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The Forum > Article Comments > After Bin Laden: next steps to winning the long war > Comments

After Bin Laden: next steps to winning the long war : Comments

By James Carafano, published 3/5/2011

The assassination of Bin Laden is not an end-point but a way station.

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This bloke is Deputy Director of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies and Director of the Douglas and Sarah Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies, a division of the Davis Institute, at The Heritage Foundation.

One of the oldest and most influential conservative think tanks, the Heritage Foundation was founded in 1973 by Paul Weyrich to "formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense"

So we can guess where he is coming from. A NeoCon from way back and a gung ho US empire builder.
They just do not learn, from Vietnam for example, that there is no chance of “winning”.
Unfortunately they have dragged Australia and some Nato nations into the cauldron with them.
Quit while you still have some semblance of a functioning economy and a democratic country to live in.
Posted by sarnian, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 10:10:20 AM
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This reads like paid for US apologist tripe!
1. Afghanistan was and is irrelevant to the "war on terror", they are just killing folks who are "protecting their homeland" (rightly or wrongly) against invaders. Did you bother to learn the history of the US in Afghanistan against the Russians? Further killings there are *creating* terrorists, not clearing them!
2. Guantanamo Bay is an *illegal gulag*. If Americans want humane treatment in future wars for it's soldiers (I doubt the leaders really care) it had better fix it's ways. Do you think China will listen to any human rights arguments from such hypocrites?
3. Fix the inter-agency secrecy and get to the bottom of the management incompetence. 911 could have been prevented. the intelligence was gathered, the alerts raised...and ignored. Post 911 crack-downs have not added to security, but have annoyed a lot of Americans! Adding more disorganised laws and agencies is not the solution: fixing the ones that almost worked is a better way.
The CIA were caught kidnapping and torturing people around the world...this should concern people!
4. Can only agree with this one!
5. The US military is one of the worlds biggest social security programs and it is used to intimidate and bully. For the "land of the free" they have an awful lot of Big Central Government...pity it is used as a commercial instrument to maximise income and power for a very few...hardly democratic. The move to "contractors" (mercenaries) so as to use "commercial in confidence" to hide para-military activities is very shonky.
The US military is also one of the reasons that the US is now spending more than it earns...the "payoff" from Iraq was just not profitable!
Rather than becoming bigger, bader and more modern (which will bankrupt the US more than it is), they should pull back to the essentials and re-think the global strategy...they might find "shock and awe" is not so much fun at home.
It is time now to see things as they are, not through the reality distortion field and fairy tales from Fox News!
Posted by Ozandy, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 10:30:54 AM
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How does one even begin to respond to this garbage.

And yes Graham it IS garbage.

It is a "perfect" expression of the collective psychosis that now mis-informs the GOP and right wing politics in the USA altogether.

I much prefer the assessment of the state of the now permanent USA warfare state provided by these authors. Remembering that is 60 years ago that Eisenhower gave his prophetic warning re the military-industrial-complex

Andrew Bacevich Washington Rules Americas Path To Permanent War

Chalmers Johnson Dismantling the Empire (and his work altogether)

William Hartung Prophets of War

Nick Turse The Complex

William Blum Rogue State + Freeing the World To Death

Tom Engelhardt The End of Victory Culture published in 1995 before
the bogus term the "war on terror" was invented - a
remarkable book + The American Way of War

A quote from another source.

"The mutually competitive pattern of existing nation-states is rooted in the nation-based will to dominate. The competition for world-domination is the primal and only "game" of tribalized nation-states. Therefore, if the existing nation-states are allowed to continue playing the "game" of competition for world-domination, they will, inevitably, destroy all of human culture, even human life itself, and, indeed, even the Earth-world itself - as they have, to a large extent, already done."

I would argue that is exactly what this benighted fool is advocating, as indeed does the Heritage Foundation altogether.

A suitable subtitles for the Heritage Foundation should be: Lies, Lies, and More Lies.
Posted by Ho Hum, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 10:44:05 AM
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sarnian, whilst I don’t think it requires a PhD to formulate the views expressed by James Carafano and to most conservatives the case he makes would be blinding glimpse of the obvious.

That said, the comments you provided are juvenile and patronizing. We can read, we know what is meant by NeoCon, we know what a conservative think tank is, we know what to expect, we don’t need to guess where he is coming from and we definitely know what is meant by trying to shoot the messenger.

So if there is some case you wish to make, a point or two you wish to challenge or a contrary strategy you would like the US administration to consider, we would love to hear it.

All you have to do is put your brain into gear before operating your lip. Otherwise we might be drawn to the conclusion that there is nothing between your ears.

At least with Ozandy and Ho Hum we know there is something going on because they have articulated all the things they blame, no solutions of course but at least it’s a start.
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 10:53:48 AM
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spindoc. No solutions? Perhaps I need to spell it out:
1. Get out.
2. Close it.
3. Fix what is known to be broken.
4. Yes, do it.
5. Think defence, not aggression. Don't be so bloody evil!
Posted by Ozandy, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 11:10:27 AM
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Ozandy, I think I said “solutions” not platitudes.

OK, let’s take just one of your “solutions”, that of Get out!

What is the situation, in which geographic scenarios, what are the problems, what are the possible solutions, which one do you recommend and why? You will of course be required to cover for each scenario, the socio-economic, trade, political, geo-political, religious, short, medium and long term impacts for these.

Then you might need to consider how you address the international issues of NATO, the UN and the EU. Due consideration might also be given to potential political, trade and military alignments such as China, Russia and South America.

Whilst it remains difficult at this stage to predict outcomes of the oppressed and disenfranchised peoples still suffering, but currently rebelling against various dictatorships, there is no doubt that changing political dynamics are in play. You will need to take possibilities, probabilities and contingencies of these into account.

As suggested earlier, there is definitely something going on between your ears but it mostly seems to be passion, emotion and ill informed activism.

Unless of course, you can tell us otherwise
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 11:57:00 AM
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spindoc. Getting in was just as complex, yet it happened very fast.
Just how do all these international complexities make "stop invading another nation" so hard? These wars *cost* the US big time credibility and in diplomatic circles...all I'm suggesting is that the mistakes be acknowledged and corrected.
I think you are using sophistry to avoid the issue: When one nation uses brute force to subdue another there needs to be A very good reason: "Regime change" was what they had to resort to after the WMD story was proven a lie. Afghanistan was supposed to stop Bin Laden...even though a *lot* of folks said he was probably in Pakistan.
Do you have any idea how expensive and damaging an occupation is?
I may be passionate, but I'd appreciate some real argument instead of "you are speaking platitudes" then dribbling verbal diarrhea!
I think your handle is appropriate!
Posted by Ozandy, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 12:31:09 PM
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Ozandy, yep! I get it.

