OK, so there are people (like me) who loathe Islam. You're a Muslim and that upsets you. You think we don't understand the "real" Islam.

Understandable.

But guess what? I am allowed to loathe or despise any belief system I like. I'm allowed to subject ANY belief system I like to critique, analysis, attack, contempt, satire and scorn. It's called democracy. It's called freedom of speech. Get used to it.

"Islamophobia" is no more "wrong" than "atheistophobia", "Christianophobia", "Hinduphobia" or "Judaeophobia" all of which practising Muslims practise with great gusto.

Islamophobia is NOT comparable to anti-Semitism which is an attack on people because of their ethnic origins regardless of what religion they practise. Many of the "Jews" in Hitler's death camps were practising Christians who happened to have a single ethnically Jewish grandparent. So let's not have any FALSE comparisons here between a loathing for Islam and anti-Semitism.

A valid comparison would be Islamophobia and Judaeophobia. Every practising Muslim I've ever met was a Judaeophobe. (Not every Muslim. Many of the Muslims I encounter are “cultural” rather than believing Muslims).

It must be hard for the authors to handle that Ozzies have picked up on just what a problem malcontented muslims have become in our larger cities.

It really is a waste of effort to try to civilise these people who cling to the worst of such a barbaric religion. It is a similar waste of effort to try to convince the rest of us that we should even bother.

...Yes but…The nature of truth is predicated on prejudice. What is truth? All are right and all are wrong therefore. Consequently the subjective argument containing truth is negated to be replaced with the objective battle of religious prejudice: and the prize? Well, “Truth” of course.

To stevenlmeyer, Monday, 23 May 2011 8:30:00 AM

You're entry point into the discussion is so timely, and appropriate. The authors should thank you. Seriously, Well done. You instantly lend legitimacy, and a real life example, to the author's claim of a consistent Islamophobia -- and today's necrophilic appetite to speak of the "cultural Muslim" as the good Muslim because they no longer practice Islam.

You completely ignored the content of the article and its argument, didn't even bother to engage with it and instead made this a point:

" I am allowed to loathe or despise any belief system I like. I'm allowed to subject ANY belief system I like to critique, analysis, attack, contempt, satire and scorn. It's called democracy. It's called freedom of speech. Get used to it."

So I guess they are just automatically unfamiliar to "free speech" because they are Muslim. There was nothing in the article that gave you the right to say that. You chastise them for opposing the dominant narration of bin laden's death, and they are the one's not respecting freedom of speech?

Maybe you should get use to the way Muslims use their freedom of speech to talk back instead of apologising.

Another “NonMuslims are evil, stupid and/or ignorant racists” article. Pathetic. The authors well illustrate why Islam is a problem and will continue to be.

Is Islam compatible with the West? NO. Our values are different. Muslims do not accept freedom of speech and religion, equality and separation of religion and state. Muslims follow a barbaric god and evil prophet (and I can say that having read the Quran and hadith) that require blind belief and silly rituals (such as the veil), not morality or justice. Whereas Western civilization (for better or worse) was built the concept of sin and redemption, Islam stresses only faith in Allah and Mohammad. A Muslim can do anything as long as he has faith. Mohammad himself plundered, murdered, tortured, lied, enslaved men women and children, and raped (well, that is according to the hadith – Islam’s own reliable authentic traditions) yet this so-called prophet is a noble example for Muslims, according to the Quran. This, and current events, may explain why so-called “Islamophobes” (ie, normal, logical people) think “the religion of Islam is violent and Muslims are terrorists”. Dahhhh! Of course, people could just be watching the evening news. Dahhhh, again.

Rather than useless condemnations of terror (wink, wink), why don’t Muslims stop the hate and violence against others? Abolish the apostasy laws; end discrimination against non-Muslims in Islamic societies; denounce the hate in the Quran; condemn the vile attacks of Mohammed on peaceful villages and caravan - then and only then will I believe that Muslims are sincere and want peace.

Won’t hold my breath. Muslims are incapable of self-reflection or criticism. To them, the problem is always the other, the non-Muslims. Muslims cannot change. The radicals preach hate and kill and the so-called moderates make excuses and blame others. The future will not be nice.

As I said here on OLO more than 7 years ago, Muslims come o the West and they bring their vile prophet, ideology and problems with them.

PS: Project Granada. A fitting name. That was where Muslims massacred infidels in medieval Spain in 1066, then under Muslim control.

"Every practising Muslim I've ever met was a Judaeophobe. (Not every Muslim. Many of the Muslims I encounter are “cultural” rather than believing Muslims)".

Similar experience; I lived, worked and played with Muslims for a many years and while most Muslim professed wanting peace, that was conditional on the capitulation of Western societies and their conversion to Islamic values, if not actually to Islam. The practicing Muslims males I met generally expressed contempt for Western values and society, and were in sympathy with Jihad attacks.

