs?

The only time the present government sounds confidant, is when they attack their opposition, toothlessly, but you can see how happy they are to be on familiar ground.

No substance, no results and endless spin, same as the socialists in the old eastern Europe.

rgp I agree with you however without clear policy the opposition looks the same.

Labor diehard's are making much or the portrayal of Abbott as entirely negative (pretending that their mob don't play it the same way when in opposition).

The danger is that the present government is so bad that Abbott will get in just on their failings and then be found to have nothing to offer.

Maybe time to stick his head up with some policy, if they are good enough to lead the country they should be smart enough to anticipate the Labor and union scare campaigns and pre-empt them.

If not then it's more of the same, I for one am very tired of more of the same with a different face in front of the camera's.

R0bert

One year in and on the election trail, hasn't Abbott been the one doing that, spruking in kindergartens, everything that is negative. It would be interesting to see some sort of policy from the opposition. They could not bring themself to attend the tax forum, we can only imagine they do not understand such things.

RObert, I'm sure the Conservative Coalition have a plan, but will not bring it out to the Socialist's timing, why should they.

Why are Socialist Coalition followers demanding the conservatives come up with a policy? Is it because they need something to do, to distract them from their own disaster .. the ALP never came out with policies till election eve .. why should they of all people be surprised the conservatives won't give in to their demands?

The socialist media is going nuts about Tony Abbott, as they are directed to do every time they speak to the socialist's press advisers, instead of focusing on the government as they should be doing.

Is the government so failed that even their own tame media have written them off? Yes ..

I'm OK with the Socialists self destructing and then the conservatives roll out their plan .. when they need to, just before an election .. by then, the unions will have shown their greed and lack of control as they try to stitch up deals before this government falls. So the public will be well receptive to the conservatives.

That's when the conservatives need to show their colours, and not before. To show before then, allows the conservatives to be the focus, and not as should be the case, the government of doom.

Eventually, all these political battles become personalized.

Passengers stranded in remote parts of the world will find it hard to forgive the company for the discomfort and inconvenience. Pilots and other staff will start looking even more actively for a position with a more stable organization. Shareholders will be spitting chips at the additional impact on the share price. That's quite a trifecta.

As for me, I don't travel as much as I used to, I'm not employed by the airline industry, and my Super is minimally exposed to Qantas. So I can be fairly sanguine about it all, and watch it play out from the sidelines.

Except for one small thing.

My partner, who works in the Industrial Relations biz, and has been a lifelong Labour supporter, ventured the view yesterday that this is the final straw.

She is contemplating voting Liberal.

Believe me, that is an earth-shattering concept. I fully expected the moon and stars to have realigned overnight, and birds to be flying backwards.

There's still one thing that could stop this happening of course, and that is if she arrives at the ballot box and is forced to contemplate an Abbot-led government.

Should be an interesting few months.

It will become even more obvious as time passes that this is an organized destruction of the “old” Qantas to enable the “new” Asian based Qantas to suddenly spring from the ashes of this meltdown.
It will be based most likely in Singapore and use all Asian (cheaper) labour for crew and servicing.
It will increase profits due to reduced costs.
This was a trap waiting for the unions to walk into. They have learned nothing from the “first” airline strike that Hawke somehow did not manage to arbitrate.
Sorry folks but Qantas Australia is finished and will soon be forgotten.

Premature contemplating by your wife i would say. The fair work has success; The outcome is what the it was designed for. An overreaction in going global for an internal dispute. Other options were at hand, Faults on both sides, now thinking time prevails. So you could say the ALp has won again, without any ideas from the opposition, missing in action again.

The chickens are coming home to roost. The unions, inspired by the new Fair Work act believe they can act with impunity. As this was an entirely Labor construct, Juliar cannot blame previous governments as she usually does.

Wouldn't it be nice to have something that Labor hasn't stuffed up.

sarnian, don't be such a dinosaur, companies reinvent themselves all the time .. desperately clinging to old ideas is symptomatic of Luddite tendencies I hear.

What's wrong with Qantas changing? If that's what the owners, the shareholders, want, they should just get on with it and not allow the company to be run for the sole benefit of the corpulent unions.

Surely when the government sold them off, they didn't expect them to retain the old model forever, it simply doesn't work to tie yourself to a behavior when all your competitors and indeed, your customers change.

At any rate, Qantas has shareholders to report to, not the Australian public's sense of entitlement. Well, some of the Australian public at any rate.

The unions clearly see Qantas as a vehicle to gorge themselves in pay and benefits and who cares about anyone else, while blaming the company for the effects they deliver.