What you want should be possible. No, you haven’t the foggiest what it will take. Yes, you have suggested it and therefore someone else can think it through for you, and here for good measure is more emotion to confirm that you can’t or won’t put any effort into it, you just wanted to say it, and have it agreed, right?

Now that you’ve had your little distraction, perhaps you could stop proving me right and put some thought behind your original proposal, that of “Get out”. Who, where, when, how and why?

By way of example you say somewhat superficially, “Getting in was just as complex, yet it happened very fast” How true.

All you have to do now is explain the motivation, what the “goals” were, which of these goals have been accomplished, what timeframe those goals impose, and who has to agree the achievement of whatever those goals represent? Then your statement will be validated.

You could always respond with, “why should you bother as it is beneath you, or that we wouldn’t understand anyway” or even “yeh but no but ah but yeh but”
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 12:57:30 PM
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Oh dear Spin doc, did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning. Such a vitriolic attack Methinks you do respond too much.
However Ozandy has put it in a nutshell.
It is odd that out of all the “oppressed and disenfranchised peoples” George W (who started this ball rolling) chose Afghanistan and then followed up with Iraq. Now even those of us without a PhD can work out that the pipeline across Afghanistan was the real reason for the invasion and of course Iraq has a heap of oil. Other countries with oppressed peoples & dictatorships, but not having the lure of oil would perhaps have been North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, and so on for many more. But they were obviously not suffering enough for W to include them in his invasion list.
Do please pay attention to what is going on in the real world and not believe all the spin that your masters spin out to you.
Posted by sarnian, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 1:07:13 PM
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Spindoc, I would suggest that one has to first of be be very clear of the nature of the situation that is now confronting all of humankind.

For instance you might try reading one or all of the books that I referred to. Or at the least check out the many references and reviews of these books that are available on the internet. And why not try Tomdispatch which is Tom Engelhardt's excellent newsletter.

Some nonsense!

Meanwhile the world is a psycho-physical unity in which everything is in one way or another inter-connected - even instantaneously.

The world altogether is thus subject to the immutable laws of psycho-physics - for every action there is ALWAYS, in one way or another, in one or many places, and sooner or later, an equal and opposite response or manifestation.

At the human level this is an expression of the IMMUTABLE law of karma. The universe always bites back.
Individuals and collectives of individuals ALWAYS sooner or later reap what they sow.

Everything that arises also has a shadow or dark side which inevitably produces unintended consequences.

Everything also arises in two's, and thereafter in endlessly multiplied permutations or patterns - with endlessly multiplied unintended consequences.

I would suggest that the the now world-wide pattern of USA military bases and the associated 24/7 world-wide electronic spy in the sky network is a powerful psycho-energetic force-field which inevitably generates equal and opposite responses and manifestations. In all kinds of completely unpredictable ways.

To use another metaphor mushrooms always spontaneously spring up or manifest in the very "fertile" darkness of this toxic psycho-energetic force-field.

Human beings are now like mushrooms and very much asleep. We are deliberately kept in the dark and fed with toxic bull-manure by the powers that be. Or outfits which systematically promote Lies, Lies, and More Lies.

Which is to say that yes there will be a never-ending long war.

Except that if we continue dramatizing and feeding the current collectively generated death-saturated psycho-physical pattern that is now patterning the entire world we will destroy both humankind and even the Earth-world altogether.
Posted by Ho Hum, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 1:17:09 PM
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spindoc: I'm not sure we are commenting on the same article!
The article's point 1 was the invasion of Afghanistan:
So...
Where: Afghanistan
Who: the US
When: Now
How: Get on ships and air planes...even walk!
Why: Because they are not wanted, needed, nor allowed in another country with guns and bombs! Do you *really* need this spelt out?
OK more important why: they went in for the gas pipeline so this means they are killing people for energy and profits. (Like the Iraq oil this is not really contested any more...by those who read widely anyway)
If I need to spell out why this is evil then you are a lost cause.
I have no idea what the rest of your post is about!
Posted by Ozandy, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 1:59:04 PM
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sarnian,

The issue we are trying to address is what the “get out” solution comprises. You keep going back ten years to George W Bush and the invasion. Blithering on about the lure of oil is just a convenient distraction to avoid addressing the “get out” theme by focusing on the how we “got in”.

I’m just asking questions related to one of the original assertions that we should “get out”. What’s so hard about that and why do we need your distractions?

Dialogue with you is like asking “what time is it?” and being told a “green one with a zip down the side”.
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 1:59:49 PM
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sranion/ozzany and hoho - Afghanistan chose itself, when they hosted terrorist training camps, then refused to hand over Binny after the 9/11 attacks.

it's "self inflicted" as much as you all want to reinvent how we got into Afghania ..

they were irrelevant .. no they made themselves relevant, and we just won't let them slide back .. it will be decades if ever before we let them out of our sight again, it's what they deserve, not as individuals but as a society - we can't tolerate primitive tribal societies who behave this way .. we used to, but that's changed, it changed when they attacked the most powerful nation in the world, in their own backyard and this is the result - so no amount of whining will fix it. you pull the tail of the tiger at your own risk

It's like having some hopeless relative, you know the type, that you have to look after all their lives just to be humane or they self harm.

It's the same with countries like Afghanistan .. think of them as the idiot cousin or uncle, (well, like some of their supporters really who are likely on government support as well, centrelink, university grants, you know), and society has to look after them or they harm themselves or turn into hysterical idiots .. oh

we will add others to this list over time, we have the Solomon islands, ETimor, there will be others who we just cannot leave on their own. Think of it like taking children away from incompetent parents, or I'm sure you'll all prefer the "stealing" analogy, so in time these will be the "stolen countries", but they will be betetr for it and the ones around them

"These posts read like paid for terrorism apologist tripe"

now it looks right, more so after reading the terrorist supporting US hating tripe .. which quite frankly seems to overcome wanting to actually help people to hating the US more and anything they do, you froth at the mouth for the exact opposite
Posted by Amicus, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 2:57:42 PM
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Spindoc,
Withdraw all Australian troops, advisers, helpers call them what you want. There will be carnage at first until the top dog whichever group it is, gains ascendancy. It will not matter if it is done now or years down the track, the result will be the same, and there will be civil war again until equilibrium is reached. It will save a lot of lives if it done now, our troops and civilians.
For a tutorial on this: see Viet Nam after the US had pulled out leaving the South Vietnamese in control. It did not last long.
Of course the CIA will have to source a new supply of heroin.
Now that was not too hard , was it? Even you can understand that?
By the way the time is: time to get out.