Most cheered on 9/11 - remember the dancing even in Australian streets and Anthony Mundine's outrageous comments - most would like to see war waged successfully on the West, America and Israel in particular, and most admired suicide bombers; they just did not want to be the ones to blow themselves up.

Indonesia is often quoted as having the largest Muslim population of any nation, but the vast majority are stevenlmeyer's "cultural", referring to themselves as "Islam KTP"; KTP being an acronym for ID card. Every Indonesian MUST profess to be of one of 6 religions, recorded on their compulsory ID card with no atheists, agnostics, Jews, .... allowed.

In good part from these "Islam KTP"s comes the false idea that most Muslims are peace-loving.

Yassir, tell me... Will you condemn the evil actions of your dear prophet? I mentioned a few of the many vile deeds proudly narrated by his friends and followers in my previous post above, but I can easily give specifics.

I assume you have read the hadith and/or early histories by Tabari, kathir, Hisham, Ibn Said and others, so it should be obvious to you what I am talking about. Note that many/most of these are online so I can help you learn if you are unaware of these texts. Just ask if you want references and links :) <--- That is a smurk, not a smile

Please don't try the old "out of context" "You don't understand" "That was then" "bad translation" and "everybody did it" excuses with me. I am too old for silly words or fancy misrepresentations. The texts are very clear.

Or perhaps you would like to argue that the hate and violence in the Quran and ahadith have nothing to do with the hate and violence Muslims do today? Is that it? Now that is an amusing thought!

Jay kactuz

Is it just me?

Or is OLO over-dosing on religious topics? Just a question, not trying to cause trouble, moving away quietly, hoping I don't upset anyone.

I thought this article was extremely well written. I am appalled at some of the responses. I think of the work of people like Donna Jacobs Sife and the Together for Humanity Organisation who work to try and break down cultural myths and stereotypes and build bridges to peace.

And then there are people like StephenLMyer, Hasbeen and kactuz promoting the very opposite.

How easy it is to buy into fear rather than get an education.

ShelO

How easy it is to buy into (feel-good myths) rather than get a (real) education.

And, how easy it is to buy into feel-good myths rather than face up to unpleasant realities.

**

Yassir

I did not “engage” with the article as you put it because I saw nothing worthy of engagement. Just the usual flim-flam.

You write:

>>So I guess they are just automatically unfamiliar to "free speech" because they are Muslim>>

I do not know about the authors but, in my experience, many practising Muslims do NOT appear to understand the concept of free speech. In particular they often do not understand that true free speech gives me the absolute right to express my contempt for ANY belief system and ANY historical figure including Islam’s (probably non-existent) “prophet.”

You write:

>>Maybe you should get use to the way Muslims use their freedom of speech to talk back instead of apologising.>>

LOL

I have never tried to stop Muslims or adherents of any other belief system from publishing whatever they like. Free speech is indivisible.

From my perspective anything short of actual and EXPLICT incitement to violence is permitted.

So “talk back” as much as you like.

I am merely exercising my right to “talk back” to some Muslim “talk back”

Maybe you had better get used to the idea that not everybody is deceived by the politically correct picture of Islam so beloved by self-righteous ABC pundits and the spokespersons of human rights industry.

You're not alone Ammo.

These religious topic overdoses can result in theophobia which could then induce allodoxaphobia and where would OLO be then?

Hay ShelO old mate, I'm quite prepared to help you with your education.

I could introduce you to my son, who had 4 muslim thugs jump out of a car & attack him, while he was walking home from work. The x rays of his skull, cracked in 4 places may help with that education.

Better still, jump in the car, & I'll drop you off in the centre of either of a couple of enclaves in Sydney.

Unless you look like a Lebanese your education will be somewhat improved, if you survive, by the time you emerge.

Another article promoting the religion of peace? I do not have an 'irrational fear' of Islam, so i guess I am not an Islamophobe. But I do wonder about our future and our culture in Aus.

ShelO,
It would help the image we have of Islam a great deal if some of them would just stop killing people, in the name of allah.

What are the 'cultural myths' we have of Islam?

Could it be that there have been 17228 terrorist attacks since 9/11 or that last week alone there were 39 attacks, which killed 213 people and injureda a further 471.

Maybe the 60 pack rapes reported to police in 2000 are also a myth.

Hasbeen,
My son was bashed by a gang in Brisbane and the 3 that were convicted were all from different cultural backgrounds. Are you saying I should hate all people from those cultures because of what was done to my son?
And not all Lebanese are Muslims, in fact a lot of them are Christians.