Ask any shareholder if they have invested in Qantas so it can become a benevolent society for the workers?

Shareholders expect a return and if they don't get it, will pull out and the share price and value of the company will drop.

Some one can talk sense. The company belongs to shareholders, and they will decide, as they did with two million of their money. It is free enterprise, as so many others before them have gone off shore. Money speaks all languages, with out interpretation.

Dick Smith commented on the radio this morning and made a lot of sense.
With an open skyes policy there are many more flights into Australia
by airlines that are government owned and or subsidised by government.
They have costs that are significantly lower than Qantas.

The upshot is if we want the lower fares the choice becomes

Many airlines flying into Australia and no International Qantas.
or
Many airlines flying into Australia and low costs for Qantas International.

The other alternative is
Less airlines flying into Australia and Qantas charging higher fares.

The scene was set when the government quite some years ago opened up
Austalian airports to all comers.

QANTAS deserves to die, hopeless service, terrible cabin staff, high prices and a greedy board.

Who cares?

Keating flogged it off to 'the public' so it is no longer anything but an airline business like any other.

I already never fly QANTAS anymore, and much prefer Singapore, Thai, Air France and KLM, particularly when carting children around the world.

We should insist QANTAS stops pretending to have any claim to 'being Australian' though, and have them remove the Kanga from the tail, to be replaced with, what?

Something more 'Asian' perhaps?

The current Qantas Board and CEO appear determined to turn the company into an offshore enterprise. This is contrary to both the letter and the spirit of the legislation.

From the Qantas Sale Act, the following must be included in the Articles of Association of Qantas:
<blockquote>"(e) prohibit Qantas from taking any action to bring about a change of its company name to a name that does not include the expression "Qantas"; and

(f) prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:

(i) its company name; or

(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression "Qantas"; and

(g) require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and

(h) require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas; and

(i) require that, at all times, at least two-thirds of the directors of Qantas are to be Australian citizens; and

(j) require that, at a meeting of the board of directors of Qantas , the director presiding at the meeting (however described) must be an Australian citizen; and

(k) prohibit Qantas , at all times, from taking any action to become incorporated outside Australia."</blockquote>

Where does this sit with reference to plans to move lock, stock and barrel to an Asian centred operation, paying Asian money and thumbing the corporate nose at Australian IR laws and practices?

No wonder the Australian employees are not happy - they are entitled to expectations of a future which is in line with the Qantas Sale Act.

Abbot's only "strategy" is the same as any other Liberal or Labor leader- whinge about the other party's policies (or lack thereof) and try to stall any attempts to fix a problem; until they get into government and do the exact same thing the other party would have done anyway.

As always, the devil in all this is in the details.

According to Paul Sheehan, Tony Sheldon was one of the architects
of the "bleed Qantas slowly" strategy. All the aces were in the
unions pockets, Qantas was losing 15 million$ a week at no cost
to employees. No CEO worth his salt, can tolerate that kind of
situation.

The FWA is great at protecting workers, not so good at protecting
shareholders. 9 of the 11 FWA commissionars are seemingly ex union
officials.

Qantas needed certainty, an end to the bleeding, or the whole
company could have gone down eventually.

As it was, it took FWA over a day of discussions to agree that
a termination of industrial activity was warranted, rather then
more bleeding down the track, as the unions were pushing for.

So Joyce and the board had little option but to do what they did,
with such cards stacked against them.

The more worrying aspect to me is that a bloke like Sheldon
could land up heading the ALP.

The commentators on OLO seem to have forgotten that although the Labor Party had a policy before the election, they failed to stick with it anyway, so we now have a Carbon Tax.

I agree with posts that make the point that this is an inevitable product of globalised business. Lower cost base is common sense for a business run for profit. Alan Joyce has not been hiding his intentions, it just seems people only hear/believe what they want to hear/believe.

Try here for direct word from the CEO back in August: http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110816/pdf/420dw1q15pxl58.pdf

Then read the FWA decision: http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm

Clearly this has been brewing for some time. Joyce's plan is for limited compulsory redundancies so many currently disaffected workers will probably get a chance to opt out for a reasonable sum OR re-locate to work for Qantas at one of its hubs.

20% higher cost base means business slowly going broke. Better to have a business that grows in the global environment than lose the business altogether.

Yes, more upheaval to come but would people rather not buy stuff on-line from OS or have the flexibility to shop around? That micro-reality will drive the macro one.

TBC writes

'QANTAS deserves to die, hopeless service, terrible cabin staff, high prices and a greedy board.'

