It's encouraging to see that it is possible to put together an article on the UK riots that is free of finger-wagging and pontificating.

There's one more dimension that I would like to add to the summary offered by Ms Owen.

"We need to set high expectations and provide genuine opportunities, not diversionary or containment strategies, for young people as learners in school."

We also need to start setting some good examples.

Kids aren't stupid. Every day, they see how parliament conducts itself, how politicians are perpetually sleaze-bound, how police are regularly being examined for endemic corruption, how local authorities collude with developers to commandeer any remaining open spaces, how shock jocks inflame their audience to racism and religious intolerance.

It takes a strong individual to resist following their lead. Why should they behave, they might think, when all around them are instances of appallingly antisocial acts and unpunished bad behaviour, perpetrated by those who are supposed to know better?

It is a mammoth effort to break the existing vicious circle, made even more difficult by the "do as I say, not as I do" brigade of so-called adults.

But this pulled me up short:

"With 1 in 4 young people in Australia reporting mental health problems"

That is mind-boggling. Either "mental health problems" aren't what they used to be, or there is an entire generation of seriously unhappy people out there, the very existence of which won't make progress towards a solution any easier.

Yes, it's nice to see someone calmly discussing the issue. The hysteria has been a bit much.

I'd agree with what you say there Pericles, though that '1-in-4' figure is a bit hard to countenance. I can believe that mental health issues are indeed very serious and are on the rise, but 1-in-4? No, I'd have to say it's partly watered down classification requirements and partly a rise in how serious the issue is.

Unfortunately, it's become necessary to get publicity in order to attract real assistance to an issue, and for that you need attention grabbing statistics. I think that having lower standards for how we classify mental illness actually damages the cause in the long run, as people become skeptical of the numbers relating to what is definitely a very serious problem.

(Actually, I think we see similar problems with everything ranging from crime, to attention deficit disorder and even problems with infrastructure).

Pericles

I think that you have hit the nail on the head when you say that "we need to start setting some good examples".

Children in functional families are part of a network that provides good examples for children. A parent in this type of family can point to someone and say to the child, "This is what a good person does ..".

But some parents do not have this option. They are isolated from their family of origin or that family is also dysfunctional. So who or what can these parents use as a good example? As you say, corruption, greed and childish bad behaviour is in our faces all the time from public figures.

And the popular media emphasises the very values that we don't want our kids to espouse. The kids who don't have any good role models are those who are particularly susceptable to the influence of cheap and nasty celebrity lifestyles, that are advertised and glorified by those, like Rupert Murdoch, who will publicise anything that will sell and nothing that won't.

I agree with you Mollydukes, up to a point. You blame the Murdoch media that "will publicise anything that will sell and nothing that won't."

This I find problematic - it seems easy to blame the Murdoch media, but of course they publicise what sells. I wouldn't want them to do anything else. When they do, they legitimately open themselves up to accusations of bias from one or both sides of the political divide.

I blame the public, for consuming such rubbish. Sure, occasionally I'll click on an article headline I know is only leading me to a rubbish article, but I've reached the point where that occurs very rarely.

It's up to us to moderate what we see, and what our kids see. If we collectively stop watching rubbish, the papers and TV stations will stop emphasizing it.

We get the media we deserve. Profit-driven is better than ideologically driven. Look to China for the alternative.

Unfortunately I don't see how this could happen, but hey, I didn't say I had the answers.

TRTL I don't care which political party Murdoch supports. Neither right nor left is a proper ideology, they both need an ethical foundation. And what I am arguing is that Murdoch and other capitalist icons should provide good examples for all of us and particularly those problematic kids and their dysfunctional parent(s).

The young people who rioted don't read the political pages; only the lifestyle pages where they see lifestyles they will never have and people who behave very badly and are lauded for this behaviour.

I did think that somewhere back in my childhood I understood that my betters had a responsibility to set an example. The bias I want from Murdoch is toward values such as honesty, thrift, temperance etc. All the deadly sin things.

About the growing mental health thing. I do believe that the problem is increasing. There will be any number of subtle things and interactions between genes and environment that is causing the increase.

For example, the new type of classroom with lots of colours, noise and stimulation actually creates problems for kids with Asperger Syndrome (AS). AS people can be very intelligent, most IT departments are full of them but they learn best in a structured and simple environment.

Its not that we are lowering standards for diagnosis. The problematic behaviours are increasing because the environment we provide is more and more complex than it was in the past and so increasingly difficult for some to negotiate.

And furthermore TRTL you say that it is up to us to moderate what our children see and hear and that's fine for you if..

1. you live in a suburb where most people have jobs and a nice house so that the examples of good behaviour that your children see outnumber the bad examples. It is not a matter of choice for some of us where we live.