Amicus: the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden before the invasion but the US did not want to know. That would not have solved their pipeline problem. See
http://www.hermes-press.com/Taliban_Oil.htm
http://www.guidetoaction.org/magazine/pipeline.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2114585
Posted by sarnian, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 3:56:15 PM
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What possesses OLO to publish this rubbish. It is nothing more than an apologia for perpetual war by and on behalf of America.
In all the hype about the "killing" of bin Laden nobody is asking the obvious questions: for example, where is the proof the man they claim to have killed and buried at sea was bin Laden? No DNA, no visual identification, absolutely nothing. We are expected to just believe the Americans. If you do that you have an attention span shorter than a gnat.
There is a significant body of evidence to suggest that bin Laden died of renal failure in December 2001. He was buried in Pakistan according to a number of reliable sources. Of course, unless that body is disinterred we will never know because the Americans have hastily buried the body they claim in bin Laden at sea where presumably it is irrecoverable.
Doesn't the lack of DNA and the quick disposal at sea raise at least some questions? Apparently not, certainly not in the corporate media. I expected better of OLO rather than the rightwing claptrap that pleases Amicus and his ilk but hardly resolves the central issues.
Posted by James O'Neill, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 4:25:02 PM
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sranio - yep, 3 conspiracy sites, really good sources of "truth" (/sarc) .. oh, how could I have been so wrong .. what is wrong with you, how do you even find these sites with their whacky theories. Do you think the UN supported the invasion, NATO all the rest?

jim .. go and google dna bin laden proof, and see what turns up - people are asking but probably not on the sites you inhabit, which I suspect are the "OMG some has been killed by Americans!" outrage sites.

it's in their interests to "prove it"

none of the prevous deaths were supported by official evidence, this one is .. and who would believe the Paki government on anything

oh and on OLO posting "claptrap" .. they publish your comments
Posted by Amicus, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 4:38:25 PM
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Interesting discussion.
I agree that the original article is a defence of America's right to maintain its global supremacy by military might. OLO has every right to run this along with the other think pieces expressing other views.
One key factor to have emerged from this discussion has been constructive – that the US presence in the Middle East is primarily to ‘secure’ cheap petroleum products. I think this is critical to our understanding of this complex matter.
Other observations – some made in other articles here on OLO on this topic – include:
1. The fight between Al Qaeda and US security forces did not start with 9/11 in 2001. Barrack Obama claiming it did does not make it so.
2. America’s foreign policy as defended in the article is just not working. The USA today is close to a failed state, both economically and in terms of moral authority. The murder of bin Laden has hastened the demise of the latter.
3. If the US has no inclination to abandon its destructive foreign policy of military interventions to secure its economic interests, then at least Australia should abandon its slavish role as deputy sheriff.
Posted by Sunflower, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 8:54:27 PM
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Amicus, your ad hominen attacks are becoming tiresome. If you don't have the courage to come out from behind your nom de plume might I respectfully suggest you take a holiday from inflicting your views upon the rest of us.
Posted by James O'Neill, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 10:39:57 PM
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@ James, pretty sure I agree with you on this issue. But accept the right of OLO to publish a range of views, even this fairly tawdry one.
What did you think of the other articles here on this subject?
Posted by Sunflower, Tuesday, 3 May 2011 11:06:52 PM
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Hi James O'Neill,
I am glad to find some sense somewhere amongst the rubbish of this discussion. How can people believe that the US have gotten rid of Bin Laden, and dumped his body after four hour, in respect of Arab laws. Too many long time retired, well off, acetic or vitriolic eight legged minds hanging off these web pages. Looks like their Agenda is more about spreading the venom than finding a solution to any issue.
François Crespel dit Gavroche.
Posted by gavroche, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 1:07:29 AM
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Hullo Sunflower. I am not sure what you mean by "other articles" on the subject. Are you referring to the coverage of the supposed demise of bin laden? If so, then they provide examples of the worst kind of journalism. Before the buildup for the Iraq war it was common to find references in the mainstream media to the likelihood that OBL was dead. That disappeared when his resurrection was necessary as part of the propaganda war. There were many other illustrations. For the media the inconvenient simply disappears down the memory hole.
The most objective analysis I have read on whether or not OBL was alive or dead is Griffin's book "Osama bin Laden: dead or alive? published in 2009. The weight of evidence pointed to him having died in December 2001 from renal failure.
Hullo Gavroche. The explanations for the rapid disposal of the body (whose is an open question) barely passes the laugh test. It is risible that they expect any half intelligent person to believe it. The Guardian (UK) has already published the photos of the deceased claimed to have been taken by the soldiers and stated quite plainly that they are fakes, having been circulating on the internet for at least two years.
There are many other aspects of the suppposed operation that do not make sense.
One would hope that a reasoned analysis would be published but that is probably a vain hope as far as our mainstream media are concerned. That was one of the main reasons I was so disappointed by OLO's publication of the article that we are commenting on. Whilst OLO is of course a proper forum for a range of opinion, in the current climate of triumphant hysteria there is a crying need for something more balanced and analytical.
Posted by James O'Neill, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 8:31:44 AM
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"rightwing claptrap that pleases Amicus and his ilk"

James, "your ad hominen attacks are becoming tiresome", and I responded to that, foolishly thinking you were a big enough man to take it, I admit, I was wrong, you're not big enough.

Hey if you can't take it, I suggest you don't start handing it out, otherwise you might look like a precious little princess stamping her little foot when he doesn't get her own way.

I choose not to reveal my identity for a number of reasons and people who challenge it in the emotional state you appear to inhabit, reinforce the logic of doing so.

How would it change anything? Are you insinuating that if I revealed my identity there would be some sort of penalty or danger to me? Do you think people can only express "rightwing claptrap" anonymously? And that if I was unmasked, I would then revert to left wing loony (LWL) opinions? .. How boring.

One reason I do not reveal my identity is so that left wing loonies do not, in a moment of progressive passion, attack me or my family physically or otherwise.

tell me jimmy, what would you do if you knew who I was?

it's a strawman isn't it .. bring up the identity thing and attack that .. yes?

jim it's OK in Australia to have a different opinion to you, if you don't like it well too bad.