I don't condone violence and I don't condone racism. Nor do I condone the use of forums such as these to be blatantly racist. Some of you come close to vilifying Muslims in your comments. As for the person who said stopping short of calling for actual violence is OK, NO IT IS NOT!

I am a mother and grandmother and I want the world that my grandchildren grow up in to be one in which people are people first and foremost and everyone is respected for their humanity. Call me an idealist all you like. It won't take away from my sense of self or sway me to your way of thinking.
ShelO

'slamophobia feeds on this reaction, as the persistent denial does not question the foundational premise of the argument: the Islamophobe’s logic. By and large, Muslims fail to tear asunder Islamophobia’s logic, which assumes a particular narrative of history, fixes the Muslim in pejorative terms, and imposes a parochial reading of terrorism.'

Finally an article on this site that says something. I hate it how Osama became the Western boogie man over the last decade. I never accepted the idea that there are people out there who just 'hate' us because we are not Muslim or hate our freedom. What a load of bull.

And the denial there is no irrational hate of Muslims. One just has to read the responses here. None of them which deal with the topic.

Hasbeen. You are an idiot. I hate sharing a nationality with morons like you. What makes your son so special? Crime takes place in this country. Unless you suggesting there are Muslim gangs running around trying to cleanse Ausies then you are a racist moron.

There are today approximately one billion Muslims scattered around the world. To hate one billion people who have done nothing wrong to you, and who accept your religion be it Judaism or Christianity and feel proud of it demonstrates a narrow mind and a bitter character.

To hate anything or anyone for no reason other than the manner in which they dress and their culture is harming you far more than it is harming Islam. Hate eats inside of you and destroys the core of your being. To insult God (Allah) which is the very same God that you believe in is spitting in the wind. Islam recognizes all three monotheist religions and Abraham, and Jesus is revered as great prophets sent by God just as Islam has the prophet Mohammed.

Islam recognized women's right to hold land in their own name and to own their own money. Woman is permitted to inherit from her father and husband on their death. These rights are forbidden in Christianity and Judaism.

The Arab Spring was born because the Arab world has been subjected to colonialism then when the countries attained their independence they were subjected to vile dictators and Kings. They were permitted no freedom of speech or thought, no democracy and intelligence agencies arrested them without charge or representation many were killed for their demand of freedom.

Muslim citizens are being tortured and killed from every corner of the world. The USA, NATO, Islamist, even their leaders. The citizens despise these savages as much as the West. Consider hundreds of thousands of Arabs have been murdered in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan do you believe that this is something they support?

Freedom is precious but comes with responsibility and to spread hate is not what freedom was designed to achieve. Spreading harmony, peace, unity and the love of people is the desired result. But as you say you have your freedom to say what you will and I would be the last person to question that right.

Zack,
You said "I never accepted the idea that there are people out there who just 'hate' us because we are not Muslim or hate our freedom. What a load of bull".

You need to remove your blinkers and rose coloured glasses so you can see reality. Did you not see the hatred in the eyes of those rioting about those cartoons, where over 100 people died. Do you think the suicide bombers do it for fun and not hate. What about the killing of apostates. How could anyone saw a persons head off without hate. The doctrine tells muslims to kill Jews and infidels that wont convert.Have you not seen the videos of the placard carrying demos in London, calling for death to those who say Islam is violent.

The threads subject is islamophobia which posters have addressed by giving their reasons to dislike Islam.

Islamophobia is simply a made up word to attack anyone who critises Islam or is critical of the behaviour of some muslims. The dislike for Islam is not irrational, but has an entirely rational base.

Notice that you,and ShelO, both use the word 'racist' which is simply another word to put critics on the defensive. Could you explain how any critisism of a religion, which has followers of many races, can be deemed racist.

ShelO wrote:

>>..I want the world that my grandchildren grow up in to be one in which people are people first and foremost and everyone is respected for their humanity.>>

You know what?

So would I.

The question is not what we want.

The question is how do we get there?

I don’t pretend to know how we get there but I know how we FAIL to get there.

We fail by:

--Pretending the world is the way we would like it to be and failing to see it as it actually is; and

--Curtailing free speech

I am going to exercise my right to free speech to tell you what I consider a REALISTIC appraisal of contemporary Islam. Not Islam as we may like it to be; but Islam as it actually is.

Note “contemporary Islam.” Ideologies change. The Islam of tomorrow may be different to the Islam of today.

After nearly five decades of encounters with Muslims on three continents, after speaking to numerous Imams, after reading the koran and many ahadith, after listening to what Muslim leaders have to say about non-Muslims – especially Jews – I have concluded that contemporary Islam is an ideology built on hatred. Hatred is part of the warp and weft of contemporary Islam.

I recognise that to some extent this is true of all religions. But right now in 2011, whatever may have been the situation in the past, the sheer ferocity of the hatred that forms part of the structure of contemporary Islam sets it apart from other religions.

