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The Forum > Article Comments > Ten years on in Afghanistan > Comments

Ten years on in Afghanistan : Comments

By Margaret Beavis, published 7/10/2011

Locals are reported as liking Australia's efforts in clearing roads and improving security, yet fearful of the night raids and the controversial

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It is somewhat pointless, respectfully, in quoting figures "from the New York Times" regarding casualties in both Iraq and Afghanistan. One could safely multiply the numbers by three in Iraq and double the numbers in Afghanistan. No American government wants the real numbers known and no American government is the slightest bit concerned either. Collateral damage covers any number of things, civilian deaths being one.
Controlling a compliant media makes it is so easy to ensure that these numbers or anything that is in any way detrimental to the "war" objectives do not receive any real coverage. No different here as the Likudist Murdoch and his empire feeds the public whatever chickenfeed suits the climate.

It has been a long time since even the poor apathetic people of the US were ever in receipt of anything that has a grain of truth in it and so it will continue. Anyone who has the ability to comprehend how the US works in 2011, where the money comes from, why elections now cost billions as opposed to $10 million, what the real reasons are for this incursion into a backward state like Afghanistan that everyone knows will revert to all those " undemocratic" ways that have been their heritage since time began. Trying to foist US democracy and values, such as they are in 2011, on a simple people, is so stupid there has to be another reason.

Massive incontrovertible evidence now indicates that the Bush Administration, at some point, recognized drug revenue as a powerful political tool to control America and much of the world. Working off the “Bush number 1” model, the Iran/Contra drug cartels, at some point, perhaps as early as 2002, America went full steam ahead on the War on Terror and guarding their southern border with Mexico, as well as “full speed ahead” with flooding the world with narcotics.

Cont'd
Posted by rexw, Friday, 7 October 2011 8:58:48 AM
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Whether you naively believe Afghanistan was involved in 9/11 or are a part of the intelligent majority who view 9/11 as a Bush conspiracy, one fact is inexorable.
“America has built the largest drug empire imaginable in Afghanistan, not just ‘looking the other way,’ but spending millions on improving opium harvests and building a heroin processing industry”
Quote, US Veterans Today.

All protected by the US military, transportation care of the military as well. A great enterprise. Not one poppy plant has been removed. Productivity is higher than ever. Of course, we all know from reading Murdoch that we are fighting those evil Taliban (natives of Afghanistan...they live there...it is their country) with the al Qaeda myth is no longer fashionable

American military and intelligence resources have been used to distribute drugs worldwide and handle tens of billions of dollars in narco-profits. As they say, follow the money.

The US can always rely on countries like Australia to ‘tag along’ and give it some credibility. With Howard and his sycophantic nature, it was easy, Butter up the “man of steel” and he was panting at their feet. We have been doing it for years. Every warlike dalliance has had a compliant Australian government in there, boots and all, with the explanations for public consumption well rehearsed, as with the current so-called ‘leader’ who parrots once again as did Howard, then Rudd, that Australia will “stay the course’.

In other words, jump to the dictates of the world’s #1 terrorist.

The US economy just cannot exist without a warlike environment in which to hide their real activities, to contribute perhaps over 20% of their employment numbers to military infrastructure and the sale of armaments. Right now, they are sitting on as much as 40 million people below or just on the poverty line.
Easy to control people when they need food stamps just to stay alive.

Pakistan is next. The innuendo has started. I am sure that overtures have already been made to our fawning politicians for our connivance to be part of whatever the US is planning in that geography.
Posted by rexw, Friday, 7 October 2011 9:01:50 AM
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OK, so the people of Afghanistan like us.

That’s nice.

Now will someone explain to me why we are risking the lives and well-being of Australian soldiers to fight a hopeless war that, in the end, is none of our business?

What exactly are we trying to achieve in Afghanistan?

This piece in The Australian illustrates what an awful, convoluted, mess we’re involved in over there.

WRONG SIGNALS IN INDIAN-AFGHAN DEAL

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/wrong-signals-in-indian-afghan-deal/story-e6frg6ux-1226159567513

We should stay out of this conflict.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 7 October 2011 9:09:40 AM
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Assertions that "capture and kill" is

an update of the Vietnam's War's notorious Phoenix Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

- containing most, or all, of the elements of the Phoenix Program

should be dismissed out of hand...

Are you convinced?
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 7 October 2011 10:21:53 AM
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Although I support the basic premise of this article, a much bigger questions needs to be asked, was the invasion and our continued involvement in the occupation of Afghanistan a legal act?

My understanding was the UN Security Council should have been consulted and given express authority on who, what and where the U.S. and by folly the Australian Government or any other nation could invade another sovereign country?

One also must ask another basic question, if as the U.S. has stated, the purported 9/11 attacks were a criminal act, why were the perpetrators not pursued under criminal law?, we now have the U.S. assassinating U.S. citizens in foreign countries under Obama’s watch with no consideration of the basic constitutional rights of U.S. citizens no matter where they are or what they are doing. Moral hazard one would think.

Also, it is evident the only true reason for the United States not seeking UN approval for the invasion of Afghanistan was that they knew the UN Security Council would not provide this approval.