I realise it is tiresome to have anyone disagree with you, but it's your problem, not mine

Osama deserved to die, he claimed responsibility for killing thousands and encouraged killing more. Yes, they should prove he is dead, and they will - but when the photos are released with his head half missing, I expect the LWLs to be outraged that it is shown worldwide .. always the outrage and confected offence.

Personally I am grossly offended that anyone thinks he didn't deserve to die, however it could be achieved.
Posted by Amicus, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 8:40:53 AM
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Americuss,
I think that after the tirades we have been having from you on this thread, enough is enough. It is not a debate now just a slanging match in place of reasoned argument and factual points.
OK one last point and then I will cease arguing with you.
You claim that the 3 sites I gave were “conspiracy sites”.
I have one question for you and hopefully will get a straight answer.
Do you believe that the Taliban sent representatives at the invitation of the US, to discuss the possibility of a pipeline across Afghanistan.
Just a simple yes or no answer please.
Posted by sarnian, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 9:49:55 AM
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sarnian, in response to the “Get Out Now” proposition, I suggested that there were many issues to consider first and I nominated some of those that might pose risk.

It is good that you have considered the possible consequences of such a proposition and that you now draw the conclusion that this would cause “carnage at first” and “civil war again until equilibrium is reached”, whenever that might be.

We are fortunate that those making such decisions demonstrate more compassion for human suffering than you.

Your proposal sounds great and all “some people” have to do is die or be maimed in your “carnage and civil war” in order to fulfill your ideological wishes.

Congratulations. Reality really does bite doesn’t it?

Now you can go off and “coagulate” with other like minded bleeding hearts.
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 11:07:25 AM
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Face it gentlemen, some people think "getting out" = "letting the conservatives lose this battle and every dastardly liberal, gay, socialist, greeny and pinko get a victory over us".

AS someone who probably rubs off much more a conservative myself here, my answers to this rubbish article (and it IS a rubbish article):
1- leave (the Afghans had enough time to adopt a less shariah-like course of life and centralized stability if they actually wanted it- 10 years and neither happening despite reconstruction efforts I think is a long enough benefit of a doubt)
2- close Gitmo (sends an incredibly poor message of what we supposedly stand for)
3-Proper policework, and bar any immigrants that hold extreme Islamist views (better than using a Patriot act as the alternative)
4-REDUCE foreign occupation abroad (a massive recruitment motive for terrorists), concentrate our military personnel domestically and in countries where the people actually want us there- saving money and enhancing our defensive capabilities, while using operatives and intelligence gathering to monitor terrorists, and share resources with other countries.
5- Declare victory; Unpopular occupations ceased, motives to attack us tremendously reduced, extremists are faced with more adversity coming to our countries and less staying in theirs, and we utilize the proper policing and intelligence techniques that have actually resulted in terrorist attacks being foiled and terrorists being taken down.
Posted by King Hazza, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 12:31:53 PM
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sarrian - I have one question for you and hopefully will get a straight answer.

Do you still beat your wife?

Just a simple yes or no answer please.
Posted by Amicus, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 3:20:17 PM
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Americuss,
I rest my case. You are an agent provocateur.
You will be stricken from my records.
ps you cannot read either.
Posted by sarnian, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 3:38:00 PM
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The US have the videos of what happened in Paistan, as each of the 24 SEAL elite task force members had a camera fitted to their helmet whilst Obama watched.
The US have to release the footage at least up until Osama was shot to prove that Osama was actually captured and shot. Otherwise why wasn't Osama taken alive - he was unarmed and by himself.
Posted by creep, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 7:09:59 PM
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Sigh. When I opened this article, I expected something that might enunciate why terrorism flourishes and the complex nature of fundamentalism and the causes driving it.

I hoped there might be some attempt at providing a basis for countering such an ideology, as well as steps that might add stability to some of the more unstable parts of the world.

Instead, there was some rubbish about 'winning' a war of ideas by pouring more money into defence while somewhat stubbornly avoiding any discussion of root causes. Pray tell, what happens after these steps are done? Do the terrorists magically convert to western ideals, sit down with us and sing kum-ba-ya?

However, as disappointing and shallow as the article was, with the exception of King Hazza, a fair amount of silliness has been displayed here. Between conspiracy theories about fake Osama killings and extreme comments from the far left and right (what I tend to think of as the one-eyed cheer squad section of the commentariat) it would appear we've got enough yahoos here to worry about without delving into the complex morass that is Islamist terrorism.

Alas.

These steps seem to do nothing but extend the status quo. I don't see any explanation outlining what these do to stem the flow of recruits, nor counter extremist ideology.

I don't have all the answers either, but a few good steps would be large education campaigns for women as it's pretty clear that there's a correlation between women's education levels, economic output and the prevalence of extremism. However, I accept that this is just as much cause as it is effect, but it's one part of the structure that needs to be in place before the structure can support its own weight.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 6 May 2011 2:15:53 AM
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..those who know me
know this is not a joke
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

[we collectivly*
[all of us]

never had a better chance
to end war...and dictraiter ships

*..OVERNIGHT*

>>>..!

read link..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

quote from belly[at link]..

""I remember them dancing in the streets after 9/11""

and saw the same..in usa..just yes-ter/day

only protesting students real/cause..WAS*HIGHjacked
by special fema agents[there not at the floods]
or the cyclone

WE NEED TROOP"S
at home...now
but back to the 'dancers',,on tv

the...*save our teachers...protest group&*

/was *silenced..lol..[highjaked by them 'dancers'
and the cause of the protest was lost..[highjacked]
by clever media driven SPIN*

how gullible
you lot can occasionall be..[lol]

DANCING>>SINGING>>
right in front of white house
yes

i agree..WAR'ss lies.. IS ...SIC*
great redirection..

but whats
*the ONLY true/TRUTH

the one egsactly authoritive cettified true,,full timeline

*and seeing egsactly
what the pres

..YOU mr osama.obama big ban-ana...
let us see..what he SAW>>>!

and more
of the SAME media silence spin and spun lies
LIES..

in palestein too

so tell me belly?..
which dancing looks best?>>

the freedom one..
in..[peace

or the war one?...
in...{pieces?