The following will NOT change my mind:

--Expressing pious hopes about the future;

--Sanctimonious dismissals of legitimate concerns about what growing Muslim influence could mean for Australia;

--Name calling like "racist." Loathing an ideology is not "racism"

What would change my mind is facts that indicate I am wrong. Realistically that cannot be done by interchanges of <350 words on a website so I guess we’ll have to agree to differ.

**

Ulis, this is addressed to you too.

I dislike all religions equally.They are about controlling people and little to do with spirituality.

Hitler demonised the Jews because of the economic destruction of Germany.He did not see the power of the European banks who also controlled the USA in being the real despots and war mongerers.

Today it is the Muslims being demonised primarily because their lands hold most of the World's oil.That is the reality.It is all about Western/Israeli imperialism.They want it all and will take the world to the brink of Nuclear annhilation to achieve their long term objective of a New World Order.

Banjo. Sorry mate I didn't see the critical aspect of your posts. All I read from you is your silly attempt to justify your visceral hate for Muslims. It seems for many, and this includes you, there is no such thing as unfair behavior towards Muslims. They deserve everything they get.

By the way, speaking of education, you should stop wasting your time online and go learn the difference between critique and prejudice. Huge difference. The former requires, as a pre-condition, knowledge of what you are critiquing. While the latter, all you need is a big mouth and head full of unoriginal opinions. Good on you mate

...So, who wins the war between East and West when (as I hinted above) truth, like the rainbow, is intangible.

Zack you are a fraud.

In your first post you say you cannot accept that someone could hate others because they are not muslim. Then in the last post you accuse me of hate toward muslims. This is, of course, absurd as i do not hate anyone and you have no basis for your accusation.

So is it, no one can hate anyone or can only non-muslims hate muslims.Is that not hate that cause Sunnis and Shia to kill each other in Iraq?

Note you are unable to respond to any of the points I made.

No doubt you are a fraud. This is your first posting, as is Ulis, on OLO, so would not surprise if you are students in class run by one of the authors. Looking for brownie points from teacher?

You need to improve a lot.

Bonjo. Your post above didn't make sense at all. But I don't care you were an idiot to begin with. Regarding my account I probably have 10. Do you prefer to be called a moron under under a different account? Will that improve your argument--or lack thereof?

This is a very well written piece. One of the first articles I have read that truly discuses the links between the Osama assassination and growing Islamaphobia. Furthermore, the link to Native American Indians is brilliant - A point that should be highlighted much more!

As for idiot stevenlmeyer, thanks for the laugh! LOL @ you trying to claim the holocaust was about ethnicity, what ethnicity exactly? Semites you say? Did you know that Arabs are considered Semites also buddy? Please go and read a proper history book! Your justification was actually hilarious; trying to claim that the Jews were ethnically Jewish but religiously Chrisitan... LOL... Thats a new one!

The definition of a “Phobia” is “an irrational fear”. There is nothing irrational about fearing Islam. Islam is the only religion who’s own holy book, and the saying of its own prophet, incite its followers towards violence towards non Muslims.

Islam is a belief system, and it is no more immune to criticism than any other belief system, be it Christianity, democracy, fascism or socialism. And the Islamic faith has much to be criticized for. The way in which its own holy writ proclaims open hostility towards non Muslims is one, and its totally unacceptable attitudes to the status of women is another.

But the biggest problem with Islam, is that its culture is totally inappropriate to the values of a modern state. This guarantees that every Muslim country is going to be an economic basket case ruled by a secular or theological tyrant. Islam’s experiments with democracy are has only resulted in shaky regimes who’s continued existence is far from certain.

The most damning indictment of Islam, is that those countries most enamoured of maintaining its most fundamental tenets, are among the most backward and strife ridden on the planet.

ShelO – yeah, lets just pretend there are no problems; lets pretend that Islamic ideology is not responsible for much of the hate and violence in this world. Let bury our heads in the sand and all will be fine.

Zack – You say: “I never accepted the idea that there are people out there who just 'hate' us because we are not Muslim or hate our freedom.” I suggest you read the Quran and hadith. Guess who said “I am made victorious with terror”? Now guess who the Quran says is an example to follow if a Muslim wants to get to paradise?

Ulis. Pretty lame argument. We despise Islam, the ideology that causes so much sorrow and grief. As to those billion Muslims, only a fool would say they accept others and their religion. As to Allah, are you aware of the brutal tortures this god promises? Not just hell for unbelievers but Allah personally pours molten mental down throats and roasts the skins off nonMuslims (then puts it back so she can repeat the torture). You must be so proud.

