There seems to be 4 main themes in feminism.

Abortion, portrayal of victimhood, destruction of family, and give women more money.

Once again theists have demonstrated their skill in building vast structures of nonsense on a tiny foundation of self-delusion. But what do you expect from people who make it their business to believe the unbelievable and venerate the unspeakable?

Jon J,
Protection of the unborn or unhatched also happens in animals, reptiles and birds, to blame theists for the guilt and depression is nonsense. It violates the natural ethos of the female to give life and protection to her babies. It is part of the natural protection of the species from predators. Examples in birds are pluvers, magpies. Remove their eggs and study their behaviour, yet neither will deliberately destroy their eggs.

Surgical abortion increases the risk of breast cancer, and further problems in retaining a pregnancy; example the writer herself. Her problems had nothing to do with theism, but her previous actions.

“So I have no time for the women who can't get over their abortions. They obviously didn't want to have a termination in the first place.”

Harsh. Circumstances change, they get older, and they aren’t who they were back then. They feel regret which seems perfectly normal.

Vanna is it a commonly held view that only feminists get abortions beyond the medically necessary ones? Does having an abortion label a person as a feminist?

Philo,

There is no indication I can see that the author has had an abortion herself.

You seem to favour evolutionary principles in referencing maternal behaviour in lower animals. Your analogy falls short in that they do not have cognition of abortion or the social structures that human societies do.

Thank you Evelyn for calling it as it really is.

I am close friends with a doctor who performs terminations and your article reflects exactly the reality of what the vast majority of women say and feel about terminating their pregnancy. All women she sees have counselling which includes a discussion of her reasons for seeking a termination. Not for wanting to second guessing the woman's decision, but to cover the legal requirement. It also uncovers a small number of women who will actually drop a few clues that they aren't prepared to take full responsibility for their decision to terminate or are at the clinic "under duress". When asked if they are sure of their decision, whereas 99% will look the doctor in the eye and say "100%". A few will say something like "90% sure", or "I don't actually believe in abortion by my case is different", or "I don't actually want a termination but my husband will leave me if I don't". In those cases, she wont perform the termination on that day but will refer the women to an independent counsellor and given more time. Not a single person who has been turned away has ever been visibly upset or angry, most appear relieved. That's not to say that none of the women who were sure of their decision were sad afterwards. These women accept that there is no easy outcome to an unplanned pregnancy either way, but they accept this as their choice and take responsibility for it and move on.

A typical cause of sadness after terminating a pregnancy is associated with the breakdown of the relationship, not actually the abortion itself. "Mr Right" who told her that he loved her, wants to get married and have kids, when faced with an unplanned pregnancy, says "your going to have an abortion aren't you?" A decision which she may have taken hours or days to make takes him milliseconds to make.

Right-to-lifers insistence that women should suffer with ongoing grief, are fuelled from a desire to punish these women, not from any concern for them.

"So I have no time for the women who can't get over their abortions. They obviously didn't want to have a termination in the first place. While I feel sorry for them, I also refuse to buy into the pro-life line that every abortion will cause grief."

Agree with Jewely this is harsh. Your compassion for women who experience high risk pregnancies and in some cases premature birth or miscarriage is strongly juxtaposed against this statement.

Why is it so difficult to believe that women who have abortions might feel some level of regret or pain, or that the decision is an easy one. You assume all women are the same in the same way as some of OLO's more virulent anti-feminist posters.

Your experiences or those of the people you know are not relevant to the experiene of other women and each experience is different and as such should be respected.

I have never had to make that choice, but I know I would feel grief and regret now that I am a mother. An old friend had an abortion and still feels the pain of it today.

Many religious people seek abortions. Religion only plays a role in discussions of abortion in the public sphere but these sorts of decisions sit wholly within the private and personal domain.

@ Philo

Surgical abortion does not increase the risk of breast cancer. Around the world, reproductive health and anti-cancer organisations have rejected any association between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer. This rejection is based on reliable scientific investigation, documented in reputable medical publications, and has been endorsed by the World Health Organisation (see http://www.awhn.org.au/content/view/27/76/#_edn1). One study published in the Lancet medical journal in 2004 was an analysis of 53 studies, involving 83,000 women with breast cancer from 16 countries, which found that ‘pregnancies that end as a spontaneous or induced abortion do not increase a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer’(Lancet 2004; 363: 1007-16).

