I don't think your up to speed regarding "Democracy" and "Integrity" our PM has no Integrity and as a consequence probably 60% plus of our people have absolutely no respect for her.

Please outline how true Democracy can work under these circumstances .

Any true democratic situation is open and clear. What Abbott has created is total negativity to the extent many have forgotten what is truth and what is an accepted change of mind.This debate is a non-issue in that Julia Gillard wanted legislation reforms not just for now,but so whoever is in Governt. can do their roll as per the law. T A sees this as victory for Labor, not our nation and that is so very sick of him and selfish.

Australia is positive;not negative.Let our empolyment rate do what it is and that is gather pace;however some States are set to crash the main order just to permit power to go to the other side of The House.

So the balance for positive as it is now;is to be displaced by the 'negative'? If so why and be Oh so most careful that a change is not always what it is dressed up in. Like the fox who tore the sheep up from drinking fro the same stream...even though the sheep was down-flow from the fox...IT WAS HE...who stired the water to become muddy and very cloudy...THE FOX is Tony Abbott...so be warned and think on it. We are not stupid Mr Abbott.

The solution to this prolem is easy. All the trendy lefties who want these boat people here can billet them out until they can financially stand on their own two feet.

However, if a law like this was passed then the left would cease supporting the boat people because then they would have to take responsibility for their rhetoric. Once it's their money and time they have to spend and not someone else's their minds will change.

Abbotts repugnant attitude is not in Australia's interest. He would rather bring the country in to disarray than say something positive. Why is he criticizing China, what is in it for him. The members of the opposition may as well not be there, they don't get a say. All he does is spread propaganda, and hatred and not necessarily confined to AU.

The process of making Australia positive again must start from the Australian community that sets the standards under which political parties operate. If enough people in each electorate demand innovation and positive policy and social, economic and environmental outcomes then the Australian Government, the Opposition and the Greens will have not choice but to respond creatively and positively.

For the last 20 years, the Australian Macedonian community has been demanding from the Australian PM, the Foreign Minister and the Australian Parliament action that will improve Australia's international reputation and influence through innovation of its outdated and unsustainable policies on the Republic of Macedonia and its right to self-identification. The good news is that both the Australian Government and the Opposition have started responding to the calls for change that are transmitted to them through our elected representatives and quality media like On Line Opinion.

We the Australian people, will not accept the lowering of Australia's positioning, global influence, democracy and living standards. If any country on this planet has prospects for a bright future then surely it is Australia with its rich and diverse social, cultural, economic and environmental treasures

Andrew MacLeod, the most negative, Spinganda ever.

Have you forgotten how high the vote for alternatives like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Democrats & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Nation_(Australia) has been in past elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson won her rusted on, safest ALP seat in Australia's history, as a disendorsed Liberal candidate by a huge margin.

i have some advice for GAYLP members before the next election. if you want some hope of avoiding the most embarrassing defeat in modern electoral history & you are from the loony left factions, resign, join Bob Brown's really RED communist party now & you might have some hope of lessening the electoral armagedon coming your way, if you are from the right, resign join http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Katter 's http://www.ausparty.org.au/ or the http://www.dlp.org.au/ before it is too late. if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Bevis had tried this he might still be in parliament.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220805

Garum Masala, you are too kind every online poll i have ever seen has the figure at 80% or more.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220812

LETMEIN, another dreamer with "reality issues", all of your arguments fit Juliar perfectly, Fabian "wolf in sheeps clothing".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220815

Aristocrat, could not have said it better myself.

BTW one of the islamic terrorist ASIO caught had been here for 19 years & 14 children on welfare. Wonder if Penny Wrong would have liked billeting him?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220820

579, another perfect description of the entire RED/green, getup, GAYLP/alp, Socialist Alliance Spinganda factory.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220825

Macedonian advocacy, 60% to 80% of the Australian population sincerely wish all racial & ethnic groups the very best of British luck in THEIR own sovreign nation. i would be first in line to urge our government to do all it can to help Macedonia's people improve it from within.