There is no “Arab Spring”. Nothing is changing, or haven’t you noticed. Look at Egypt. The Army is in control; its 1952 all over. It is one group of despots being replaced by another. Islam doesn’t accept freedom of speech, equality and separation of religion and state, so there can be no human rights and democracy. Let me be brutal: as long as they preach hate and violence and practice intolerance, Muslims don’t deserve the blessings of freedom – because they reject these values. As Lego said, Islam is incompatible with human rights and freedom – or maybe it is a coincidence that in 50+ nations in the Organization of Islamic States, 50+ are human rights abusers. Maybe it is just coincidence that from Indonesia to Morocco, from Maldives to Nigeria, Islam is synonymous with discrimination and violence. This propensity transcends languages, race and culture.

That part about the rights of women under Islam was really funny. If you have a chance, visit planet earth some day.

Helena, the link between Osama and American Indians is stupid, or rather, there is none. I don’t hear my Apache friends complaining, only a few professional outraged PC-types. Or maybe the Native Americans are migrating to the Rest/West of the World, setting up ghettos and preaching hate and violence against all non-Native Americans in the name of their dear Prophet Mangas? Is that it? Or is it another group of people?

Osama is dead. He was a drop in the bucket in the ocean that is Muslim hate, violence and intolerance. Nothing changes. Muslims will continue to make kill, lie, make excuses, blame others and demand respect for themselves while abusing and exploiting others, and their sympathizers will mindlessly echo every word as they bow to the false gods masquerading as peace and harmony.

Oh yeah, there is nothing that upsets an Apache like reminding them they are great warriors and that Cochise, Geronimo, Mangas and others made the US Army look like monkeys until finally defeated by sheer force of numbers.

Since Yassir has been absent, perhaps another Muslim here or Muslim sympathizer might care to explain to this old infidel why I, or anybody else, should trust a person that says “Praise be upon him” after the name of Mohammed? Once again, I assume that people have read Islam’s own narratives of the actions of this man. Ulis, would you care to accept this simple, easy task? Would you enlighten us poor infidels?

You will notice that the writers ask nothing of Muslims. As I said before, Muslims are unable to reflect on Islam or change. In their view, it is non-Muslims that are always at fault and must change. How dare them say anything unkind about Islam; how dare them criticize Islam and Muslims! Everybody knows Islam is perfect. The horror of it!

Helena

I am well aware that Arabs too are considered Semites.

The term anti-Semitism was coined as a euphemism for Jew hatred. It does not actually refer to hatred of Semites.

The fact is that many of the “Jews” in Hitler’s death camps were hardly Jewish stands. In some cases they had a single Jewish grandparent who had abandoned Judaism before having any children. Their links to Jews – let alone Judaism – were tenuous at best.

They were there because of the Jewish, not “semitic” ethnicity. It had nothing to do with religion.

For a scholarly history of anti-Semitism I suggest “A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad” by Robert S. Wistrich.

http://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Obsession-Anti-Semitism-Antiquity-Global/dp/1400060974

In his well-documented book you will find that all my claims are born out.

I do think you should take the trouble to learn more about the Holocaust before rejecting the claims of someone who, in his childhood, actually spoke to many people who were rescued from Hitler’s death camps. Much of what I write on this topic I have straight from the proverbial “horse’s mouth.”

I haven't been absent, I've just ignored incoherent attempts to shift the debate. Apparently for some the issue is, "is the prophet Muhammad evil?"

Get out of here! Only an idiot would take your bait. I'm not going to reduce Islam to justify itself against your little pigeon reasoning and selective gibberish. By all means feel free to think I'm scared of the truth. Whatever. Meanwhile ...

The article is about U.S hegemony, and how cultural narratives work to justify that hegemony. Hussein and Sahar might as well have just put their names attached to a photograph of Osama dripping in blood.

I thought the readers of online opinion might actually have an opinion, now I just think Australia is more racist than I first imagined.

I'm not here to respond to the islamophobes, I really want to know why the article is under "religion & Spirituality" when it is about politics

That would be right Yassir, it would be foolish to try to respond to the "islamophobes", after all you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, would you.

Have you all noticed that those brave Islamic soldiers in Lebanon are using one of the more disgusting weapons in the Islamic arsenals of war, that is rape. Gaddafi's forces have been directed to render their enemy's women worthless.

Before you start throwing that racist accusation, it was in Bosnia that I first heard of this action by the brave Islamics, so it really is a result of the religious teaching, not ethnicity that this barbarism is practiced.

Zack, I think I have more right to feel disgust at your, or any other apologist for Islam, inclusion in my society.

haha. Yes, it was the Muslim in Bosnia that was the aggressor? Wow. We'll just ignore genocide, and facts, when it gets in the way of unsubstaited anti muslim dribble; so the victims of qaddafi arent muslim but he is; then again what do you expect from someone who can't tell the difference between Lebanon and Libya. You give ignorance a new dimension.