Thats funny. I have flown with Qantas for 30 years only to find the service excellent, the staff good and the prices reasonable. They do however push the left agenda a bit to much which I thought TBC would like. Look through their programs and you find the 'gay'agenda', the gw propaganda and an over elevation of the arts.

Is JohnBennetts alleging a breach of section 7 of the Qantas Sale Act 1992? If so please contact the relevant Minister as they have power to injunct. ;))

I would have thought Qantas' legal team was pretty familiar with section 7 JB.

Qantas action has achieved nothing. Negotiations are still to happen and be resolved in 21 days, or else FWA will resolve it for them.

579, true, but the unions are snookered and have lost their fight.

Paddy may well re-Joyce in his gold dust afterwards, but he has a lot of re-building to do.

If I'd been dumped in London or worse expecting to catch a plane and some dingbat had run, eyes streaming, to the government asking to be saved from the TWU, I'd be wondering about his lack of negotiation skills and his suitability for the job.

Since I no longer ever fly with Australia's new Asian airline anyway, so it's all academic, but if I was still a Q flyer on last Saturday, I would not be any longer.

JOYCE is “Chainsaw” AL DUNLAP revisited.

The public's knows that Qantas has moved from the highest safety record in the history of passenger aviation to an airline whose golden philosophy is in jeopardy via the corporate level.

Alan Joyce is simply anoter "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap, brought in to "cut the fat". However, this time, the intention is far less respectable. Alan Joyce is a case of a man whose salary alone would save the airline, if it was distributed amongst the corporation. It is how an exponent of l'aissez faire liberalism expects to win hands down through the aid of economic brutality. The Senator for NSW, Doug Cameron is right to point out the difference between "Wall Street salaries and Bangladeshi wages."

The action of grounding all aircraft was Joyce's only answer to the process of industrial action because his imagination tells him that he is employed to beat the unions. If he wins, the future of this brand is no longer Australian - whether in national ownership, or in the industrial equilibrium which unionism has actualised in this country more than any other in the world except perhaps Britain.

Joyce's stunt was aimed at bringing the Federal Government into the arena. For my money, the outcome was cowardly. Gillard and Swann should be going for Joyce with the spears and arrows of a Labor government.

Bringing the Fair Work commission into the debate should not exclude a solution which ensures Australian employment, Australian working conditions and Australian ownership will continue where-ever Qantas operates the world over.

Readers who do not understand the role which unionism has played in the development of our Australian way of life are due for an education. The views of liberalism are essential to our plurality when, say the NSW Labor Government, the Left starts to go wrong. But those people who believe that we should all be okay about foreign workers having our jobs - especially so that we are forced to consider something the same - are fanatics, pure and simple.

Bruce Quilty, MA(Aust Hist)
BLUE MOUNTAINS

The fac t of the matter is these baggage handlers, who are on as much as $85 grand a year are plain and simply, over paid. End of story!

Now had they thought this trough they would have realized that when they were being paid as much, if not more than our police, that they were on a good thing.

As I say, if you keep punishing the risk takers, they will eventually stop taking risks.
B
Lessons in life are often hard learned ones, despite all th advice and warnings from those in the know, those who create the jobs, that these and many others treat like it's thier given right o not only have a job, but to be over paid for the unskilled work they perform.

Sadly, this is just the beginning as many other risk takers have also had a gut full of these union thugs.

Interesting times ahead.

Now as for TA and his IR policies, call an election and we will soon know his policies.

I dare them to do that!

SFTS "But those people who believe that we should all be okay about foreign workers having our jobs - especially so that we are forced to consider something the same - are fanatics, pure and simple."

Huh .. so we want to let in anyone who comes on a boat (or plane as a refugee or migrant), regardless of their origin, we have to share our bounty with the world to compensate for the guilt of progress through the Carbon Tax, we will quadruple or foreign aid aside of Carbon Tax giveaway to buy "indulgences" so Rudd can play on the world stage .. but we don't want others to have jobs? We spray money around like we're drunken sailors on a night out

How do you figure fanatics fit into this? (fanatically stupid?)

We either empower entrepreneurs here to run our businesses and stop kneecapping them whenever they do turn a buck, or we just shut up shop and no longer have a tax base. Because it seems everyone thinks businesses are a magic pudding that you can endlessly tax for whatever fool purpose you can think of.

The unions are starting to have greed competitions, with no word of productivity and will bully companies to death.

Negotiate with them? Qantas are in this position because the unions have demanded they fold, and will not negotiate at all .. you can't negotiate when only one side is playing.