However Multiculturalism & mass immigration were invented by closet communazi, fifth collumn saboteurs at the height of the cold war to destroy 1st world capitalist nations by creating poverty at both ends.

migration & job exporting has been keeping Aboriginal people out of work since the 1970's as well as "poor white trash", which is how the ruling left wing elites look down at their own people, labour, " the worker's friend, NOT".

BTW, i believe Tony Abbott has been "positively" opposing the worst government in world history, let alone the abominable Whitlam.

just to keep you loony lefties sctratching your heads, i will quote my favourite list of Australia's 3 best PMs.

#1, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEwen

#2, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Chifley

#3, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Menzies

in that order, all of them great MEN, everything since then has been down hill, with the exception of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard , like TA, not perfect but at least he saved what was left of the East Timorese, after Indonesia was finished with them & tried to protect children from their dead beat mothers with 50/50 shared parenting laws.

My pick for worst moment of the last election campaign was when Juliar Dillhard, dared to mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Chifley in her campaign launch speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin & Chifley would be turning in their graves if they could see what the RED/green, getup, GAYLP/alp, Socialist Alliance has DEgenerated into over the last half century or so.

DISGUSTING!

The LNP are not perfect, nobody is, but there is no lower form of life than a closet communazi, sabotuer, deliberately "white anting" their own nation from within.

Bring on the Royal Commission into Closet Communazi, international ANTIsocialism, or UNaustralian activities. A raving right wing, hanging judge from the Supreme court of all states & territories + 1 more from the High Court, then do them all for treason, there is mountains of evidence available.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/the-covert-comrades-in-the-alp/story-e6frg6zo-1225887087909

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society dingos in sheeps clothing

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5vajlNhSzWYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mark+aarons+the+family+file&source=bl&ots=_JqnT4mkHv&sig=23tiin36Jjg84b7-Ttuxxp7L3gI&hl=en&ei=jKD0TOiQD8fzcfH_mMcE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.mailstar.net/xTrots.html exporting jobs, creating poverty, why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc5E6pvDv2Y&feature=channel_video_title exporting jobs, creating poverty, how?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/radical-roots-seep-through-at-the-heart-of-greens-20100726-10sj0.html

http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236# the prophet

http://www.themonthly.com.au/node/2298 the disciple

http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm tick off how much has already come true in Australia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RDMXe_BY9Y&feature=player_embedded how stupid do you think we are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIHeBJNFS1g want this here?

http://www.heineraffair.info/ lower, i doubt it

Now that IS a positive solution to our political problems.

Bile and Anti RC sentiments will not win an election .

Truth Honesty and Integrity will ; The Electorate will not forget.

A rubbish article of the most delusional and egocentric nature;
I would go so far as to make an anatomical insinuation of blinkeredness beyond yourself, if it weren't for all the language filters.
But to be explicit, this is a blindsighted smug article simply projecting a very simplistic view of the world as an obligatory moral aspiration of what OUR morals and 'hopes' should be- ignoring that really, they're just yours and few elses.

I think what Australians ACTUALLY want is for politicians to actually take their job seriously. Certainly people who are actually FOR some kind of border-protection policy would have watched in dismay as both Abbot AND Gillard allowed our offshore processing proposal to slip out of both their hands because they were more concerned about a petty sabotage/pointscoring game than they were about fixing policy.

Getting distracted by 'boats' is rather pathetic. People simply don't want a repeat of our most recent and least successfully integrated refugee groups of late (fanatics from North Africa and Middle East).
And you would have a hard time finding overseas countries that would judge us negatively for that- as the USA, most of Europe and much of East Asia are doing the same thing.

For a REAL refugee policy- character check our asylum seekers, and only allow those who would fit our normal expectations for migrants to integrate to have their claims processed here- the others are immediately deported and denied the right to enter for life.