""Just so happy
we have leaned folk..*
..like we do..
to keep us informed."""

mate..me too!

need some links
..to this link

..at the other link
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

belly quote

"""SCIENTIFIC FACT? arjay?
good grief!""

dont swweat on it ..bells

what..*IF WE STOP WAR...NOW
we Are all..ready for peace"

agree
or we send in 26 men on a mission..!

with..*the eyes and ears..
of the president...wideopen..listening..seing what they 'see'..

first hand witness..!
him..via his mates..recording...your testimony

him..comming to you
only for him...to talk to YOU...
or hear or listen or advise YOU

he is..capable...of now being every where
his thugs go

not only to sick old boggy men
wife girls/boys and 2 men?
tweo sparrows
and 3 rats

SO
make peace
*now

or obama says
'game over';

and...*dont think he wouldnt do it

he should..would will or could

and who dares stop him...*

peace out man...lol
link this to the refugees dole topic

find the good
in all of this
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

the lessons of the bin=lair=den's...
true lessons..!
Posted by one under god, Friday, 6 May 2011 2:50:46 AM
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ever noticed how the room goes quiet

ever notice how we 'deneyers'
call al aci-arda..the toilet
are told the terrorists doing the terror
thus their nake means toilet

others supporting terror
say that word means simply...'base'
i still say it means toilet...[but on who's side
those saying its meaning...means...'base'

well we see the base reforming today
with the typical boogy fear beatups
wonder where they got the idea to base their anti religeon genocide's
upon what firm footing[base]...lol

""Truth integrity and reality has little value for some""

the TRUTH?
people cant handle the truth
and dont even bother reading that..those who do have.
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 7 May 2011 9:08:55 AM
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"I don't have all the answers either, but a few good steps would be large education campaigns for women as it's pretty clear that there's a correlation between women's education levels, economic output and the prevalence of extremism. However, I accept that this is just as much cause as it is effect, but it's one part of the structure that needs to be in place before the structure can support its own weight.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 6 May 2011 2:15:53 AM"

Interesting; and that is something that matches a few studies I looked at (corresponding to literacy, standards of living and modernity).
It may work (though there is no question that the extremist men would bristle at this new cultural imposition that serves them so well).
Posted by King Hazza, Saturday, 7 May 2011 10:28:24 AM
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bbc reports...today hard press release
that the bin liner was running his empire
from his safe house[without phone/internet]

so likely by cammel..and on pap-irus notes...
run to the frontlines..via runners and rumours

ya gotta love how poor the spin is

here is a fat high cheekbones old person
most certainly not..the frail/old sick bin liner

note the nhand holding..the 're-mote'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110507/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden

ie cia says bin liner ..LEFT HANDED
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

even the oppisite line
to con-firm...bin liner as ever being real
now further proof of life....lol
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/hes%20alive.jpg

mate hes been dead since 2001...!
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/05/04/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/

still faking
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384420/When-U-S-bombing-started-took-children-moved-cave-Startling-insight-life-Bin-Ladens-young-wife-gave-terror-chief.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384420/When-U-S-bombing-started-took-children-moved-cave-Startling-insight-life-Bin-Ladens-young-wife-gave-terror-chief.html

look at her fingers
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-0-0BE8183200000578-439_634x542.jpg
PHOTOSHOP[over./lay]

all spin
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

conclusion
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.php
its a beat up
TO BRING IN
neo/HITLER YOUTH'ss...
to terrorise the people..in usa
into giving up life/property and freedoms

like with the natzies/jews
and chrystal naght

like
israel/palistein
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-staged-media-spectacle-to-be-used-to-ramp-up-full-scale-police-state/

lets not turn blind [moted]eyes
upon israelies..love of terror's..special powers*

like immediate dna tersting
no need to wait 48 hours..to do all them NEEDED steps..!
http://www.healthnewsreview.org/blog/2011/05/guest-blog-cnn-promotes-sanjay-gupta-as-certified-medical-examiner-in-bin-laden-story.html

bah its spin

so those who serve the same old war systems
need as an excuse to kill the lot of us..

if we dare protest in the streets

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/05/02/2011-05-02_final_bin_laden_doomsday_tape_may_be_released_by_al_qaeda_disciples_us_officials.html#community

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/05/05/israel.iran.bin.laden/?hpt=T2
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/05/07/the-heavy-weight-of-zionism-felt-daily-in-palestine/
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 8 May 2011 8:27:11 AM
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OUG,

I'm a left-hander and I do some things with my right hand occasionally. No, not that ;)

I love conspiracy theories, so here are a few pre-emptive suspicions - please circulate:

* Bin Laden never existed and neither did al Qaida - they were just convenient targets for the US;

* Bin Laden was killed ten years ago - this old guy was just a body double, used by al Qaida to fool the US [admittedly not a difficult task];

* Bin Laden wasn't killed but, even at this very moment, is being questioned in an ultra-high security facility in Nebraska, where he will he kept alive for the next twenty years;

* Bin Laden escaped and/or has been holed up for years in Iran (yes, I know, Sunni-Shia, yadayada), the old guy that they shot was just the caretaker, so the CIA used a Hollywood film set and a crew of unknown actors to play out the whole thing, in a hangar somewhere in Arizona;

* Bin Laden wasn't shot by any Navy Seals team, but by a Pakistani marksman from a grassy knoll nearby;

* the Pakistanis ....... no, I can't go on with this one, it's too believable;

* the CIA has secretly kidnapped Arjay, to prevent him from telling us the Actual Truth. He is currently in Guantanamo, in solitary confinement, under a false name. He will never stand trial;

* all of the above, simultaneously.

Of course, John Pilger will tell us what really happened in due course, and explain how it was all the Yanks' fault - they're so eeeevil !

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 8 May 2011 6:04:56 PM
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hi proud
put up some links and see how i go reading them
even such things as knowing he was lefthanded are clues
clearly the claimed side vieuw of 'him' watching tv..[the only problem being,..his sun tan..and fatter face..and prince charely ears]

hid hand also wasnt thin enough
plus he looked younger than bin lid looked ten years ago
let alone how he would look today..after so many diabetus treatments

anyhow im going with him sdying before 911
it must have been annoying for the patsy to die
but the yonger fakes used in his vidios have twisted egsactly how old the old farrrrrt..would have been..by now

the hoard of intel...lol
will only end up being made known now..to base some vile
supposedly founf within it...a way to help the legand live on

sop lets list our agreements
bin lid was real
his mortal flesh is dead

he is a figurehead,..of a belief..
that claims no figure head..[no imagry/no idols..no shrines]

he had a beard..scraggly
in his later vidios..ir was dyed black..[a thing against thatr claimed to be his 'religion]

it is also at this time he takes to shading in dark frown lines from the side of his mouth to his eyes[and wearing oppop coloured hats clothes...that occasionally became white..as more vanity accumulated in-to his image

look its not important what we think
but juast recall..we conspiricy theorists
say prove your what you say..or go away

we say your name is mud..meaning the toilet
those against us
call you the base
[when your true name is scum]

you idolise a corpse..[mere man]
just like the infidels?

you kill more muslims than 'infidels'
clearly your adgenda is that of the infidel
not those serving gods good in peace

he was a media construct
if the media hadnt told us
we would NEVER have heard of them
even the latest SCARE scam..told us by media

and media cant track/back...to the source?
bullll ssshhhhhhhhhh
hit
Posted by one under god, Monday, 9 May 2011 7:16:35 AM
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That's right, OUG, CTs can somehow believe all of those theories simultaneously, it's quite amazing.

