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The Forum > Article Comments > Guns and roses - young people leading the way > Comments

Guns and roses - young people leading the way : Comments

By Jan Owen, published 26/8/2011

We should regard the events in London and other parts of Britain as a call to action about how we are responding to the disenfranchised, the alienated, the excluded, the marginalised.

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Well we can expect the problem to get much worse, if this lot have any say in things.

Recommending even more of the same, that caused the problem seems to be order of the day.

Be careful where you walk, the fairies have escaped, & the fairy floss is getting hard to wade through.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 27 August 2011 9:48:04 AM
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I have the greatest trouble with both the article and most of the comments. I worked for years in Stepney in the old East End of London.
It was a tough place - try the Krays brothers for size - and there was a remarkable amount of petty larceny amongst the teenagers (and others of course). And the odd murder complete with concrete wellies. But there was never, ever, anything remotely like what happened up the road in Tottenham and elsewhere. Even the most criminal gang types were very jealous of their patch.

There was/is no political background to these riots. It was plain straight forward criminality. It was fun. It was theft. It was aggression.
I agree that there are few role models an society. Have there ever been that many in 'rough areas'? But I cannot accept that they do not know that the behaviour was wrong. Period.
I do agree with Pericles on one thing. That is the feeble level of expectation in education. (That applies here of course as well.). As a part of the feeble limp wristed education there is little discipline, education must be 'fun'; and worst of all must be 'relevant'. Relevant to what, who to and when is beyond me.
The dishing out of blame to all and sundry except the perpetrators is not realistic. It is a thought for some that even Phillip Adams in todays Australian (shhhh, Murdoch) recognises that what went on was simple criminality.
Posted by eyejaw, Saturday, 27 August 2011 4:27:50 PM
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Good post by "eyejaw", providing a much more realistic appraisal than those who wish to provide excuses for what can only be regarded as totally unacceptable behaviour by any segment of society. As for shifting blame to the police or the pollies or to the rest of us - forget it. What we have here is clear proof that our society is in dire need of deep-seated structural reform, and not just our Western society, but world-wide.

We have become soft, and are so bedazzled by "the information age" that we are rapidly losing track of the dark and dirty basic facts of life on earth. There are too many people in the world, there are too many underprivileged who aspire unrealistically to the unsustainable "illusion" of the carefree affluent "Western" lifestyle, and the penalties for misbehaviour are way too lenient.

Unfortunately things have gone too far for a compassionate approach, and all that's left is to get tough - with everyone taking full responsibility for their own actions - or the future can only be far worse than the present.

Reform, yes, but where to begin? In education and in the enforcement of discipline, certainly, and in combatting drugs and binge drinking and all forms of anti-social behaviour, in outlawing gangs, in getting tough on rotten parents and rotten public officials, by gaoling white-collar scam-merchants and wall-street larcenists, and by tackling the foundations of unrest in all regions of this shrinking world.

How far to go? Is the Libyan intervention overdone? Or, should the UN go whole hog on all the tyrants and despots? Should radical Islam be outlawed - given the latest suicide bombing in Nigeria on a UN compound, or the likes of Al Shabaab (spelling?) in Somalia? Should Robert Mogabe be tried for crimes against humanity?

It is time for a world perspective, for a more realistic approach to international relations, world trade, opportunity, and multiculturalism.
Posted by Saltpetre, Saturday, 27 August 2011 6:53:55 PM
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Where does 'simple criminality' come from? Is in the genes? It is easier to 'blame' simple criminality than to understand the complexity of 'human nature'. The old question, is it nature or nurture has been answered; it is always both. There is no dichotomy.

Human nature is a survival machine; allowing us to adapt to every environment we have come across. It is diverse and encompasses the capacity to produce any sort of behaviour, given an environment that supports that behaviour. If the environment doesn't support good behaviour, it takes more effort for the individual to behave well.

It is in human nature to be 'criminal' and 'lazy' and it is in human nature to want a simple and easy explanation for bad behaviour. But the explanation is not easy. The only certainty is that there is an interaction between human nature and the environment and if you change the environment you can change human behaviour.

In the west, due to policies from both right and left, conservative and liberal ideas, the environment have created a highly complex culture. Consequently, it has become far more difficult for some types of human natures - those with a tendency to high levels of anxiety for example - to be able to adapt.

In poor suburbs, there is no support for the problems that develop when the society is too complex for an individual to cope with, depression, anxiety etc are not diagnosed and treated. Self-medication, with alcohol and drugs contribute and you get criminal behaviour.

Reform begins with us taking a step back from politically and/or ideologically based assumptions about the world. People are not born criminals and do not actively choose to be criminals. The ideology of choice is something that the 'poor' don't understand. Could Murdoch explain it to them in terms 'they' understand?
Posted by Mollydukes, Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:09:34 AM
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No Molly, reform comes from looking at what had been done, & sorting out what has caused the problem.

Anyone with even half a brain should then be able to see the problem. It's not that hard. Look what's happening, look what has caused it, & fix it.

50 years ago a teen age girl could safely catch a bus home from her tech course, through some of the toughest parts of Sydney, at 9.30 at night, in complete safety.

In those days anyone threatening her safety would be locked up for years.

Anyone who shoved a gun into the face of some poor service station attendant would find themselves locked up so quick their head would spin. They would have been much older when they got out.

With the definite knowledge of serious punishment, very few tried this stuff on. It just wasn't worth it.

Today they know that, even if caught, they will be out on bail in hours, & very unlikely to find them selves with worse than a slapped wrist.

The bleeding hearts have caused the problem, almost single handedly, & it is time they were put back in the box, with all the other failed experiments.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 28 August 2011 11:18:35 AM
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Young people would not give a hoot who was in parliament, let alone understand the system.
The problem with the young is they aren't parented. Both parents working, no one home after school.
Parents put more emphasis on living a richness life style, above their means. No wonder kids are unruly and uncooperative. The most important part of their life has been spent without parents. Side step the issue any way you like, blame the system, the fact is kids have never been taught the basics of life, which comes from the parents.
Posted by a597, Sunday, 28 August 2011 11:28:43 AM
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