There is plenty of evidence from psychology that the wider environment and not just the home environment has a significant influence on a child's development. Obviously, if one lives in a poor suburb it is difficult to control what magazines and tv shows that one's child has access to - unless one locks them up of course.

Over the past few decades our suburbs have become mono-cultures and so the children of the poor and dysfunctional have no access to the examples of the well-off and functional families that used to live down the street.

The only examples of a decent family life for some kids come to them from the media and Rupert Murdoch has a responsibility to provide more of these examples and I have a right to ask that he cease to support porn and violence.

2. your child is 'neuro-typical' and does not have a brain type that is more vulnerable to some messages. For example children who have a brain type that predisposes them to over-eating are much more difficult to influence than children like mine, who tend to not eat when they are stressed. That doesn't mean I am better at controlling my kids eating habits. I'm just lucky that they didn't get those sort of genes.

Get over your ideology. Profit driven is not better than ethically and scientifically driven. Increasingly the science of psychology shows that we are not coping with a profit driven society.

Well we can expect the problem to get much worse, if this lot have any say in things.

Recommending even more of the same, that caused the problem seems to be order of the day.

Be careful where you walk, the fairies have escaped, & the fairy floss is getting hard to wade through.

I have the greatest trouble with both the article and most of the comments. I worked for years in Stepney in the old East End of London.
It was a tough place - try the Krays brothers for size - and there was a remarkable amount of petty larceny amongst the teenagers (and others of course). And the odd murder complete with concrete wellies. But there was never, ever, anything remotely like what happened up the road in Tottenham and elsewhere. Even the most criminal gang types were very jealous of their patch.

There was/is no political background to these riots. It was plain straight forward criminality. It was fun. It was theft. It was aggression.
I agree that there are few role models an society. Have there ever been that many in 'rough areas'? But I cannot accept that they do not know that the behaviour was wrong. Period.
I do agree with Pericles on one thing. That is the feeble level of expectation in education. (That applies here of course as well.). As a part of the feeble limp wristed education there is little discipline, education must be 'fun'; and worst of all must be 'relevant'. Relevant to what, who to and when is beyond me.
The dishing out of blame to all and sundry except the perpetrators is not realistic. It is a thought for some that even Phillip Adams in todays Australian (shhhh, Murdoch) recognises that what went on was simple criminality.

Good post by "eyejaw", providing a much more realistic appraisal than those who wish to provide excuses for what can only be regarded as totally unacceptable behaviour by any segment of society. As for shifting blame to the police or the pollies or to the rest of us - forget it. What we have here is clear proof that our society is in dire need of deep-seated structural reform, and not just our Western society, but world-wide.

We have become soft, and are so bedazzled by "the information age" that we are rapidly losing track of the dark and dirty basic facts of life on earth. There are too many people in the world, there are too many underprivileged who aspire unrealistically to the unsustainable "illusion" of the carefree affluent "Western" lifestyle, and the penalties for misbehaviour are way too lenient.

Unfortunately things have gone too far for a compassionate approach, and all that's left is to get tough - with everyone taking full responsibility for their own actions - or the future can only be far worse than the present.

Reform, yes, but where to begin? In education and in the enforcement of discipline, certainly, and in combatting drugs and binge drinking and all forms of anti-social behaviour, in outlawing gangs, in getting tough on rotten parents and rotten public officials, by gaoling white-collar scam-merchants and wall-street larcenists, and by tackling the foundations of unrest in all regions of this shrinking world.

How far to go? Is the Libyan intervention overdone? Or, should the UN go whole hog on all the tyrants and despots? Should radical Islam be outlawed - given the latest suicide bombing in Nigeria on a UN compound, or the likes of Al Shabaab (spelling?) in Somalia? Should Robert Mogabe be tried for crimes against humanity?

It is time for a world perspective, for a more realistic approach to international relations, world trade, opportunity, and multiculturalism.

Where does 'simple criminality' come from? Is in the genes? It is easier to 'blame' simple criminality than to understand the complexity of 'human nature'. The old question, is it nature or nurture has been answered; it is always both. There is no dichotomy.

Human nature is a survival machine; allowing us to adapt to every environment we have come across. It is diverse and encompasses the capacity to produce any sort of behaviour, given an environment that supports that behaviour. If the environment doesn't support good behaviour, it takes more effort for the individual to behave well.

It is in human nature to be 'criminal' and 'lazy' and it is in human nature to want a simple and easy explanation for bad behaviour. But the explanation is not easy. The only certainty is that there is an interaction between human nature and the environment and if you change the environment you can change human behaviour.