MMMMMMyes, smart Australians...I don't think there is such a thing. I mean, why would you fill the country with people that we don't need. Its like the government wants white people to give everything over to others that means Nothing but a burden to the system that's meant for us! Talk about slapping the youth in the face...

However, they do have just one point on there side, and its because of the masses of white Australians that don't want to work.

There's more value in non-English speaking people that don't complain/go on strike...eTc..these second world people will have ago, and the you know the one's that are just a waste of space.

But 23 million people and technology needing even less, it makes one wonder why our numbers are growing.....it just doesn't make any sense.

17 million! thats the mark to aim for.

Plenty for everyone at that level and you dam well know it.

Have a nice night all.

CACTUS

Now...an idea just came to mind about how to reduce unwanted people, and its very similar to the convict/prisoner problems England had during the birth of Australian. Crimes like rape, murder, sexual offence's etc...and just deport anyone that has an over-seas passport or the country of their origin or just turn Tasmania into the New World Jail house for the unwanted:)

Just pulling your leg:)

Overpopulation is the death sentence to any country and you know that as well.

Once the Mining boom is over, then what?

Centrelink here we come and the problem for more humans spells out quite clearly the trouble Australia is heading in.

Dont say you weren't warned.

CACTUS

As far as I am concerned, there is and always has been only one way to ensure a fair way to restore the economy to an intelligent and successful position, and that is to first get a treasurer who is not so blocked in the brain that he ignores good advice and decency and all the members of the parties obey and honour their constitution, and certainly, not another Lawyer.

The second requisite is that a top personal tax of approximately 70% is applied along with an approximately $30,000 income with zero tax, as was proved by Harold Holt sixty years ago. I realise that when a political party is first formed, they organise a constitution to plan for a successful accomplishment of their project. As you can see, no party demands that members sign any agreement with referral to honouring any party constitution, and I see no effort being made by the party as a whole of doing anything to improve the conditions for the wage earners as should be a main part of the constitution and was part of both the Liberal and Labor parties constitutions previously, and this is why you are not getting the expected support.

Further contempt is due to the “upper class, write Lawyers” of the party, and because of the choice of the particular group chosen for the remuneration tribunal and then giving them a clear choice of presenting the government with excessive unjustified increases which they will claim “they had nothing to do with”. With the destruction impacted on the economy, over the last forty years, I find very hard to find any excuse to do other then to condemn all parties for allowing high salaries and perks to destroy. I blame Wayne Swan for our main problems at this time and the liberal party treasurer when they have been in power.

You cannot keep selling Australian assets to the highest foreign bidder for equivalent parity US dollar bills which are being printed at a rate which makes them worth LESS than Monopoly money.

Until our stupid, greedy, Lilliputian leaders STOP this nonsense there is NO HOPE of any positivity in the Australian economy or communities.

Why?

Because while foreign purchasers pay effectively nothing, WE are paying TOP full-workday slave-labour value in terms of lease-back of those sold assets like water, electricity, roads and any other asset Gillard/Abbott intend to sell to live beyond their means and beyond political consequences when those assets go belly-up.

I know it is expected that BULK immigration with attendant GST increases should make up the difference. But immigrants stick together in enclaves with many covert illegal Immigration-agent strategies that largely defy any benefits to our economy & communities. Further, there are externalised costs in terms of civil unrest and crime which media & tourism profiteers seem to thrive on as if it were Melbourne-cup every day.

The notion that asylum seekers are now given "in OUR "community" visas to shore up such false economics and assuage rich people's guilt is a crime. These same beneficiaries of immigration and beyond-their-means economics DON'T LIVE IN OUR COMMUNITIES. They are rich enough to live in 'Malcolm Fraser' isolation from it, benefit from it and externalise the costs to the majority of hard working tax-paying Australians while getting big tax breaks to trickle down lousy benefits-on-a-string while pretending to be our saviours. Only the GREED is palapable!