Yes that was a slip, but you must admit that all the middle east looks the same. With a bunch of idiots running around shooting their guns in the air, how would you tell the countries apart. Must be bl00dy dangerous being a bird in that area.

Still despite my ignorance, I've never raped any one, that appears to be just slightly more ignorant to me.

On that matter of Bosnia, I would have supplied arms to the muslims, so they could defend themselves, they got a raw deal there. You should also remember who it was who sorted that out.

It was the US, & the Poms who forced NATO to act. If it had been left to the useless UN there would not have been a live Muslim left there by now.

Hasbeen. I regret you are not a bird from the middle east.

On more important topic. Yassir you raise a good question. That is actully why I signed up for this forum was to ask that question. Why is it under spirituality? Lol.

Yassir wrote:

>>I thought the readers of online opinion might actually have an opinion, now I just think Australia is more racist than I first imagined.>>

Would you please explain to me what way expressing disdain and loathing for a belief system or ideology is “racist”?

Why, for example, is it racist to be an “Islamophobe” but not racist to be a “Christianophobe” as many Muslims and posters on OLO are.

Are you suggesting that it is somehow mandatory to love Islam?

That having a poor opinion of Islam shows some sort of character deficiency?

That when it comes to Islam free speech has to be curtailed?

What exactly are you saying Yassir?

allahu akbar!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgY6N6Qe5EA

(Warning: Extreme violence)

I think the writer of the article misses the point, and instead attempts to deflect critics with a 'medicalisation' of a non-medical phenomenon. (Of course, those who use "Islamophobia" may be suggesting that those who dislike Islam are mentally unwell, but they haven't met us yet either, have they, so they might be prejudiced.)
The point is that many who have looked into Islam, or have had direct experience of it, have not enjoyed that experience, to put it mildly. They may have even become genuinely afraid of Islam through their experience, but this does not mean that they have an irrational fear. They may not be afraid of all Muslims, but they fear Islam as a force in the world. (Personally I think it is a misnomer to call Islam a religion: it is a political system that claims theological justification, as the Kings and Queens of Europe used to.)
To have formed an opinion, from investigation and/ or personal experience, is the only valid way of forming an opinion. Those who can defend an opinion with evidence are not acting irrationally; on the contrary.
As the writer who goes by the name of ibn Waraq says, most Muslims are better than their religion would have them be, most of the time, on most issues. And I add, Islam is a pre-fuedal form of Fascism, and everyone is correct to be very afraid of its increasing influence

Yoo hoo Yassir.

Do you support the commonly accepted Islamic idea that apostates of Islam should be murdered? If not, have you ever tried to condemn the majority of Muslims who do believe that apostates should be murdered? Or is it too dangerous for you to speak up?

Personally, I think that any religion which says that those who wish to leave it must be killed is an evil one. I also think that any religion in which it is written in black and white long long, and how thick, a rod can be for a man to beat his wife with is also an evil religion.

I think that any religion which has a holy book which openly declares hostility and violence towards non members is also evil, and the adherents of such an evil religion should not be allowed to immigrate into Australia.

I also think that a religion which has a legal system which declares that a womans testimony is only worth one half of man's testimony, is living so far back in the past that it is positively Neanderthal.

Would you like to defend your evil religion on these charges?

Apropos Lego’s point above, here’s another issue that seems off-limits within mainstream Islam.

“My trouble started three years ago when I wrote an article saying that we needed to move beyond the simplistic idea held by many Muslims that God created Adam from clay and then breathed life into him…”

“Recently you retracted your views because of the outrage they caused. Could you explain?
My retraction was saying that I misjudged how to go about explaining these things. Sooner or later someone will have to address the issue of evolution - it's a no-go area, especially with the clerics - but I'm abandoning my attempt to reconcile it with the Koran until things settle down. I am not willing to risk my life over this issue.”
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028085.200-scientist-imam-muslims-need-to-talk-about-evolution.html

The key thing to note is that Osama is nowhere involved--- he can’t be scapegoated for this one.

“it's a no-go area, especially with the clerics - but I'm abandoning my attempt to reconcile it with the Koran until things settle down. I AM NOT WILLING TO RISK MY LIFE OVER THIS ISSUE

Camo

I think you put it very well.

To say that those of us who have had experience with Islam on the ground have not “enjoyed” the experience is to put it mildly.

I am none to found of Christianity either but supercilious atheists who conflate contemporary Christianity with contemporary Islam don’t know what they’re talking about.

Note the use of the word “contemporary.” Maybe things were different back in the time of the crusades but, in 2011, comparing Christianity with Islam is like comparing a mild cold with AIDS

SPQR

Interesting piece in New Scientist. I had missed it.