But I wouldn't equate conspiracy theorists = pro-Bin Laden = Left.

I think the world, and how people think, is vastly more intricate than that. Our erstwhile colleague Arjay outed himself once as being on the Right, so not everyone on the Left (myself included) believe all of the above hypotheses, or would assert that al Qaida (which does not exist, it's an American fabrication) is a force for good (since anti=US, ergo good, for many CTs).

The best consequence of the execution of Bin Laden may turn out to be the withering away of the influence of Islamism on the reform movements in Arab countries. If any of the Arab revolutions have marked success, this influence will wither even further. But if the reformist-revolutionary-democratic impulse is thwarted, then the people in those Arab countries will turn out of desperation towards Islamism.

The future for people in the Middle East is that much brighter with Bin Laden gone. Hurrah for that !

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 9 May 2011 8:37:50 AM
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real or not..the bin lid is dead [morte]
now there is the small matter of the security of his claimed papers

no doudt a trickle feed of them will now go through the news cycle
the time shall come ..when they stuff up the spin
they get from the intel/papers/hardrives]

thus i propose its is copied
sent on to the members of the g20
for safe keeping..[so when they get behind something
begottenm from murder..it can be verified..in house by referincing their copy

the origonals..should be made into a honey trap
a shrine..

to attract those comlicite..
in the cia mossad scam
or any fool enough to claim to be members of 'el toilet'

those security agencies...so caught up
in supplying,the tools of terror prevention
and secret wars
as well as serving their drugs/spin/media-lie...franchises/cartels

those getting the money from the public purse
are our only real/present danger

go and make war no more
peace not pieces

conspiricy theory*

dosnt claim
to be...*conspiricy fact

only asking..*hey

what you think
this smell funny..to you?

i would rather be called a con-spirit-cyt/theorist
than be called left or right wing

im down the middle path
staying centerd all the way
those recalling their lies recall delusions
Posted by one under god, Monday, 9 May 2011 9:05:43 AM
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irst remove the mote from thyne own eyes

"Democracy was being saved from Communism by getting rid of democracy." -- Newsweek magazine about the Dominican Republic prior to overthrow of elected President Juan Bosch in 1963

sad how you see
the clear media lies in other lands
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/08/new-osama-bin-laden-video-tapes-appear-to-be-fakes/

but miss it in our own backyard
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/08/billionaires-for-eugenics/

too many cooking/cop/murder/police state shows[here]
http://www.smh.com.au/world/doubts-grow-on-us-version-of-strike-against-bin-laden-20110505-1eaah.html
not enough info or fact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKPOhFZuFQg
to much spin
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/178898.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.php

bbc reports...today hard press release
that the bin liner was running his empire
from his safe house[without phone/internet]

so likely by cammel..and on pap-irus notes...
run to the frontlines..via runners and rumours

ya gotta love how poor the spin is

here is a fat high cheekbones old person
most certainly not..the frail/old sick bin liner

note the RIGHT-hand holding..the 're-mote'
he was a lefty

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110507/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden

ie cia says bin liner ..LEFT HANDED
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

even the oppisite line
to con-firm...bin liner as ever being real
now further proof of life....lol
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/hes%20alive.jpg

mate hes been dead since 2001...!
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/05/04/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/

still faking
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384420/When-U-S-bombing-started-took-children-moved-cave-Startling-insight-life-Bin-Ladens-young-wife-gave-terror-chief.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384420/When-U-S-bombing-started-took-children-moved-cave-Startling-insight-life-Bin-Ladens-young-wife-gave-terror-chief.html

look at her fingers
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-0-0BE8183200000578-439_634x542.jpg
PHOTOSHOP[over./lay]

interesting as to glinton being photoshopped out?
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/the-hillary-ed-out-in-brooklyn-op-ed/
[only in israel"...tha land of spin]

http://uruknet.com/?p=m77492&hd=&size=1&l=e

proof we all have been waiting for
binliner is dead
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/the-proof-we-have-been-waiting-for-bin-laden-is-dead-again-including-the-latest-threats-from-the-grave/

DIkkk is back
'come water boarding'
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/08/dick-cheney-reinstate-the-torture-program/

republican
taken in by photshop
recants
http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/novice-repuglican-taken-in-by-photo-shopped-bin-laden-photos-admits-error/

the rouges gallery
of the bin libners dopplegangers
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape2.html?q=osamatape2.html

all spin
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jontalton/2014976024_biztaltoncol08.html

conclusion
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.php
its a beat up
Posted by one under god, Monday, 9 May 2011 9:57:23 AM
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Thanks, OUG, you're sort of proving my assertion.

I forgot a couple of other theories:

* 9/11 was a Mossad/CIA/Swedish [my contribution] plot, for God knows what reason;

* none of it happened, it was all a giant hologram and smoke cloud: those 3000 people supposedly 'killed' were all whisked off and are confined in a secret underground CIA gulag somewhere in either Colorado or New Mexico;

* it's all media spin: if they had a mind to do it, then they could have done it, and if they could have done it, then they did do it. Why ? Because they are all such b@stards. Ergo, they did it: evil people can do anything - just look at any James Bond movie.

Love that logic :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 9 May 2011 9:59:21 AM
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the White House..(and Wall Street)
realized that a live bin Laden..is more much useful for scaring America...into wars of conquest..than a dead one.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

In 2007,shortly before her assassination,Benazir
Bhutto confirmed bin Laden was already dead. http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14819

Every “Osama”..that has been shown in the media since then
has been exposed..as a fake...This includes the “Osama” from 2004…

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape2.html?q=osamatape2.html

… which was recycled(with a new background)
as part of yesterday’s claim of “Home Movies.”

