Jewely,"Yeah like if they came here and were all bad but from 6 years old?"

Comon, it is not as though a person gets jailed, for 2 years, for a first offence shop lifting or peeing in public. Pretty serious, or repeat offender, to be jailed for 2 years.

Jewely, "That is all official stuff… he’s more Aussie than anyone under 35 years old who was born here I reckon. 4 bloody years – after applying? WHY? Can you get turned down heaps and still stay or is not applying the safer option?"

Getting the permanent residence visa is the most difficult part, as I think you have found out. Having to wait '4 bloody years' after to obtain citizenship is easy. I may be wrong, but I have never heard of a permanent resident being refused citizenship, its a formality. Bit like i can drive a car, but not having a licence is against the law. There are some, including me, that think we should consider a 5 year probationary period after citizenship as well, where it can be withdrawn for serious misconduct. We are the ones offering our hand to a better life. Those that reject that can go elsewhere.

Jewely, "This is saying Australia has no impact on its people, does not shape them or make who they are as adults"

You are saying that our enviroment made them criminals, which is utter bull. The vast majority of people in Aus are not criminals and have no trouble abiding by our laws.

The only problem we have with the likes of Clifford Tucker is that we gave him too many chances earlier on

Banjo,

Under section 34 of the Australian Citizenship Act, the Minister may revoke the citizenship of person who was granted citizenship under the Act. It is only in special circumstances, but you might like to note it. In some cases, the child of a person whose citizenship is revoked also ceases to be a citizen.

The question of what turns a person into a criminal is a matter for research--and I have no expertise in that area. The claim that the environment is responsible is simplistic--but so is the claim that it is utter bull that social circumstances can have an effect. Teenagers for example often start to go astray under the influence of their peers. How they are dealt with, by parents, teachers, other adults and the law appears to be crucial to their subsequent path. Banjo, you must at least be aware of the often made claim by criminologists, that putting a young person in prison where he is in contact with serious criminals is likely to turn him into a more serious criminal. That is an example of how the environment can have an effect.

Banjo:”You are saying that our enviroment made them criminals, which is utter bull. The vast majority of people in Aus are not criminals and have no trouble abiding by our laws.”

I’m saying after 41 years he is a product of this society as much as the law abiding ones are.

“There are some, including me, that think we should consider a 5 year probationary period after citizenship as well, where it can be withdrawn for serious misconduct. We are the ones offering our hand to a better life. Those that reject that can go elsewhere.”

Five years seems fair I reckon. ‘Better life’ is relative. Haven’t found many hands offering much at all but have found one part of Australian society neglected and abused so at least that’s kept me busy in various ways.

My dad sends me those awful e-mail attachments about immigrants to Aussie… he must have forgotten he was one and certainly has forgotten I’m still one.

Imagine if all those poor Forgotten (The Forgotten that the churches were made to apologise to publically) children didn’t have citizenship and because of what the Australian institutionalised care did to them they all got booted as adults.