Some of my fellow Jews reject evolution out of hand. However I’ve never seen any of them threaten to murder clerics who don’t share their view.

This is beyond bizarre. I’ve seen some universities in Australia teaching “Islamic finance.”

Are we going to have “Islamic biology?”

Steven, that there is an "Islamic finance" is an indication that Islam is a system of thought which attempts to have an opinion on all aspects of an adherent's life. (You could call it an attempt to control all aspects of an adherent's life, but because they all disagree with eachother on so much it's often not very hard to find someone who will say what you ask them to on minor points, although not on major ones.) Although Muhammad (if he existed, the evidence for which is not good), as a trader, was aware of the concept of credit and interest, he spoke out against them - interest in particular - and so a whole body of thought grew up. Yet because it's found in the Hadith, not the Koran (as far as I'm aware - I haven't finished it yet; there's only so much crap one can read at a time) it almost certainly is not authentic (western scholars dismiss the Hadith as later writings by other, self-seeking authors). Interestingly, Islamic financial institutions fared fairly well through the latest crisis, but then, so did Australian banks, so there are a couple of interesting stories to be found there.
I don't remember now if Muhammad's problems with the jews in Arabia was a financial one - certainly some of the jewish tribes were wealthy, and so may have been involved in finance. Muhammad certainly had a problem with the jews from very early on. The best explanation I've read is that he wanted to be accepted as a Jewish prophet, but when the local jews didn't accept him as one, he turned on them. It certainly makes sense of all the jew-like aspects of Islam - they're remnants of this attempt at acceptance, and couldn't be removed from his religious system after he'd been refused. And it makes sense of Islam's rampant, institutional anti-semitism

The word 'Islamophobia' is used 10 times in the article. It is the sole reason put forward as to why Islam is so dissliked.

It is noted also that pro islamic posters also use islamophobia often and 'racist' as well, without explaining how critisism of a religion can be racist.

Untill such time as muslims begin to look at their own conduct as a reason for others disslike, the situation will remain the same

I'm starting to think Banjo and co belong to some cult who spam forums. Three days after the article is published, Banjo decides to count how many times the authors use the term "islamophobia" --- rather than engage with an argument, Banjo counts. Why?

What irony too, the authors point was about the "excessiveness" of the Muslim

I guess Banko can't use your ten fingers to read, or calculate political meaning, so counting will have to do, and lucky for you Banjo the authors didn't use Islamophobia 11 times otherwise you might have to take off your socks for further aid

Anyway:

Banjo wrote: "The word 'Islamophobia' is used 10 times in the article. It is the sole reason put forward as to why Islam is so dissliked (sic)."

& Banjo also wrote: "posters use islamophobia often and 'racist' as well, without explaining how critisism (sic) of a religion can be racist"

Here are some examples of the author's explanations:

1 “Islamophobia relies on a constant accusation and a permanent denial that assumes guilt.”

2 “Islamophobia’s logic ... assumes a particular narrative of history, fixes the Muslim in pejorative terms, and imposes a parochial reading of terrorism.”

3 “Islamophobia is a symptom of the increased visibility of Muslims ... this visible difference as a sign of their unwillingness to integrate”

4 "bin Laden should be understood as a figure who is dressed up in these phobias, who has been used as a quintessential point of reference to interrogate Islam."

There exits the OVER visibility of the Muslim in all political discussions. Racism has moved from biology to culture, the dominating feature is that white people remain the norm from which we judge others.

It makes sense to me because I'm Muslim. I get it. I also read books. You lot should try the latter before you condemn the former.

anyway you mental midgets can't even spell, and think Lebanon and Libya is the same country, so I doubt you'll understand a word.

Al Qaeda was invention of the CIA.Bin laden has been dead since late 2001.Benazhir Bhutto and many others have said this.The war on terror is a sham.Only Westerners who are glued to the idiot box believe in this BS.

To "Ammonite" and "Neutral"

Religious topics are very popular on OLO and they are always very well represented with replies. If you don't like this situation, then instead of complaining about it, just go and post somewhere else.

Perhaps some innocuous chat room would be more to your taste? Whatever, its a free country, and there is the door.

To Zack.

Yup, I am one of those "racist morons" who does believe that Muslims are ethnically cleansing "their" areas of Sydney. How do I know?
Personell experience is one way, and the first hand accounts from friends who have had similar experiences to myself is another. Another is the fact that Muslim areas of Sydney are becoming monocultural Muslim ghettoes due enirely to the hostility being directed towards non Muslims who are still forced to reside in these dangerous and violence ridden Muslim areas.

Once I was simply walking down Parramatta Road in Sydney, looking for a particular street number. For some reason, commercial and industrial sites never bother to display their street numbers. So it was necessary for me to to park in a side street, then walk down Parramatta Road counting off the numbers of the few places who bothered to display them, in order to find the place I was looking for.