One particularly sloppy example of the latest hoaxes
to be foisted on the gullible,..which embarrassed the UK Daily Mail,

http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/114767

Other demonstrated/frauds are at http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/113992

http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/114266

and

http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/114329

Common sense will tell you
that if that really had been Bin Laden
who was gunned down in cold blood last Sunday
that there would be no need for faked evidence,..!

and indeed fakes would be avoided
precisely because the revelation of a single hoax
casts the credibility of the entire story into doubt.

Therefore,..if there is..*just one fake,
the logical conclusion is that the entire story..*is fake,

and as you can see above,this does
appear to be the case..regarding the claim that the US..“got” Bin Laden.

Remember how the White/House
claimed to watch..the killing in Live TV? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382859/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-photo-Obama-watching-Al-Qaeda-leader-die-live-TV.html#ixzz1LIIde9UI

The White House even released
a photo showing Obama,Clinton,etc,
all watching the live AGENCY>feed..of the raid.

Of course,the most obvious clue
that this was a staged photo..is that the laptops are not turned on.

And sure enough,the head of the CIA
admitted..*there had been no live feed..after all! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

The reason for the change..is obvious.
The foreign media has been reporting..that it was Pakistani troops who raided the home..and shot the old man,*

while looking for those
who had shot down..

*a Pakistani helicopter.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7366885.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/113992

Only after neighbors stated
that the dead man might be Osama Bin Laden
did the US swoop in and try to pretend this was an heroic operation by the Navy SEALS,..so of course

..*there could be no video,
live or otherwise of the SEAL/raid....*It didn’t happen.

How many times do you have to be..lied to
before you understand...why/who/when..you are being lied to?
Posted by one under god, Monday, 9 May 2011 10:05:48 AM
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Loudmouth,

You're so right!

...And the reason America is such a conspicuous presence in the oil-rich middle-east is because of altruism (they just haven't had the time to get to Zimbabwe yet)

...And corporations like Halliburton and Blackwater don't make enormous profits with money funnelled to them from the American taxpayer.

Love the logic :)
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 9 May 2011 10:33:24 AM
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Poirot, that tends to oversimplify things. Loudmouth makes some very good points regarding the conspiracy theories.

Things aren't that simple.

I simultaneously believe that:

A) US corporations such as Halliburton have deep connections within the government, they screw taxpayers and are immensely corrupt.

B) The US, when weighed against other superpowers aren't all that evil

C) Not everything they're doing in the Middle East profit-driven evil

D) Their prime motivation has been combating terrorism and ensuring a supply of oil, however neither of these things are fundamentally evil. Making war to ensure a supply of oil sounds irresponsible, but if it's done to ensure your country's prosperity, in my book, it falls under doing the wrong thing, but not necessarily for the wrong reasons.

A leader's (or a party's) prime responsibility is the well being of their own people first, then other countries.

My main beef has been with the half-assed execution of their middle-eastern forays.

Any argument which simply says America=bad is too simple. America isn't a single entity and their motivations can't be spelled out so simply.

Simplifying the motives of terrorists is sometimes oversimplified, but a core aspect remains the murder of innocent people.

Thus, they're worse. That's self-evident.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 9 May 2011 2:47:43 PM
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Hi Poirot,

Yes, you're right, but a lot of that is neither here nor there. US capitalists of course want to exploit everywhere and everything, that's not news. Everybody wants a steady oil supply, as TRTL points out, and if they can make a buck out of it, all the better. I'm sure that there would be many US firms who have been playing both sides of the street, slipping funds to all sorts of groups whenever they think it might profit them.

But there are also other evil forces in the world - there's probably an extremist wing of Opus Dei for all we know. Mugabe is evil. The Chinese have hard-labour camps holding millions of prisoners, mostly without trial, I'm sure. The Russians are incredibly corrupt and probably also slipping funds and arms (as China probably is too) to all manner of vile terrorist groups, just to keep their particular pots boiling. In India, there are powerful fascist Hindu groups. Well, duh.

The Islamists are unbelievably reactionary, from a Marxist point of view - can you deny that ? The current major battle is thus between:

* forces that (often begrudgingly) allow people to express themselves, to have a say in their government, to champion equal rights for women and minorities, forces that allow for people to develop some of their potential, that have mechanisms for soften the impacts of exploitation (at least in some countries such as ours) and so on: you can loosely call these democratic forces; and

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 9 May 2011 6:12:29 PM
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[contd]

and

* Salafism, extreme forms of a pre-medieval philosophy and economic system of distribution, tarted up as religion, whose adherents seek to extend their rule over the world, the entire world, here and elsewhere, by force (since it is highly unlikely that you or I or billions of others would accept this philosophy to rule over our lives), an ideology which would ban the rule of law except that imposed by the Koran, ban equal rights for women, ban free speech (goodbye OLO), bring back the most archaic forms of punishment for breaches of this Book-imposed law - and not stop until the entire world has been 'converted'. In the name of this evil force, market-places, schools and hospitals are bombed, random killings are exploited to yes, strike terror in our hearts - no means are ruled out in order to bring about this heaven on earth for its believers, and to hell with those who don't believe.

So take your pick - one relatively minor evil or a major evil ? The time to fight other evils is later, but when these two forces get into the ring, so to speak, who are you going to barrack for ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 9 May 2011 6:15:00 PM
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we need to get away from the them and us thing
lets face it...any docter has more in common
with other docters
than mearly the same colour face

those oppressing..their people
have only in common
with the others,,also..oppressing their own kind

i suppose why i blog is to hear from others who care

anyhow i noted this one earlier
in case either side thinks they are just too clever by half

""Conspiracy Theory Nutters
Why Can't They Be Normal Like Us?
http://www.awolonline.net/forum/index.php/topic,527.0.html

""How dare they have the nerve
to draw different conclusions..from the fairy tale news/stories
we the masses have to swallow..and digest without question?

Why can’t these conspiracy theorists people
just be normal like everyone else and
accept what our government tells us
..like all decent normal citizens do?

After all,..we are the good guys,
our western governments are the good guys,
we only go to war and kill millions of men woman and children
...for democracy,..freedom and capitalist/humanitarian reasons.

It’s these bad Muslims
and Al Queda terrorists
that...*make us...*have to do it.