I'm sure all the ALP voters are happy, beating up businesses, and empowering every form of parasite we have, nation building stuff eh?

We're an international laughing stock, not because of what Qantas has done, but because we are as many people suspect, little minded people supporting greedy union bullies.

...If Qantas is in such “Dire Straits” then let it go to “where monies for nothing and chicks are free” !

"baggage handlers, who are on as much as $85 grand a year".

And the evidence for that overblown claim is where rehctub?

And the rise they sought was what, 70% a year perchance?

And they were offered what, a mere 60%, or was it more around the 3% level?

I saw an interview with the wife of a baggage handler who says her husband earned $20 an hour, about what a 20 year old shoppo might earn, as in fact one of my children does, flogging phones.

A miserable enough stipend for a single person but hardly sufficient to house, clothe and feed 2.4 children these days.

Particularly when inflation is at or higher than the pay 'rise' on offer.

Blue Cross,
We are in a new world now.
Our GDP is being eaten by the cost of energy.
So everyone will be worse off from now on.
We are no different to the Americans and the Greeks.

Coal and oil are at high prices, not peak prices but quite high.
It will not get better.

A good reason not to have airlines any longer Bazz.

Let us all return to the days of yore, taking the grand old 'all red route' back home to the mighty Albion by tea clipper.

Just think, Rudd would never been seen again, as he sets off into the sunset on his gruelling world jaunts.

See, there's a silver lining even in peak oil!

I think the antics of Qantas are quite interesting to say the least.
It does set a new precedent for IR in this country.
I believe Allan Joyce was given the orders by the board-get it resolved or find another job.
Other employers will probably use this practice to full advantage in future disputes.
The only other lockout I can remember,was in 1928 when coal owners locked out their workforce.In the Northern coalfields of NSW resulting in much hardship and poverty for those involved and the eventual death of a young miner,shot by police at Rothbury.
I think in a year all Qantas aircraft will be flown out of Australia and brands and icons of the airline will no longer exist.With the sacking of all staff viz-a-vi Ansett.

http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Baggage_Handler_

Try this link.

Pericles, here's the good news:

Qantas shareholders and buyers are so so spitting chips that today the share price of Qantas had risen by 6% (About 2pm $1.63.
Once the Arbritration is imposed expect Qantas to become competitive with the overseas airlines, it's market share to go from the current 22% back to 80%, as it was before the 'open skies' policy, and it's share price will return to the $7 it was then.

Sarnian,

no no Qantas will be Australian based using labor on contracts reflecting international cost.
Qantas prices will be roughly the same as the other international carriers.

Tumblegum

no your attitude is foreign to top management and boards.

They think and act in positives.

It's more likely Joyce was told 'look you earn $1.8mil. If you can increase the share price of Qantas to this level(?) then we'll increase your pay to $5.0mil.

You know we can all save our jobs, we just have to forgo the temptation of seeking out the best deal and buy Australian products and services, manned by Australian staff.

It is we, who have helped to cause this by demanding cheaper flights and abandoning our so called national icon.

I challenge those who think Qantas is in the wrong, to fly Qantas and not seek the lowest fares.

Will our elite sporting teams still wear the logo of their sponsor, QANTAS, with pride?

Rehctub, today's West Australian quotes baggage handlers as
averaging 74k$, engineers averaging 147k$ and pilots on 250-400,
depending on the planes etc. Not a bad wicket for any of them.

What amazes me is that the union thugs think that they can preserve
Australian jobs by "bleeding Qantas slowly". These same people run
the ALP and the Govt. Do they understand nothing about business
at all? Have they learnt nothing in the last 30 years?

IMHO their sheer ignorance is destroying Australian jobs.

If Sheldon and his mates know better, well they are free to use
their huge influence and Qantas workers super fund money and buy
the airline, then show us how its done.

...I checked into your commonly quoted figures for baggage handlers Yabby. It is possible for a baggage handler to earn those figures IF prepared to work 52 weeks a year, 60 hours a week.

...The reality is, the job is so “punk” that the staff turnover is enormous, and is actually more like $22ph plus penalties; which makes it a pretty average job, and pay, for Australian conditions.
Not only are Australian pilots well paid, they are exceptionally well trained (thus the safest). Good value for the passenger I would think: Neither are they expected to fly by the seat of their pants in inferior machinery and under maintained, with their eye-balls hanging out from lack of sleep; also a positive!

...But I believe the inevitable must occur with Qantas though, and it must go the way of the world to Asia, or die a death of a thousand lashes in Australia

Diver Dan, in this case I'll prefer to rely on the West Australian
aviation writer Geoffrey Thomas, for my information. In the past
he's proven to be extremely well informed and accurate. So thanks
for your amateur attempt, but I'll see it as that.

