Government is an abstract word.

To make it real it should have a name and address.

Imagine one sending a letter or phoning or whatever to a government.

It is utter nonsense talking of responsibility and government

The only partnership governments should be having with private businesses is consultation and project work.

Just like in the old days- government needed a highway, wrote a contract with a company to do it, and paid off their costs to them through tolls until they were paid off; the result was there were no consequences of the road/tunnel "not making a profit"- at worst the contractors might ask for interest (if the government is stupid enough to let them)- which still worked out cheaper and with a lot less mess of companies going into deficit over it.

Private companies should have absolutely ZERO stakes in a public utility- ALWAYS. All we end up with is infrastructure that costs more, is motivated to do less, is less accountable and ultimately the cost builds up on a state level, and harms the rest of the business world by extorting everyone to use their monopoly service.
Unless you count Sydney Airport, The Lane Cove Tunnel, Telstra and Qantas as success stories. Which would require you to have extraordinarily poor English and confused the word "success" with "absolute scandalous failure"

Bravo King Hazza: Lets do things the way that wastes less time, work and capital and delivers the best value. Adding layers of finance profit, consulting profit and general complexity (the modern PPP) is an utter failure.
For all natural monopolies the greatest efficiencies are when the government owns and manages 100% of the entity. The work is carried out by private firms who charge reasonable rates with competition to ensure rorting and waste are kept minimal.
PPPs using expensive private finance are all about profiteering and jobs for the boys, certainly *not* efficiency and productivity!

It thinks that is a bit indulgent in Naiveté King Hazza; you left out the Oligarchs that had been paid handsomely , and to think such a contract would or are awarded on merit, that is another bit of mistaken opinion; You could never gain such a contract ; and even if you were able too , your some of money to pay Beaurocrats would send you broke before you actually got to start the job;

In most instances where these contract are awarded , I would strongly suggest that someone make a grand effort to investigate the Managerial levels within some of these Monopoly privileged entities;

And just like the Japanese Nuclear disaster would have been prevented if the Alleged company was to construct a wall as it was intended 25 years ago A Engineers report you will never see , but spending money on something other than them selves was simply out of the question; But yes the Company was laced with ?

Yes , ex politicians and Beaurocrats ; A world wide phenomena ;

So spot the legitimate business man or a real Engineer ; they would automatically know that when it is Government , Run the other direction , the looter alarm bells are ringing loude.

What hope do us peasants have? , Who do we have to protect us from Government ? simply put , No one.

"You could never gain such a contract ; and even if you were able too , your some of money to pay Beaurocrats would send you broke before you actually got to start the job;"

That's rather strange considering that NSW did exactly that for most of the past century in building and managing roads and other infrastructure- the roads are the most functional in our state, tolls were miniscule and have since actually even been paid off and are now free to travel across (as the contractors only wanted to be paid the sum for their services, and aren't owners expecting to make a business out tolls. And strangely, NSW was an incredibly stable, prosperous and high output state back in those days.
Now, mysteriously, this quickly started to change when the last labor government- who were gung-ho about PPPs and privatization- came into government; and NSW started going into increasing debts, infrastructure shortages, gridlocks and crashes, and is facing all kinds of constant financial problems of artificially reimbursing the private holders of various utilities for absence of PROFITS because too few people are using their utilities (after hiking the price).

And do pray tell exactly what a private company does in this situation?
Oh that's right- it CONTRACTS.

Sorry.

I really don’t know how the answer to the Question evolves; Government is great all hale the Government, and when Government clumsily and in its incompetent and stupid way stuffs everything up; Government is great, all hale the Government. Give us more.
Try looking at it with a theory based in Fact, Eg. State Budget, and the States Wages bill, it is on public record, and that will answer your first question why; State Administration is near Two thirds of the Budget.

So unless you intend to get the Beuarocrats and Politicians to do something that actually resembles Something productive and or in the interest of the peasantry , let alone work ; give them a pick and a shovel ; and set them to work building things ; But that is Metaphysical mysticism.

And the second question, Elections only replaces Politicians, and when you replace the politicians, who is it that NEVER gets replaced.
Second question answered.
Hale the great Cesar - and that is what we are dealing with; The State.

The same as what you would do King Hazza, Not do it, for if you lose your money, who will replace it? And any and all private companies not grandad Monopoly privilege cannot afford such incompetence, Where Government and Monopoly; well there are no such accountability issues, they just rob the peasants of more money. And More and more and more. Hale the great Cesar ; they are great.