Everyone KNOWS. The OCCUPY CAPITAL CITIES movement is just the beginning of the REVOLT against these crimes committed against the Australian populace.

Australia can be POSITIVE when:

*Immigration is lowered to levels that make our cities and our Darling-Murray type ENVIRONMENTS SUSTAINABLE
*Governments and investors STOP worshipping printed US Dollars, learn to live within THEIR means and invest in AUstralian EDUCATION and CFMEU manufacturings
*Goverments buy back assets and thus become responsible at the electoral booths for any failures, any immigration overruns on infrastructure and unjustified price rises and foreign CEO rip-offs.

Vic has a coalition govt; and guess what, hospitals have been hit with funding reductions. That is the way of liberal. they are to narrowly based, This is why AU can't have a stable brand of govt; You have got to be middle of the road. There is a problem with people, who prefer to bye imports, so much of the downturn is australian made. Changing govts; does nothing but guarantee the flip flop of voter choice.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220859

Garum Masala, correct.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220862

King Hazza, correct, we need a complete rethink on "border protection". EG, the previous NZ loony left government had an open door policy which has not been fixed because it is not their problem. Extremist Northern Africans go to NZ & after 6 months they can walk into the land of OZ "en masse" just like all the other unemployed Kiwis.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220870
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220872

Cactus..2, agreed except for one bit, we have been fed this line about Australians not wanting to work by the corrupt, lame stream media, academics, bureaucrooks & politicians for ages but in truth they use "positive discrimination" programs to give jobs to muzslimes, other aliens, women, gays, lesbians & cripples, somebody anybody other than a male of british, european or aboriginal decent.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220890

merv09, spot on, there is no point in a party having policies if pollies get a "conscience vote". furthermore whenever i have heard the term "bipartisan approach", "we the people" got shafted.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220899

KAEP, true & i have a plan to get the money for the asset "buy backs", confiscate the assets of every politician over the last half century who has voted to sell them, along with every journalist, academic & bureacrook who has supported them in selling assets.

But don't think "occupy anything" will be any help, these are the same people who want to help wall street establish their next scam, carbon dioxide derivatives.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220902

579, you mean they are reducing the number of bureacrooks in the health system in favour of a greater % of the budget being spent on doctors, nurses & other health practitioners.

fantastic isn't it, can't wait till they do the same in WA, NSW, QLD & the rest of OZ.

Your absolutely correct "we need to be middle of the road" which the closet communazi, corporate paedophiles & PC, Thought Police from the RED/green, getup, GAYLP/alp, Socialist Alliance will never be.

579 you need to factor into your road map for the future (?) Debt Debt Debt Debt.

An opportunity exists for someone like yourself to seek Finance from the Lib/CP and Banks etc; to start a "DEBT ALP University"

Good point Formersnag, a back-door access for such people via a country we have more open VISA with could well pose a problem.

Formersnag,

If you were actually around during those days and if you were paying attention, the "abominable Whitlam" got shafted primarily because his government was chasing a loan to build national infrastructure, put limits on international resource expolitation, make Australia energy self-sufficient and start domestic uranium processing. It was the last one that our foreign owners would not tolerate that finished him off.

He also had strict limits planned on immigration levels to prevent strains on local infrastructure.

It was Fraser who threw open the immigration doors and invited international mining corporations in to plunder our resources for as little local return as possible.

It was also Menzies who bitterly opposed the Snowy Scheme in the same manner and for the same political reasons that Abbott now opposes the NBN.

I expect that most people want to go back to those mythical white picket fence days "when men were men and women and blacks knew their place" but they were from an era equally as phoney and unfair as many imagine today is.

One thing surprises me about these debates is the masking of the fact that many of these problems came out of the loony Right with obsessions for free markets and trade, foreign ownership and a weighted advantage for business (over citizens) mindset.

