I am opposed to the idea of preventative detention and control orders or the sedition rules however democracy is certainly not dead or dying.

We can criticise the secrecy of the process as being unnecessary, however backbenchers are being heard and public concern has the opportunity to translate into a correction at the next election.

Another reason to continue the existing three-year election cycle.

Let me add, that the public are showing themselves smart enough to recognise the difference between propoganda and information. There was never any doubt in my mind on that.

Philo, you got in before me regarding Shonga's shonky argument about living in the past.

Democracy dying - where in this legislation does it ban free elections and the right for Australian citizens to stand for office. That's right, no where.

If the people do not like this legislation there is an election in two years time where they can throw out the current government by exercising their democratic right to vote.

Heck, Mr Michaelsen can even take his smug "non-partisan" agenda to the people, win them over and be elected himself.

I suspect though, he won't put his money where his mouth is and exercise this democratic right he so desperately wants us to believe is being eroded.

Ah, the luxury of the lobby group - able to vilify elected officials knowing full well they have no responsibility for the electorate.

t.u.s

Presently we have two major bills to be pushed through Parliament that will have huge impact on Australian society. The question is whether it's a divide and conquer strategy employed by the government to strategically get both bills through.

It's been a very secret process in relation to the Anti-terrorit legislation as it did not show up in the media until John Stanhope posted a draft of the bill online.

Hello... no one has convincingly argued the new legislation is likely to do more harm than good.

So the old question... why implement change without a reason? For starters there has been no terrorist activity uncovered in this country to date.

My only justification... the corrolary of being the lucky country is that we also have the most to protect.

Rainier “Unless we learn to accept the rights of all to express their opinions, the best of socio- political intentions will decay into totalitarianism”. (Laurence O'Neill) cited by Col Rouge here: http://tvset.org/art_00.html
What more can one say “

One can say it is entirely possible and in this case a “racing certainty” that whoever posted anything onto the “tvset.org” website was not this particular “Col Rouge” and thus not cited by this “Col Rouge”.

Others have made posts which use the same log on as I use, either because they are writing, coincidently using the same log on or alternatively, they are low life scumbags who are deliberately and perniciously using the same log on because they lack the compelling arguments and reason to engage in free debate (reference the Melbourne Age website).

The real test - Rainier will you illustrate, on this site, I have ever suggested any curb on the right of any person to free expression.

When Rainier can prove such statement originate to me, he will be in a position to suggest “What more can I say” Until that time he is doing what he does best. Merely blowing smoke to disguise his insidious, nefarious and since he seems to know most about the tvset.org site a possible duplicity, all I can observe is,

“What more can one say? Nothing - when there is nothing to say”

So bring it all on Rainier or do you lack the reason, compelling arguments and intellectual prowess to challenge me fairly?

Certainly it is true that greater injustice, insidious exploitation and erosion of democratic freedom of expression is achieved by falsely presenting statements designed to discredit others by those who care less about democracy than they do about their own malignant ego.

SHONGA – I also remember the IRA bombings I worked in Bond St, London for 3 years where the adjacent Oxford street was a continuous target of bombs. A lot more innocent men, women and children were killed and maimed there too.

Stone the crows, there go all the trendy lefties bleating about about the end of the world again. Hey, Sneaky Peter, Scooper and Mahatma Sitting Duck, you wanted Multiculturalism and you got it.

If people like you think it is OK to allow people who want to blow us all up into Australia you can hardly complain if we have to instigate laws to prevent them from doing so. That these necessary laws were inevitable and a threat to our democratic values is something that you should have thought of before you endorsed the destruction of Australian social cohesion through your fanciful social theories.

I am not so worried about these laws being misused by a Liberal party government, as much as i worry about what wil happen with these laws in the hands of a bunch of politically exquisite trendy lefties who have a messianic Utopian vision and little scruples about using the coercive means of the State to achieve them.

Of all the detrimental effects of Multiculturalism now prevalent in Australian society, including ethnic branch stacking, the creation of welfare dependent ethnic ghettoes with high rates of welfare dependency and criminal behaviour,and Muslim race hate rape packs targetting Australian girls, the severe reduction of civil liberties caused by Multiculturalism has the potential to be the most dangerous.