We have to overcome the widespread belief that all governments are democratic, honest, competent and pure while private investors are not. The fact is that governments are not wonderful and investors are not all bad. We need to harness the best elements of both for the benefit of balanced national development. Everald

All, I'm not sure if you're trying to make a joke or if you are being serious.

When a private company owns infrastructure, to which there is virtually no alternative (roads, cables, water, gas, electricity, airports, trains)- how exactly are they not holding a 'monopoly' and who exactly are they competing with?

As opposed to a government, who are competing with other parties for the rate-payer's vote?

I really do not know what retort I could give that would not be construed as offensive with that comment King Hazza; but that sounds like an Absolutionist Monarchies, or even a Republican mantra;
But can only say that it is every individual persons responsibility to have at least a basic understanding of Economics and what actually is Politics and not what we think is politics ; and then of course some Factual History .

As far as your comparative Market for votes, yes exactly and well said:More Tax money not spent on roads or your Infistructure ; “Demagogic support”, every Despotic Government needs support from the public and when the public is made ignorant due to the Monopoly control of Pedagogic Institutions; Primary – Secondary – and Tertiary Education (Moral and Ethical Conditioning Gulags), It is much easier for them to go about Robbing and pillaging unchallenged and uncontested.

It has the Monopoly over the entire field of life and Grants Monopoly privilage to who it wants

I suppose if people do not start to rationally reason, and question the actions of Government without instituting the Mythical Capitalisms Corruption and Exploitation envy garbage, then we are in for a very very dissapointing future ; if that has not already arrived.
The larges and by far the Greatest Monopoly of criminality and oppression and Exploitation in its own self Interest is your beloved Government ; Did you ever ask yourself ; Where does Government get its Capitol? Compulsion and theft.
Have a look at a picture of Industrial Detroit Before , and have a look at the Ghost City of Detroit; Vandalised ruin of today; Government at work. Looking out for your future. So now you can know why you have bike tracks instead of roads; It is Government , so stop complaining.

All-, I could reply, but your own post full of talk of despots and slavery helps my standing look even better, so I don't even feel the need add anything more for the moment;

Especially considering you avoided answering my last questions.

Very well King Hazza, But I did answer your first question; Governments do not compete for your money , that is a fallacy, they acquire your money by compulsion, and if you do not believe me, don’t pay them and see what happens to you.

And I may assume you are talking about Macquarie Bank ? , well, that I agree, and that isn’t private enterprise , and on your terms, BUT, you must understand that No one can compete with Macquarie Bank Infistructure ; simply because it is a Government sponsored Mercantile Duopoly ; and answers to know one , not even consumers ; and yes King Hazza ; The State. Political Economy and socialized Economy.
1850 in France; Listen to this Audio file Written by Freidric Bastiat.
http://mises.org/media/6418/Socialism-Confounds-Government-and-Society

Actually my question was how does any body owning infrastructure compete?

I pointed out that between a private company and an elected government or other public body, the private company competes with nobody because it is holding an asset that people need and don't have a choice but to consume; while the government competes with alternate parties- as one is accountable only to shareholders on the basis of how many shares they can afford to buy, while the other is automatically accountable to the public during elections (although a more direct-democratic setting, such as Switzerland, is more preferable- but that is for another thread- although that is related to the need to counteract corrupt governments doing business with MacBank).

Even compulsory payments are identical to a government owned or privately-owned estate; they assume ownership of the land, and charge you for the right to occupy it; You would be treated the same way under the law if you refused to pay your private landlord as much as if you refused to pay your government; the only difference is the government isn't allowed to evict you, but must instead relocate or imprison you; while a private land owner can get you arrested, but is only allowed to evict you, but not imprison or relocate you.

My point is that the only difference between a public asset holder and a private one is that the public one is actually accountable to its own ratepayers without any adversity upon the ratepayers (that is, public they vote- private they can't).
I'd actually prefer public referenda superseded both- but choosing between the two above, the public entity IS the more competitive.

I understand your view King Hazza, but the point is that everyone is an individual and society is not a creation of government, it is individual ideas that create society, that is what is private property rights, just as human rights; it is the based on the principle of ethical conduct and simple rules and guidelines that are formulated on the natural order or things; Epistemological or leaned things ; That is why you have a computer , food house etc , it did not be create from an Ideological presupposition to exist because it does , be it but by individuals who created these things , not by superstition based on Ideological metaphysical mysticism.
The word public is an anathema in political terminology; it is a substitute word for Individuals who make society, who create society and the things you have today; human interaction, that is how it is and not politics Omniscient fantasy ; there lay the paradigm .