The LNP are still pushing for industrial reform if anyone is still listening to Peter Reith. For the LNP industrial reform means flexibility for employers only and policies that widen the gap. It is the mindset of a free market ideology not one in the national interest IMO. Global pressures should not dicate to nations who and what they can trade.

There is no Left in Australia in terms of movements for the overthrow of capitalism. The ALP are still pushing the free trade agenda as CHOGM reveals.

I don't agree with all the GetUp causes but they are in the same camp as Alan Jones on fracking the Liverpool plains and the rights of farmers and agricultural food security. That is a good thing.

I wonder sometimes at those who knock the Left in all this while trying to hide the crimes of the far Right.

Middle of the road is always better but some think that 'middle' means no collective services like health and education. In the US you only have to mention health care to be labelled a Communist. This is loony Right thinking and this sort of deceit is part of the global problem.

So what would have happened if Gough had got the Khemlani loans?

Any ideas?

AU debt is miniscule compared to others. Infrastructure costs money. Those who never invested never prospered. The liberal idea is investment goes to industry for free. The rich get richer without spending a cent. Abbotts mob will flog off medibank, if he ever gets a go. Some here do not know when they are well off. The flip flop cycle will continue, with more hung parliaments.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220921

wobbles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Connor_Labor_Party is this what you were talking about?

comrade whitlam (international socialist) was against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Connor (national socialist) YES Connor wanted to borrow petrodollars to "buy back the farm", Whitlam did not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc5E6pvDv2Y&feature=channel_video_title here is how comrade whitlam brought globalisation into the land of OZ & created poverty by exporting jobs.

http://www.mailstar.net/xTrots.html here is the reasons why comrade whitlam & the other international socialists did not want to "buy back the farm".

YES comrade whitlam had limits on migration because most refugees from communazi oppression did not want to vote for another communazi party.

YES it was Fraser who was fooled into multiculturalism by closet communazis http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236# PC, multiculturalism

Even the Snowy Mountains scheme was not perfect in some ways & the NBN is the most EVIL monopoly the world has ever known.

Both Black fellas & women were better off in the 1950's than they are now. in those days aboriginals at least were literate, had work & women did not have to.

What was so phoney about hard evidence showing that between 1945 & 1972 Australia had the highest living standards in the world as well as the smallest gap between rich & poor?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220922

pelican, NO, the loony left, ruling elites worked with the raving right, ruling elites to rape ALL of the rest of us.

http://www.mailstar.net/xTrots.html the left have been helping international capitalists to create poverty.

the far right would never have succeeded without co-operation from the far left.

middle by definition excludes both left & right.

we had FREE health care before 1972 anyway, both medical & dental. now we still do, but get less of it while billions are wasted on administration instead of health care.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220927

KAEP, we probably would have the same as now, infrastructure projects weighed down with debt going broke, being sold for half cost.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12789#220931

579, FEDERAL debt is low but growing quickly, state, territory, local & qango infrastructure debt is enormous, ditto for both corporate & individual private debt.

the rich have/are getting richer because of eCONomic reforms by comrades whitlam, hawke, keating, krudd & dillhard.

I am marginalized in my community by Politics and my age 67.
My politic was forged through cause and effect deliberations.
I voted ALP once because I found McMahon impossible to support.
I have come to the conclusion that Democracy is floundering in AU and other places , our Leaders are all Stunt Artists .
If you bought Australia would you employ Conroy or Brown or Katter or any of the ALP's to a Managerial Post. Could you find a Position for Julia the Expert who has Electrocuted everything she has driven and has a serious fault that must stop her participating in a real Democracy , Julia by any definition is a qualified Liar , Julia is unable to understand Uberrima Fides hence she will never be able to behave Democratically .
So having been Third Reich'd at the Democratic Ballot Box my suggestion for "Making Australia Positive Again" is "Right the Wrong" make the "Ballot Box work" restore the Electorates Faith in the Democratic System .

Formersnag

You have so much to say at once, its hard to find your balanced view.

