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The Forum > Article Comments > Labor and the Greens on the Carbon Tax debate > Comments

Labor and the Greens on the Carbon Tax debate : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 8/4/2011

Emitters, just like the miners, can afford to pay more tax, and we can use the proceeds for social equity.

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Tristan, have not read your aticle yet, but good to see you back at OLO.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 8 April 2011 9:29:51 AM
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Tristan,

So you would like to tax as much as possible without getting labor thrown out on its ear. Buying the votes of the lowest 65% you reckon should do it?

This is of course assuming that the lowest 65% are too stupid to realise that it is not only basics that will increase in cost, but everything. Jobs will move overseas, and that the total global emissions will not change.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 8 April 2011 11:43:16 AM
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Shadow Minister - do you view it the same way where past Conservative and Labor governments have restructured and cut tax to the benefit of the highest income earners - with the consequence that low and middle income groups pay more in the context of user pays; suffer inadequate infrastructure and social services; or just shoulder a greater proportion of the necessasry tax burden?

Also I wouldn't push up tax indefinitely. Preferably I'd like to expand tax and related social expenditure by as much as 1.5% of GDP per term over three terms of Labor government. That would have us still very significantly behind the Nordic welfare states, but could make a great difference to the vulnerable; while promoting efficient collective consumption for all Australians in areas like health.

But the reforms I allude to are necessary - both out of human decency and compassion - and practically because of an ageing poplation. Think aged care (big investment needed to provide dignity, care, quality of life), pensions (with a rising cost of living and to edge closer to the standards in other advanced capitalist countries), transport infrastructure (needed to make new and outer suburbs viable; low transport costs free up income for consumption elsewhere), social housing. (to increase supply and make housing affordable). Then there's the underpayment of women workers in the community services sector. All this costs money.

nb: I'm not saying welfare state expansion as a proportion of GDP go on forever. Obviously there needs to be a balance - so beyond the realm of necessity ordinary people have the opportunity to shape their own needs structures through consumption.

re: 'lost jobs' etc;compensation for exposted export and import-competing industries should prevent that; And the development of new low-emissions energy technology should drive down cost structures over the long term. See: http://www.greenlivingpedia.org/Solar_paint
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Friday, 8 April 2011 11:59:20 AM
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Tristan,

While I sympathise with your myopic bleeding heart approach, the reality is that the incentives given to business and industry has lead to the longest sustained growth ever. While the rich have benefited the lowest paid have seen their real income increase way beyond any equivalent period of ALP socialism.

There is a maxim "by making the rich poorer, one very seldom makes the poor richer". The Nordic states are in a parlous financial situation, with massive unemployment and comparatively low disposable income. Their industries are outsourcing, and many of their high flyers have left.

Spending as much time as I do in Scandinavia, this is not a form of government I would wish inflicted on anyone.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 8 April 2011 12:18:58 PM
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Tristan, this is a great answer. Just one small problem, can you tell us what the question was?

I think that when it comes to taxation there are a few minor issues such as key dependencies, economic assumptions, exchange rates, sovereign/private investments, international trade, deficits, national debt, state debt, public debt, interest rates, industrial and services sector performance, inflation, GDP and productivity, just to mention a few.

So, before we get down to the solution, perhaps you just let us know the relationships and potential cross correlation impacts of GST redistribution, mining tax, CO2 tax and the various options expected to be discussed at the Tax Summit planned for later this year? Then we can take a look at your economic assuptions.

Thanks.
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 8 April 2011 1:11:37 PM
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Tristan,

I am a bit lost with this; i made have to read this several times to get the jist of what you are saying.

firstly, when i hear you talk of progressive policies, yet suggest that the carbon tax should be introduced earlier, I am a bit lost. We certainly do not need arrogant attitudes by Labor that propose policies without ever getting support from the people on such a vital issue. No wonder they are down in the polls, and I will be interested to see if they pull of another houdini through their so-called fight for progressive policies on behalf of Australians.

To be honest, I am so close to giving the ALP the flick long-term out of anger from their mediocrity and simplistic dribble. I think the first thing Labor needs to do is to admit their limitations. Now the ALP evens bags the Greens. what a joke.

Second, I do not really get any feel that this article is on top of the issues that may deliver better outcomes for battlers. A focus on redistributive tax policies, is, as usual, a focus on half the story.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 8 April 2011 3:54:12 PM
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