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The Forum > Article Comments > The problem with sustainability > Comments

The problem with sustainability : Comments

By Jim Gall, published 16/9/2011

Sustainability is simply thinking about the future.

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Very interesting Yabby. I thought that you and I have basically agreed on this issue over the years.

I’m not blaming the corporate sector. I understand the motives for bigger markets, business growth and ever-bigger profits.

The problem lies fundamentally with government. It is afterall supposed to be one of the primary roles of government to protect our future wellbeing and to not allow our environment (humanised and natural) to become degraded and our resource base to become stressed and unable to reliably meet demand. In other words; to achieve a sustainable society.

But governments just fundamentally fail to do this.

You can’t say the quality of government is dependent on the will (or lack thereof) of the people. I think most people would like Australia to have a much lower immigration rate, for Sydney to stop packing in ever-more people, and likewise with southeast Queensland, Perth and so on. And yet our government just keeps right on doing it… and the opposition is aligned all the way.

Most people would like Australia to have a sustainable society, as opposed to an obviously unsustainable one, in which our quality of life remains high for a very long time into the distant future.

Those ‘paper entities’ of yours are very powerful indeed, and are NOT aligned with the wishes of the general community. Not by a long way. And the overall strong bias of government towards never-ending expansionism and hence antisustainability, is way out of whack with the majority view of the general populace.

continued
Posted by Ludwig, Saturday, 17 September 2011 10:59:45 AM
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<< You guys really ignore basic human nature at your peril >>

Yabby, there is more to human nature than just the desire to be rich or have ever-more stuff. Sure, it is a basic human trait and indeed a primary ecological driver in all species, to compete, be aggressive, be greedy, expand your own kind and be highly fecund. But us humans are broader than that. We are capable of highly organised stuff – societies, cities, technology, future planning, etc.

There really is no reason why we can’t achieve a sustainable existence….. or at least there won’t be once we get ourselves past this incredible barrier that we have erected in terms of our political systems.

Our politics and methods of governance are just so strongly biased towards those fundamental ecological principles of greed and expansionism and away from the principles inherent in an intelligent being, particularly future planning. And we’ve managed implement various internal barriers within the political system to keep it that way.

It will change. But not before we have very significant upheavals that jolt us into the necessary adaptations.

<< We kid ourselves that we are above the laws of nature and are certainly not smart enough as a species, to live sustainably in the long term. >>

At present, yes. But after a few almighty upheavals, which I reckon are only just ahead of us, starting 2012, we’ll get the sustainability message driven through our collective numbskulls and it will become one of the most fundamental principles of our existence.
Posted by Ludwig, Saturday, 17 September 2011 11:02:49 AM
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*You can’t say the quality of government is dependent on the will (or lack thereof) of the people.*

Absolutaly I can. Political parties are a bit like advertising
agencies, ie they spend a fortune on figuring out what drives people
to vote for them and in the end, most politicians care more about
being reelected and winning Govt, then they are concerned about the
long term. So people get the politicians that they deserve and
politicians know that when it comes to the crunch, people act out
of self interest before anything.

Corporations don't vote, but politicians know that people put having
a job and feeding the family, wanting healthcare and education services
for that family, above all else, when it comes to the ballot
box. Only once those fundamentals are satisfied, will they start
to show concern about the environment, or the long term, or anything
else that you care to name. As corporations are imperitive to
creating that economic well being, they have an influence. Politicians
don't go giving a Toyota or a Holden, hundreds of millions of $, because
they love them. They essentially do it to buy jobs, thus votes.

If people can't pay the mortgage because the economy is crook, rest
assured that the Govt will be kicked out at the next election.

That is why politicians act as they do. So it all comes down to basic
human nature. People will say lots of things about how they would
like to live. But what actually swings their vote is the most
important question that you have to ask yourself. Not what swings
Ludwig's vote, for like my vote, it does not matter. What influences
the punters out there as a whole, certainly does.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 17 September 2011 11:57:25 AM
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There was once a time not so many years ago when I truly believed that a sustainable world was possible. I no longer hold that view.

I look around and see a large proportion of the population who believes that a god of some sort has given them this world to do with as they please. It's a great pity that they've been so brainwashed (usually from an early age) into believing this rubbish. God does NOT provide! That bit about "don't worry, God will provide" just doesn't wash with me I'm afraid!

Then I see giant corporations who are controlled by a handful of excessively wealthy people who use their power and influence to alter the agenda of Governments world wide. They've managed to cause the average person in the street to believe that if they continue to buy all the mindless junk those corporations produce, they'll somehow end up just like them. Spoiler...... they're simply funnelling your fiat money into their bank accounts at great personal cost to this once beautiful old world.

We're on an unstoppable path to destruction, doomed as a species to suffer the same fate as other over-breeding animals. In good times we thrive. In bad time we die. A handful of very dedicated people think this can be changed, but eventually they'll have to admit defeat.

So spend up big people. Make the rich richer and the church leaders more grotesque. Ride the wave and grab what you can. Burn up the oil and hoard the wealth. If you're very, very fortunate, you'll die just before it all blows up in your face.
Posted by Aime, Saturday, 17 September 2011 2:17:17 PM
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*They've managed to cause the average person in the street to believe that if they continue to buy all the mindless junk those corporations produce, they'll somehow end up just like them.*

The problem is Aime, who decides what is mindless junk and what is
something useful for improving somebody's quality of life?

Is an Ipad or an Ipod just mindless junk for instance? Is your
computer just mindless junk?
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 17 September 2011 2:27:01 PM
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Originally I had intended to respond to this article by suggesting we could all do our bit for sustainability by settling for smaller more eco-friendly housing, solar power, home veggie gardens, rainwater tanks, recycling, smaller electric or hybrid cars, fewer and more modest holidays, and smaller plasma TV's, etc. We could also use our computers, iPads or iPhones to do away with telephone directories, newspapers and a lot of books and magazines - and thus save forests and make more land available for farms or reforestation. But, after examining threads elsewhere on free trade, protectionism and carbon taxing, I have another, broader suggestion.

As Oz supposedly has only around 1% of arable land, is currently riding on a mining boom which cannot last, imports loads of oil and burns lots of coal, is facing a carbon tax, and would like lots more jobs, I propose a bold technological initiative - the conversion of semi-desert to greenhouse food production based on a set of massive thermal solar concentrator arrays. Cost, massive - including pumping of sea water hundreds of kms, solar desalination, road or possibly rail access for shipping in construction and input materials, shipping out produce, and people movement. All housing would have to be capable of remaining cool on the hottest days, and overnight heating provided by inbuilt heat-capture recirculation. Production base-load would have to be solved by new heat-sink technology, by adjunct hydro storage, or by adjunct coal or gas fired power, depending on topographical facility. There would then also be potential for satellite cities and industries, depending on will, location, vision, investment and the bottom line (in future world context). There could also of course be potential for supplying electricity to seaboard cities, depending again on heat-sink advancements and long distance transmission infrastructure developments.

Forests can and must be saved, along with their habitat values, agricultural land and fuel resources optimised for the long term, and people housed and productively employed. Choices are available for the brave. Are our people and our governments up to the challenge?
Posted by Saltpetre, Saturday, 17 September 2011 6:16:27 PM
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