Many questions about the war in Afghanistan need to be considered and answered. The Australian public have a right to know the truth, however unpalatable this might be. Wars are always expensive, socially and economically and in this case we have a right to know why we are wasting such money in a truly futile pursuit.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed - Dwight D. Eisenhower", never a truer statement has been said
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 7 October 2011 1:52:16 PM
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Good to see you quoting from Eisenhower, Geoff, a man who has made relevant comments worth reading, perhaps more than any other world leader since that time, Nelson Mandela being the exception. Of course, Eisenhower was a man whose values just wouldn't fit into his country today and he would be seen as a fuddy-duddy when compared to the evils of Bush and his cabal, behaviour which is now the norm. Even worse are the once worthy staff who have become corrupted as well, along the way. Even the FBI is tainted, never to recover.

Give me fuddy-duddies any day.

Those days of decency and moral values are vanishing everywhere. Just look at the quality of our federal parliamentarians; their backgrounds, their vested interests, their behaviour.
Now if one was asked to find a decent leader for this country, a real honest leader we could all respect, try and name him or her. Just one will do.

Sad, isn't it.

Within a year, the new leader would have compromised on everything he/she valued just to gain a political consensus, sold out for a sheckel when offered and it would be offered for services rendered, formed liaisons with the US for egotistical reasons and put aside values for the quick fix. Probably would have lied a few rimes as well.

Eisenhower, seen as a pushover President after the war, but a man to whom his country owes great credit. These days, they couldnt even spell his name, perhaps not even remember him at all.

He anticipated all that is happening today. The beginning of the end of US empire.
Posted by rexw, Friday, 7 October 2011 9:08:20 PM
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Geoff of Perth
<every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed - Dwight D. Eisenhower">

Why are these people hungry and not fed in the first place? Is it America and the western nations fault as is insinuated in these posts. No. It is the fault of their own corrupt and fundamentalist religious and centuries-old thinking, leaders.

Why? have the leaders from these starving and deprived countries who are members of the United Nations, (where incidentally they now have more numbers than the Western Countries)never stood up in decades past or even in the present to ask for the one thing that would have turned the fortunes of their countries around (like China's birth control policies)to ask the rich nations for family planning and medical supply clinics for the women. This would have helped insure the survival of the babies they did have and helped limit over large families thus preventing the situation where there are just too many mouths to feed.

Answer- These male leaders simply do not want to empower women. Had they done this even 2 or 3 decades ago the population of the world would now more likely be at maybe 3billion instead of 7billion and rising.

The pressure of too many mouths to feed and people to sustain for a lifetime is simply overwhelming the planet and these fools still won't change their mind-set..
The population pressure also drives all the wars we see happening at the moment. Like the territorial dog fight we are witnessing in Palestine and everywhere else where there is conflict.

Stop blaming Western countries for the problems in other countries. We are not their nanny, having to pick them up and look after them because their leaders are too stupid to do it themselves
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 7 October 2011 9:44:22 PM
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Rexw
<of course, we all know from reading Murdoch that we are fighting those evil Taliban (natives of Afghanistan...they live there...it is their country) with the al Qaeda myth is no longer fashionable>

I was under the impression the Taliban come from Pakistan. They overran Afghanistan and took control. They imposed such a cruel regime of Moslim fundamentalist law that even though the Afghanistan people themselves are Moslem they were glad when the Americans released them from the tyranny of the Taliban.

The Taliban from Pakistan and religious nuts who have joined them are hell bent on taking control of the Afghanistan people.

As to this article, I agree that it hasn't done America and Australia much good to be involved in this war. The death count is too high.

One good thing however is that while the Americans have been in charge the girls of Pakistan have been going to school for the last 6-8years. So by the time the Americans do pull out at least they will have had some education. And as is well documented, when you educate only the boys of a country nothing much changes for the better, but when you educate the girls of a country everything changes for the better.
So maybe there is some brighter future for Afghanistan there. But these religious Pakistani Taliban thugs with guns, may destroy even that small gain if they can not be kept at bay. Of course when the Taliban stronghold of priests or Imans was first captured by the Americans they had Pornography sites all over their computers. Holy Men. Right!
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 7 October 2011 10:25:21 PM
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Rexw
<Whether you naively believe Afghanistan was involved in 9/11 or are a part of the intelligent majority who view 9/11 as a Bush conspiracy, one fact is inexorable. >

I am not seeing the writings of any intelligent majority here.

In fact I am reading a lot of things I see as factually lacking, showing no insight and nieve.

Maybe it is a case of we are the only sane people in our street syndrome.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 7 October 2011 10:36:51 PM
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sorry should have typed the Afghanistani girls are going to school in my second last post.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 7 October 2011 10:42:42 PM
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I said it ten years ago I still say cit today.

What should hav happened was for the allies to form a syndicate and hire 200 crack pot soldiers, pay them all $1 million up front, then another one mill when both th leaders were captured or killed.

Just think how much better off we would be now, both financially and, how many lives would have been saved.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 9 October 2011 5:37:55 AM
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The truth is slowly emerging even though the presstitutes continue to spin the official lies.