Without warning, a carload of young male Arabs pulled up beside me, wound down their windows, and started screaming abuse at me. And no, Zack, that has never happened to me with any other ethnic or religious group. I could also recount that I have only once in my entire life had to face a confrontation with persons armed with weapons, and you guessed it, they were Lebanese.

I had to laugh when a friends daughter, the product of an elite school, berated me one day on my "racism". The girl had a boyfriend from a public school and she insisted that she be allowed to attend the same school as her boyfriend. Unfortunately for her, the school had Lebanese students. While at school one day, SOMETHING HAPPENED, she came home in tears, and now she is even more racist than I am.

Her mother was another liberal. But her eldest daughter got her drink spiked by a bunch of Arabs in a city nightclub. Her girlfriends prevented them from carrying her off, and now simply mentioning the word "Lebanese" in front of the formerly liberal mother gets her frothing at the mouth.

Obviously, Lego blocks don't build a brain. So, Islam is to blame
for the Lebanese guy who goes clubbing and spikes his girlfriend's drink? That must be Islam's hidden pillar. Or maybe it's Australia's? "Thy shall get smashed on thy weekend, and thy shall fornicate in a club or else thy shall be a loser"

Why is it when an Australian of Middle Eastern origin commits a crime his/her religion becomes relevant ie. Islam, but when a white Australian commits a crime his religion is rarely mentioned.

It would be better to judge individuals by their actions than make broader generalisations about race or religion.

However that said, it is disingenuous to speak about 'Islamophobia' without understanding the concerns people might have about Islam.

While most Muslims in Australia are moderate and live by the peaceful tenets of Islam, there are some who do publicly engage in harmful rhetoric as was the case in the UK when some Imams were agitating young Muslims to commit acts of terrorism. There is a group within the UK who commonly use the phrase "you are either a Muslim or not a Muslim" ie. anyone who is not a Muslim is somehow lesser and can be treated as such. It is happening, there are many examples. The Christians don't get a free pass either if a particular Church has been exposed as fostering evil such as the handling of child abuse cases in the Catholic Church. I don't care what the religion is as long as the tenets and behaviours are sound.

There is a perception that Muslims in the community are not denouncing those who do not live by the tenets of peace or those who have put their own interpretations on the Koran to fit with a political agenda.

It is also disingenuous to posit that culture and religion are not sometimes inexorabley linked and manifestations of that can be observed in the treatment of women in some Middle Eastern countries. In a recent 4Corners Report a young Muslim rebel being taught in a Madrassa in remote Afghanistan stated that if women are allowed outside the home then they also deserve to be killed. This is the sort of brainwashing that many people are concerned about. It is foolish to ignore those fears and concerns.

To be cont...

Cont/....

Islamophobia is fuelled by what is seen to be the norms of Muslim practice. Many Muslims cannot agree on fundamentals such as the wearing of the burka as a religious versus a cultural requirement, nor does the Koran say women are not allowed to drive etc.

However, Muslims living in Australia who have escaped those sorts of regimes should not be generalised in the same way that Christians are not generalised. But how to reconcile the broader observations with the domestic status quo is not easy. In 50 years time with later generations of Muslims who have been born and schooled among a wide variety of other Australians of all shapes and sizes, the problems being experienced now will naturally fade but efforts have to be made by everybody.

At LEGO,

Congratulations for being the first clown to post a personal attack against me on OLO.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any *complaints* in my post, merely a support of another posters question with another somewhat rhetorical question around phobias.

So I suggest you take your own advice and go look for the toy brick you are so obviously missing.

Hello to all, and lots of good reading here, and some not so.
To Pelican, I certainly hope the influence of non-Muslim Autralians has a good effect on the more radical Muslims who come to Australia. But as others point out they, like other ethnic groups before them, tend to gather together, and so lose the opportunity to be influenced by other Australians. This is espsecially marked among Muslims coming to Sydney. But I frequently see Muslims families walking the street in Sydney, and only half of the older girls are wearing any headcovering, so they at least are resisting the Muslim influence.

And to Yassir, I offer an alternative explanation of the use of Islamophobia, which I see you have not responded to. Would you like to do so?

And I can recount some personal experience. I lived for a year next to a major Lebanese Christian cultural centre and school and I, along with all of the neighbours, came to hate them. They would dump their rubbish on our propoerty, their kids would throw their rubbish over the school fence onto our property, and on busy holy days they would park their cars all over everyones' property - they even parked an ambulance in at a nursing home. They did this for about 30 years. So I fought back - I put red wheelbearing grease under the offending drivers' door handles, and after around 2 months, they had got the message and left us alone. Maybe abuse from Lebanese is more cultural than religious.