It seems the intolerance by some Australians of non-Australian customs and tradition treatment of animals has brought this to a head. Appealing to the average Australian's sense of fair play and dislike of cruelty has produced an outcry from some people.

The country folk are bemused by this as they are not used to animals all being treated as city pets are treated. If you see how working animals are treated on farms, you will know what I mean.

We cannot demand our customs and lifestyle be adopted by Indonesians or anyone else, the Islamic folk tend not to be "pet keepers", dislike dogs or other animals we keep as pets, and consider them dirty.

Next I expect we will have the tag of Islamic intolerance directed at us, which is the usual playing out of things in this region.

The Indonesians are once again mystified at their neighbors behavior, once again we are demanding they behave, like we do, civilized you know, by our standards. This is so demeaning for them, to be scolded by Australia.

I am amazed they are taking it so well, and that's a credit to their tolerance and patience for the tantrum throwing Australian finger waggers, and to the efforts of our pastoral industry negotiators.

If you have traveled to Islamic countries, their methods of slaughter and butchering are abhorrent to us, just as some of our customs are abhorrent to them.

We need to accept that and move on, not everyone is like us, you know, so wonderful (/sarc)

rpg wrote "not everyone is like us, you know, so wonderful".

But even we are selectively wonderful - my local rag has today an article warning of the danger posed by mouse bait to "pets and wildlife".

And mice are......? Yes, I know "vermin", so it's ok for them to suffer an often agonising and lengthly prelude to death.

"so it's ok for them to suffer an often agonising and lengthly prelude to death."

So are you saying we have to now ensure nothing dies "an often agonising and lengthly prelude to death" .. ?

So are mousetraps out as well, that can often not be instant or fatal at the first blow?

Should we not bait cockroaches?

What about flies and mosquitoes? No more flyspray? It's not instant either, what about flyswats .. what happens if you just stun an insect, is this cruelty?

Where do you draw the line?

Cabbages?

I can see you think it's wrong, but many people do not, and you can't just inflict our values on everyone or every culture around you.

I for one, will continue to kill vermin, by whatever means available, so what.

You do realize one of the reasons we kill vermin, is to reduce disease, sickness and death in our own species, don't you?

Or do you subscribe to not killing anything, like a Jain in India and even wear a mask to prevent accidentally inhaling an insect?

So on your question of mice .. yes, it's OK.

The Indonesians do in fact have something to complain about. Australia
is clearly a sovereign risk and cannot be relied on. Indonesia's
food security would matter to Indonesia.

Ludwig should have had the courtesy to contact his Indonesian
counterpart explaining his reasons, when Australia banned
the trade over night, without warning.

Australia should have explained the rules some time ago, not
invented them as we go along.

In diplomacy how you say things matters, not just what you say.
Lets face it, we got it wrong

The interesting thing for me is the brilliant PR coup that Lyn White and her associates were able to achieve. White is listed on the Animals Australia website as Communications Director and has long experience in animal rights activism. She was able not only to get her story onto Four Corners but to do so in the dry season in Northern Australia, the only time in the year that live cattle exports to Indonesia can proceed. This timing guaranteed maximum disruption, especially given a weak Minister like Joe Ludwig.

The quality of the footage suggests her work was well funded and the subsequent flood of Get Up inspired emails of protest to the Minister suggests a well planned and managed campaign. Similarly, White's recent appearances on television standing behind Andrew Wilkie as he calls for a halt to live animal exports suggests that the political and public relations sophistication of animal rights activism is reaching new levels.The next question is: who is paying for it all?

Amicus wrote "I can see you think it's wrong, but many people do not, and you can't just inflict our values on everyone or every culture around you".

I'm not trying to inflict my, or our, values on anyone let alone everyone: I did not even express my values, just tried to point out the arrant hypocrisy of those who object to one form of cruelty to animals but embrace another.

There are less cruel methods of killing vermin, but they cost more, so people kill "by whatever means available". The stunning of cattle and other suggested modification to Indonesian abatoirs will cost more, but that does not seem to be a consideration to so many of the hypocrites.

Further "Or do you subscribe to not killing anything"; I even subscribe to killing certain of our species, but not to doing it any more painfully than necessary, not to humans, not to cattle, not to vermin. And certainly not to unborn children.

"I'm not trying to inflict my, or our, values on anyone let alone everyone: I did not even express my values, just tried to point out the arrant hypocrisy of those who object to one form of cruelty to animals but embrace another."

Yes, it is or can be hypocritical and that's life. We don't live in a perfect world.

So rather than inflict our values on the customers, the Indonesians and others, who have their own customs and ways, why don't we just let them be.

Do you think they see it as western arrogance, for us to be behaving as we do about the way they do things?

In Islam, it is recommended to slit the throat of the beast and let it bleed to death .. while facing Mecca. Certainly not a painless or stress free method, but if you want to argue with the words of the prophet, be my guest.

rpg,

I have lived, worked and played with Moslems for many years. I speak to them in their native tongue and I have listened when they don't know I understand. Almost certainly I know more of Islam than you including their theoretical and practical halal practices.

"Do you think they see it as western arrogance, for us to be behaving as we do about the way they do things"?

Of course they do and they are right. For example, in Indonesia fornication is a crime. A crime well "honoured" in breech, including by me. But I'm not in the public eye, let alone PM and for Gillard to take her lover with her to Indonesia is regarded as appalling arrogance - a Head of State blatantly and openly (presumably unless they have CCTV in her suite) breaking the law. Indonesian MPs may have mistresses but it's not blatant, albeit hypocritical (ain't we almost all in some way?)

I've seen hungry kids catch, skin and barbeque a cat to get some meat; in SA that's a criminal offence! In fact it was seen by Rann as so important to criminalise that it was about the first legislation he passed after 8 years in opposition.

"why don't we just let them be".

I think we should in general, I do as I think and don't know how you could think I don't, if you do so think; the issue I raised was with the hypocritical Australians.

I have argued against and for the words of the Prophet without anyone's ok, but thanks for your permission anyway.