Afghanistan is on an important route for oil and gas piplines from Turkmenistan.It also has over a $ trillion in Lithium deposits needed for the battery industry.In 2001 the Taliban had stopped the production of poppy seeds and there was a world wide heronine shortage.Now Afghanistan producues 90% of the world's heroine.The local Taliban produce it to buy weapons from the arms dealers.They get a pittance as primary producers while the middle men make enormous profits.

There is no intention to end the wars since money can be made in arms,uniforms,drugs,medicine for injured soldiers/civilians and even coffins when they die.There is also the profits from the theft of energy and resources.Then of course for countries that have their own independant banking system,that creates new money debt free,there is the ability to replace it with this international cartel of central banks that milk countries dry.

The criminals now control our Western De-mock-racies.What are we going to do about it?
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 9 October 2011 8:02:03 AM
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Quite a few compelling issues have been raised in this thread, not least being "rexw"'s raising of the drugs question, and "CHERFUL"'s reference to foreign aid for health and education. There is also the question of the role, effectiveness and accountability of the United Nations, and of the Security Council in particular.

Firstly though, I would dispute "rexw"'s contention that 9/11 was a Bush "conspiracy", or that such an opinion could be held by an "intelligent majority" - I don't think Bush was smart enough or stupid enough to concoct such an abomination, or that the US administration could be so degenerate.

The burning question really is whether anyone is likely to be better off as a result of the interventions in Iraq or Afghanistan? Perhaps there were better alternatives, but such is now purely conjectural. We are left with an enormous mess, and a gargantuan challenge.

As for foreign aid, we should all be reasonably aware that world population is heading for a crunch, and therefore aid should probably be focused on female education, particularly in regard to family planning (and business/commerce), as well as youth education - particularly in regard to science and technology - followed by infrastructure programs to establish new industries and commerce. Targetted aid is surely the best option for achieving peace and stability, and conflict the least?

It will be a great day when the swords are sheathed forever, and diplomacy and goodwill reign in benevolence and humanity.

As to drugs - given our supposed advanced level of education and opportunity in "the West", can anyone suggest why so many seem to need to use drugs? Why is it so many cannot get their highs from life, without drugs? Social drinking is quite acceptable, and tobacco - though I wish I could it give up - but why the need for the rest? Can it be that our social and formal education systems are somewhat defective in this regard? Or are so many just weak and pitiful? What is the solution to this shocking and escalating problem?
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 9 October 2011 2:56:45 PM
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Saltpetre
<As to drugs - given our supposed advanced level of education and opportunity in "the West", can anyone suggest why so many seem to need to use drugs? Why is it so many cannot get their highs from life, without drugs? Social drinking is quite acceptable, and tobacco - though I wish I could it give up - but why the need for the rest? Can it be that our social and formal education systems are somewhat defective in this regard? Or are so many just weak and pitiful? What is the solution to this shocking and escalating problem?.>

Alas, the human condition does not change, despite all our newly acquired knowledge of how things work and all our great inventions we remain the same. We have only acquired knowledge, not a change in our biology.
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 10 October 2011 11:09:44 PM
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rehctub
< I said it ten years ago I still say it today.

What should have happened was for the allies to form a syndicate and hire 200 crack pot soldiers, pay them all $1 million up front, then another one mill when both the leaders were captured or killed.
Just think how much better off we would be now, both financially and, how many lives would have been saved.>

I totally agree with your above statement, rehctub. Terrorism is an entirely different kind of war to conventional warfare and it needs to be fought using the same hit and run tatics. Tell that to the civil libertarians and people like Julian Assange who think it's good to reveal state secrets. Much better
for America to carry out a couple of well placed retaliatory strikes than commit to the horrendous deathtoll of all out war. At this point perhaps there might only be a few hundred dead, rather than tens of thousands.
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 10 October 2011 11:46:18 PM
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Cherful thinks the Taliban came from Pakistan. They did insofar as they were young men from Afghanistan who received a basic minimalist education there as refugees during the 1980s in the madrassahs, learning about the Wahhabi/Deobandi version of Islam. After the Russians left Afghanistan and the great powers lost interest, the warlords went back to fighting each other again. The Taliban emerged from around Kandahar under Mullah Omar and rapidly took control of the country when people were just sick of war and insecurity. The US had no trouble negotiating with them over oil and gas pipelines but they made the mistake of hosting Osama Bin Laden after he was expelled from Sudan. Following 11/9 (why can't Americans get the date right ?), the US military felt it was easier to target Afghanistan than Saudi Arabia, although of course most of the hijackers were Saudis, and none were Afghans.

Sadly the only reason the ADF is in Afghanistan is because wherever the US military go, we follow, and because John Howard was in Washington on 11/9 so felt this was an appropriate response for Australia to support the USA. As in Viet Nam, the Americans give us a province of our own and of course we are told everything is going well there, but Uruzgan is not the whole country and some of the more recent reports are pretty frank about the reality there.

Wish I could still be around in 2050 or so when we re-evaluate the whole conflict from a historical perspective !
Posted by Pedr Fardd, Monday, 17 October 2011 12:15:21 PM
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