In the west, due to policies from both right and left, conservative and liberal ideas, the environment have created a highly complex culture. Consequently, it has become far more difficult for some types of human natures - those with a tendency to high levels of anxiety for example - to be able to adapt.

In poor suburbs, there is no support for the problems that develop when the society is too complex for an individual to cope with, depression, anxiety etc are not diagnosed and treated. Self-medication, with alcohol and drugs contribute and you get criminal behaviour.

Reform begins with us taking a step back from politically and/or ideologically based assumptions about the world. People are not born criminals and do not actively choose to be criminals. The ideology of choice is something that the 'poor' don't understand. Could Murdoch explain it to them in terms 'they' understand?

No Molly, reform comes from looking at what had been done, & sorting out what has caused the problem.

Anyone with even half a brain should then be able to see the problem. It's not that hard. Look what's happening, look what has caused it, & fix it.

50 years ago a teen age girl could safely catch a bus home from her tech course, through some of the toughest parts of Sydney, at 9.30 at night, in complete safety.

In those days anyone threatening her safety would be locked up for years.

Anyone who shoved a gun into the face of some poor service station attendant would find themselves locked up so quick their head would spin. They would have been much older when they got out.

With the definite knowledge of serious punishment, very few tried this stuff on. It just wasn't worth it.

Today they know that, even if caught, they will be out on bail in hours, & very unlikely to find them selves with worse than a slapped wrist.

The bleeding hearts have caused the problem, almost single handedly, & it is time they were put back in the box, with all the other failed experiments.

Young people would not give a hoot who was in parliament, let alone understand the system.
The problem with the young is they aren't parented. Both parents working, no one home after school.
Parents put more emphasis on living a richness life style, above their means. No wonder kids are unruly and uncooperative. The most important part of their life has been spent without parents. Side step the issue any way you like, blame the system, the fact is kids have never been taught the basics of life, which comes from the parents.

a597....I thank you for your input, and your not far off the mark. Its the young that needs to break the old ways of doings things.

Let me explain......The world does not need any more people! If I could give the world birth-control-pills at every given thought of sex.....3/4 of the world problems are over.

See! The youth are up-set because the planet is full.....and this is where the world is in the youths hands. So we now know the world is over-populated, well clap clap again:) If the youth want to live the dream, DON'T HAVE ANY MORE BABIES.....and if you think this is bull...t! Go ahead! have your baby.....and it will be your responablity, when your child has nowhere to go.......please have a think.

So we take a century off, on not making anymore people! OOOW! cant you people have sex with-out the micro world engaging? or you just as thick as the money-junkies are inconstant, when managing HR and the rest?

The equation is simple...The maths don't lie:)

SPY.V.SPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey9tJUxMk8Q&feature=related

This one just popped in:) Funny old world.

SPY.V.SPY

Excellent, well argued article Jan Owen. You ought to reprint this as many times as you can.

"...young people are often frustrated by the apathy and lack of support of adults and the institutions of government and business, who frankly won't invest in or recognise them until they are 'grown up."

Also see Bronwyn Lind, Don Weatherburn's wotk in "Delinquent-prone communities".
http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=+Bronwyn+Lind%2C+Don+Weatherburn&pbx=1&oq=+Bronwyn+Lind%2C+Don+Weatherburn&aq=f&aq

Thank You. Inspirational to read something so positive and promoting so much common sense.

http://www.miacat.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bktiVR-WYZ4&feature=related

Thank You. Inspirational to read something so positive and promoting so much common sense.

http://www.miacat.com/
Posted by miacat, Monday, 29 August 2011 12:40:05 AM

And I couldn't of said it better myself Miacat.

The world just needs a bit of thought.

SPY.V.SPY

After reading yet another 'they're-not-bad-just-misunderstood' load of ivory tower malarkey, try reading some dispatches from the coalface for a cold dose of reality salts:

http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/

'Whilst I abhor the inequality that exists in the UK and indeed am a victim of it myself, it doesnt naturally follow on that this gives me a reason to loot shops, commit acts of violence and terrorise my community. The poverty that exists in the UK is of a relative kind. The welfare state in Britain provides the underclass with housing, generous benefits, education and a health service, all free of charge and the envy of sub-saharran Africa. I am not saying they have an ideal life, but their basic needs and those of their children are met. Whilst working in Supported Housing with today's poor I observed how many of them were so well fed they were obese and that they had money to spend on cheap alcohol and recreational drugs. The majority of them also possessed luxury electronic goods such as laptops, playstations and the newest in mobile phones. They may be poor compared to the folks that live in the mansion on the hill, but they are wealthier than the monarchs of medieval Europe.'