We are the good guys.
ahhh men?

hey joe

""an ideology""
""which would ban the rule of law
except that imposed by the Koran,""

yes we convert them into the holy bible?
we dont got any of that murder stuff
..in our values book...lol

""ban equal rights for women,
ban free speech..(goodbye OLO),
bring back the most archaic forms of punishment
for breaches of this Book-imposed law..and not stop until the entire world has been 'converted'.""

hey your revealing the freemasons plans
and opuss dei*...etc etcc ..[dont you read the his-story?

""no means are ruled out
in order to bring about this heaven on earth...""

yes sure sounds like the xtian adgen-duh

""for its believers,
and to hell with those who don't believe.""

first yelled in a xtian church
in the backwoods of usa

its..pot '
kettle stuff

really
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 10:10:53 PM
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""So take your pick
one relatively minor evil""

""or a major evil?""

hint
the good one..that srves all living
is the right one

any who kill
are decievers..abusing belief..to propgate disbelievers

""The time to fight other evils is later,""

no we fight it first within ourselves
then once we are at peace..peacefully reveal the peace in your heart
by doing good works

""but when these two forces
get into the ring,..so to speak,
who are you going to barrack for?...

mate im with make love/peace
all the way

the day of war
pieces]..is OVER

if we resist
the evil..in ourself

FIRST..!
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 10:11:16 PM
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Yes, OUG, ordinarily we shouldn't have to accept either pot OR kettle, but there are times when we have to take sides.

In the struggle between philosophies or ideologies, democracy or medievalism, which do we support, for all its defects in practice -

* the democratic adgen-duh, with the rule of law, equal rights for women and minorites, rights to free speech, etc., OR

* the rule of the Book, interpreted by emirs and sheikhs, no more equal rights for women, no more free speech, no rule of human-derived law, no elections, no representation ?

There are no neutrals in this fight. None. Take side A or side B, it's up to you.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 11:01:18 PM
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joe/quote..""the rule of the Book,""
all books*..have been edited

thus are corrupted

""interpreted..by emirs/sheikhs""

popes kings queens/presidents...minesters..catholic/jew

mate..if they end-up..*serving death
let the dead..tend the dead..with dead words..

[and thats more true..than you could possably grasp]
govt..is a created fiction..created by..the many
yet govts mainly..*represent only the few

by a stroke of a govt-servant..pen
artificial 'persons'[fictions]..are created[licenced]..
[ie big business indentity]
cocacola/macdonalds/racv/tab/woolworths/agi...bmf fi

who's..govt accorded right..SUPERCEEDS
and exceeds*...the right..of the ordinary living being

that also...*NOW needs licence
to travel..or do ANYTHING
[passports/auto licence/marrage licence/pool licence]

[licence:..is permission to..*do that..otherwise
...without licence
would be illegal....[for a non-living/entity..to do]

GOVT GOT NO RIGHT..TO ASK
the same..OFF LIVING BEINGS..!
[fullstop]..

but..because created fictions..
have the same rights of..*person
the whole of govt..serving its people..has gotten twisted

persons arnt people

""no more equal..rights for women,""

religions..dont do this
govts/armies/fools
did this

lest we forget...only..from the late 60's
did we..*even let them vote

barefoot and pregnant
[that older generation..thinking
stil rules...*demom-autocracie's..current pub-clic* service]

""no more/free speech,""

yes julian..learned freespeach means
YOUR OWN GOVT
can condem you...casst you out

[like the baly 9..DOBBED-in..by their own govt]

""no rule of human-derived law,""

law must be HUMANE...!

gods laws cast no stones
criminaliing no one...[who has not caused REAL injury

[if read..through the filters/of love,grace...mercy}

""no elections""

elect-ions are over/rated

see HOW..us applying..[means\begging]..to vote
gives govt...the higher lawfull/standing..
[over us/over..*abouve..]
OUR rights

us chosing WHO..will represent us..
ACCORDS THEM..a power of atourney,*

power..to tell us..[now]..what to do
and ask THEM..if we are licended..to do it

""no representation""
is what we allready got..!

a dictraiter..could easilly be benevolent..!

we need them..only..to protect the LIVING-person
[all living-beings..belong..
only to god]

and protect
the common weal/commonwealth
[common acces
to a fair share..of gods bounty]

""There are no neutrals..in this fight.""

fighting for peace
it's like fu/king...for virginity

Take side A
or side B,

they are two sides..of the same coin..

it's up to you...if you get slapped
with the left hand..today
or the right wing/hand..of the 2/party machines

by...*parrahandy
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 11 May 2011 9:38:42 AM
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With respect, OUG, you're equivocating :)

Which side ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 11 May 2011 11:07:47 AM
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you ask for a choice
between A or B

yet i want to chose between 'a'....and ..."b'

but thats not a choice

so please define
WHAT AM I CHOSING BETWEEN

define the paramiters of A
define fully..."B"

i cant chjose between the numbers
if there...is..no value attached to the lable a/b

just as letters i prefere A[alfa/good/god]
but beta...[the improved man]...well im neutral about all eves
my mother came via her matriarchal line

despite many other paternakl intervebntions
the mother bore the child..carried the burden
for the lazey alpha..who only makes life...beta nurtures it

im against the [patternalism of fathers of war
i chose tyo reject the male patriarchal of the father

and invoke my vote
for the beta..of love grace mercy...
without them..so what about...'life'..

i wouldnt want life WITHOUT them..!

so put me down as a "b"
of course the true god is more than alpha[life giver..source of good/life/love/grace and mercy

all were in mark one

[ps adam
is a girls name...

na-me

na=beta=me
but so love the father love
dwelling[enthroned]..within my heart
sustaining our every heart beat...our every breath

the logic within
that helps make sense of it all

definiatly not a capital letter
caps means dead fiction

when they write your name in capitals
this legally means your not a living being
[coorperations[artificial]..persons

dead is the mark of the beast[within]
waring on the good within

in capital letters..you become food for the beast

as dead..your the fiction..
and govt..[the fiction of governance..*over 'them']
is the boss over the fiction..

[you are not ..'your'..name
you are eternal spirit..repnting this body

but for..one 'life sentance;
in sentanance]

[you ARE NOT..A PERSON]
your an indwelling..of good [god's goods]
simply being./.me..

in me
as well
as in..*you

that we did..to the least
we did to 'him'....

"A"
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 11 May 2011 11:32:06 AM
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With respect, OUG, you're still equivocating :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 11 May 2011 11:38:09 AM
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Sorry, OUG, sorry - I didn't read your post to the very end, one of my many failings :) Thank you.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 11 May 2011 10:03:09 PM
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