Around 10 years ago I actually had a great deal to do with some
of the Qantas cargo handlers and the penalty rates, lurks and perks were
what boosted their salaries. Unlike your claim of high staff
turnover, none of them dreamed of leaving. When Qantas called for
voluntary redundancies, a few cashed in on the huge payouts and
found another job within days. Money for jam all the way!

The fact is that today, a business has to operate based on sound
business practise. If Qantas International is losing 200 million
a year, either restructure it or shut it down. Operate those
sections that do make money. Jetstar is making money in Vietnam
and Singapore, it makes pefect sense to expand those businesses and
tap into the 4 billion consumers in Asia, other then the mere 22
million in Australia.

Luckily I saw the writing on the wall for Qantas years ago. I run
my own super fund and would not have touched their shares with a barge
pole, given that the joint is largely run for the benefit of employees.
But I do have empathy for the mums and dads who bought
into the Qantas spin story and invested their hard earned savings,
only to be screwed all the way. If Joyce can turn that around,
despite having a whole union movement against him, a union movement
who even controls the Govt, then the man is worth every penny and
some justice will prevail for those who got screwed.

...If I sound happily resigned to inevitabilities of job losses for Australians, I am not! For many years I have watched in wonderment at the huge losses of industry shrugged off overseas to “harbours of cheap labour” in Asia, all given the “Nod” of approval by successive Governments of all shades, while overgearing anti-union attacks on those left behind.

...Then in equal wonderment, I watch as huge numbers of the same Asians invade our shores, looking for a better world in which to live; apparently not happy now with the gift of industries so freely given over the years, they want the land that they stood on too apparently.

...I stand behind the Liberal philosophy pre-Menzies; beware the yellow peril! Well, turns out they were correct. A return to the “White Australia” policy would be in order!

Actually, for some reason, this whole dispute brought back memories
for me of a bloke whose intellect I had a huge regard for,
called Robert Holmes a Court. Sadly he died quite a few years ago.

When Joyce shut Qantas down, some people were absolutaly stunned,
claiming "this is not how we do things in Australia."

It reminded me of Holmes a Court, when he went to
New York and did a deal on US Steel, walking away with 300 million.

The locals were stunned and claimed "This is not how we do things
in New York. You don't know the rules here, Mr Holmes a Court"

Robert in his quiet way replied " Well the Vietkong did not know the
rules either and look what happened to them"

No doubt that left the Americans choking on their whiskey :)

So DD, which part of running a business are you not sure about.?

Do you think governments should have the powers to say how and when a business can act?

Just remember, the government did have control of many businesses as they were publicly owned, however, thanks to successive incompetence from governments, most of these assetts have been sold off, generally to repay debt incurred from mismanagement from these, or previous incompitent governments.

The one crucial misunderstanding from these fools is that business, unlike governments, don't run on a cost recovery basis.

BTW, trades such as chefing and butchery have pay rates that are less than baggage handlers at Qantas.

Now, considering these are skilled workers, having done a trade course, do you honestly think this Qantas pay rate is a fair and equitable wage?

I suggest that some of the posters here look at the Qantas constitution available here
http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/corporateGovernance/Constitution.pdf
and then tell us how they are going to survive without considerable financial help from the government.

David

rehctub

...# Capitalism: An economic system promoting the odds for the largest gains, inside an environment exhibiting the biggest losers. #

...The Qantas fiasco masks the Disney-land reality of globalism. The globalised free market economy is the antithesis of success to industrialised western economies. The economic “true cost” is social incohesion caused through entrenched unemployment, by export of its industrial base to “ports of cheap labour”; as the consequence, the collapse of law and order and destitution of its citizens, and the eventual loss of its cultural base.

...Australia needs, as a “prima Facie”, a return to closed borders and the white Australia policies of the past, for restoration of its domestic economy, together with a restorative refocus on its traditional Christian based culture of the past, as a moral guide for its future!

Australians at large have brought it upon themselves.

On the one hand they have demanded better working conditions, higher wages and flexibility within the workplace, giving little or no regard for the employers while, on the other hand they have abandoned Australian businesses by buying cheaper imported foods, white goods and electronics, or, flown on over seas flights at the cheapest price available,despite the factbthat our national carriers pays around 20% above national rates and far more than these cheaper airlines.

I have said it many times and will say it again, you can't have your cake and eat it.

The people are as much to blame as anyone else.