But the fact is, infrastructure is *rightfully* the property of the sum of its users (the public);
As such, it is most ideally placed in public control, be it through a direct-democratic system, or failing that, an authority that answers to public votes.
The alternative- allowing it be privately owned, creates a vastly stronger and less accountable monopoly

Well if it is a business then the whole Idea is to provide services to the consumer, products and services, the owner will have engaged in the most productive and efficient means possible; one is to raise capital to service and update the mechanisms that may be deployed to sustain such a business; and on the other hand as you have noted; Airport, You are by compulsion to pay what the owner demands, and in a some , Sydney Airport is the most expensive and inefficient Airport in the world ;
Who can compete? No One.
Then we look at the Electricity market ; My example in Japan , and systematically the same model exists worldwide;
But Australia, our network was built on Tax dollars, in turn becomes a safe Haven for Political exploitation and a cash cow, over many years moneys have been stolen by political parties and used for their own gains at the expense of the entire Collective who depend on the network are now compelled to pay exorbitant and ridicules and inflated costs; Now add corrupt philosophy of environmentalism and extortion.
Again this is the Political Means ; Theft and Predation.
If that was a private business , totally free of Government intervention who had conducted their business like that , then expect a lot of people would be convicted of some serious fraud charges; and of course the collapse of the business; Not so with Government, they Just raise the cost and compel the people as Collective to pay More and More and More until ; Who can afford it? No one; Who can compete with it ? No one ,
And that is not providing services on a free market for consumers
And who is ever held accountable for their criminal conduct ? No One.
And that is the collective society in retrogression

It still remains that it would remain the same for any entity controlling the same assets would be in the exact same position to charge a compulsory fee to 'use' the service. As the asset is a vital entity that people can't afford not to use regardless of how badly the service is provided (Telstra, Sydney Airport, Qantas, Lane Cove Tunnel, Sydney Ferries, power supply etc), the only thing the owners of these assets need to do is impose costs where they can get away with, and people will be forced to pay for them knowing that alternatives aren't really accessible. It doesn't matter whether they are a government enforcing default power or a private company that merely bought it- once they own it they gain default power to rip off the people that use their asset.

The only difference is how accountable that entity is to the public, which at the moment is either
1- governments- which are hardly accountable at all- but being in their possession means the asset is also liable to be improved when a better party or stronger government-regulating legislation or constitutional entries are placed, or of course, when democracy in the country actually starts to increase and publics get more of a say (our main parties do NOT like this notion- but at the end of the day they will be forced to accept this if such a vote or party passes through.
2- a private business, which is not accountable to the public at all (being the whole point a business is supposed to be private after all), and by being in their possession will remain their personal property until either the business is forced to sell it or relinquish it.

The problem with the theory of collectivism is in a sense oxymoronic ; there is not a singular doctrine , nor ever a doctrine that could ever work especially when the basis of such Ideology is based on a bias that does not measure to ratiocination , but is enforced by thuggery force and compulsion ;
It well contradict your Ideas of what is Collectivism, but you must realise that there is near three hundred years of Social experimentations; You can simply read or listen to any books written in the early eighteenth century; from France – Germany- England etc, etc where you will learn that democracy is nothing other than that form which in principle was the realm of the Monarch, but is the final centralisation of Power –
Look at it this way, common conspiracy theory in regards to Masons – etc and the Icon such as the Pyramids in Egypt;
In the evils of the Ideological they see that the Egyptian Empire of those days is the premise of which society be ordered ; It not be an Icon of achievement , but that of the perfect State , the Statism of servitude of its people to serve the elite classes who consider themselves the divinity of omniscience.
Democracy and the Majority rule , as it was in the Greek days , as it was in the Roman days , as it was in Germany asserts the eventual collapse of societies as Political and its own people plunder society as if it is their divine right to violate the Rights of Individuals and personal property to usurp it for their own gains; We can see why there is collapse
We cannot disregard historical fact because it does not fit the Idea of a Chimera as the bate to rob people of their own reasoning ability.

Again,
http://mises.org/media/2648/The-Law

Now you are trying to imply what "democracy" is by referring to monarchical systems (Germany under the Kaiser?)
Let alone to imply Athenian democracy, Roman Democracy, Westminster, (and by insinuation, Swiss)?

And even trying to bring in Masonic conspiracy theories!

This just gets more entertaining by the minute;
I'm not even having to do anything to help!

It would be, if anything, more probable, if I were to compare libertarianism to the current system of governance in Somalia.