Home is where the heart is as far as Iam concerned, and making Australia positive again will take some doing. Iam of the opinion, that our numbers play a large part in our over-all happiness, and the more the merrier is NOT the answer.

I believe the simple things in life are often the best, and running a country this way is a sound philosophy considering the complete mess we have now.

Coming to the end of 19th century, governments all around the world thought growth would peak just in time for their retirements and who takes the wheel after that, is there problem.

Population controls, are the number one most important reasonable duties above all else that humans have as the top predators on this planet, and now all over the world, mankind is seeing the devastation of a uncontrolled species, and the people of the new world is just about to learn what greed can do, when greed is the new disorder.

Australia with its relatively small population, and will miss the bullet that others such as Greece, the US and so on have hit head on.

If the Australian people/government is really smart, they will be learning right now, by the mistakes of others around the world.

Old fools in power, are our biggest threat.

CACTUS

Of course, if the public were allowed to initiate binding referendums on issues, the government would not be able to claim a monopoly on averting things that Australians 'fear'- and are left with nothing BUT positive proposals to make.

Malaysia is not off the radar yet.

Not many really helpful comments on this thread, IMHO, but I have to agree that we are in a rather leaky boat.

Our author appears to be conflicted as to his primary concern - is it our general, or only our contemporary, political quagmire; or is it our government's and opposition's inability to resolve our "border protection" problems effectively? I can only make an each-way bet.

For my money, there has been too much tearing down of policy and legislation under this federal government, rather than improving and moving forward - the sad and defective "Fair Work Australia" "reform" being a glowing example. While Abbott appears to be getting lost in a "negativity" trance, Labor appears to be chasing a "dream" of a sweeping vote-winning reform to carry Ms Gillard and Labor to an exceedingly unlikely win at the next election - rather than pursuing modest innovation to keep Aus on an even keel and making sound headway. The main problem in our democratic governance appears to be blinkered focus on the next election, rather than on the long term stability and prosperity of the nation and its constituentcy as a whole.

As for border protection, recent reports on the deficiencies of the detention system are compelling, and any continuation of this system in its present form can only be considered inhumane. There appears to be only one effective, though exceedingly difficult solution to ours and the world's refugee problem - to stop all boats at embarkation point, and to work strenuously to resolve the causes of refugee migration in their countries of origin. Hard sell, harder to achieve.

In Aus, my suggestion would be to establish farms and/or industrial enclaves where asylum seekers may work, have their families together, learn trades, and have a reasonably "normal" lifestyle whilst awaiting the outcome of their claims. From there they should hopefully move into productive employment and safety within our community. Though non-refugees may have an extended stay, at least they may be productive and remain sane, whilst awaiting resolution of their plight. Cheque-book compassion, but win-win.

Serco, a major blunder.

Of course, you should always ask these areas with skill shortages if they actually WANT to be the ones who are responsible with actually providing the 'compassion' that the rest of Australians would be taking credit for- and of course, letting them know which asylum seekers they will be receiving.

Garum Marsala,

You Cannot just Uberrima Fides(perfect good faith) Democracy back into existence after global imperial corporations have eroded it past extinction.

In Roman times UF was code for pulling the wool over the pleb's eyes while you took their lolly pops.

It is NO different today.
But Emperor Claudius found a way and a reason to cut through the BS.
He took a carving knife to the corn Factors and freed the Roman populace from tyranny.

Today the same Claudian approach must be enunciated and then put in motion:
Take a carving knife to the Oil & Coal giants and OReilly & Murdoch Factors and force them to drill and promote:

* one successful Hot Rock GEOTHERMAL well for every 9 Oil wells.
* Pay the US president & Australian PM the same Remuneration as the highest paid CEO in each country.

The last order may seem contrary to Positive attitudes but believe me the fiscal bases are loaded and that move is akin to hitting a HOME RUN.
Untrained minds may not understand but CEO's do.