Surgical abortion is also not a cause of future infertility or trouble carrying a pregnancy to term. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the UK, with a position supported by the Australian and New Zealand College, identifies that there are no proven associations between induced abortion and subsequent ectopic pregnancy, placenta praevia or infertility. RANZCOG state that 'women who have an uncomplicated termination are not at an increased risk of being infertile in the future' (http://www.ranzcog.edu.au/womenshealth/pdfs/Termination-of-pregnancy.pdf).

Yes, there is an element of relief after an abortion of an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy, however, I am told there is always a form of guilt associated with an abortion for any reason.

Women who have abortions are made to feel guilty by the words and actions of others who may never have been in their position, and by some who have deep religious objections to abortions.

Some poor women are 'forced' into abortions by their parents or partners who don't want to support her during an unplanned pregnancy. I can see sadness after these women have their abortions.

Of course the women who have abortions early in pregnancy for serious abnormalities in the foetus would most likely suffer from serious grief and depression after losing a much wanted baby.

However, at the end of the day, it is up to the pregnant woman, the baby's father, and her doctor, whether she has an abortion or not, and I am sure most women are given adequate advice before abortion is allowed these days.

It is legal in Australia, and is the woman's choice- as it should be.

Because we are all individual and encounter different circumstances in life I'd be reluctant to say some women have no reason to deeply regret a surgical abortion.

Example: a relative had a termination in her teens. She had no support from the father, feared her parents reaction and no financial security. In mid-twenties she married, had an ectopic pregnancy, lost a fallopian tube then failed to conceive again. The marriage eventually floundered. In her later thirties and a stable relationship she was desperate to have a baby. After many IVF attempts she conceived but miscarried at 13 weeks. More unsuccessful tries and then in her forties, they gave up. He had 2 kids by a previous but she was really sad and pondered her 'misspent youth'. However she was honest and said that back then, she could not have coped with motherhood.

I know and know of more women who have had terminations than the average citizen and will state emphatically that the majority have few or no regrets. Many will make the decision with a degree of sadness but most have been as desperate NOT to reproduce as some unfortunate couples are the opposite. Most just want it over with and are immensely relieved afterward. The occasional woman seems to experience mild 'baby blues' a couple of days afterwards - perhaps as result of the hormonal switch similar to birth. Same with women who spontaneously abort - and I wish I had $10 for every one of those who were quite delighted to have done so. Quite a few would not consider an abortion but to miscarry an unwanted pregnancy was a boon they weren't going to complain about. Is that a SIN in the pro-lifer handbook?

However it is not for any of us to judge - either a woman's decision to carry or not carry a pregnancy or whether she has a 'right' to regret anything at a later time. Suffice that if she becomes a mother by choice or accident that the child is reared with love and it's needs met.

Great piece well said and well done.

I am hesitant to get involved in this discussion and I have been told quite clearly before, that as a male I have no right. Make of that what you will.

I am equally, or even more-so hesitant, as this is such an incredibly emotional issue for all concerned and I fear causing upset or offence, especially to those who have experienced abortion. I trust that I can speak clearly and sensitively.

Some years ago, I assisted my wife in writing a major work regarding abortion in Australia. It was widely researched and well referenced. It was not written with any particular agenda. The part that has always stuck with me was the 95%+ of the over 100 000 women interviewed, who gave "inconvenient time to have a child" as the reason. (I regret that I cannot put my hand on the research at this moment but will try to post when I do).

I cannot pretend that I understand what sort of a decision this is to make. I cannot pretend that I know what it would be like to give birth to a child who was not planned or desired at the time (I hope I worded that OK). I cannot imagine what someone would go through, having made that decision. However, I also cannot get past the figure I have quoted above.

Please do not reply by asking "What about rape?" or "What about danger to the mother?" Both of those are separate issues and account for less than 1% of all abortions.

So what's my point? I guess I just want people to think a bit more about what tends to be a black and white topic in most people's minds.

*"Mr Right" who told her that he loved her, wants to get married and have kids, when faced with an unplanned pregnancy, says "your going to have an abortion aren't you?" *

Gawd, if they only taught basic biology to kids at school, we might
have far less of these dramas in society.

No matter how hard they try, women will not turn men into women.
Its a basic biological fact that most men have an innate urge to have
a woman in their bed occasionally. If that only happened when they
had found the perfect woman, their sex lives would be pretty crook.

So it won't happen in the real world. Men will say things to follow
their biological urges, that is the reality. The best thing that
parents can do, is to educate their daughters about such realities.

Women OTOH in this case, can be torn between that ultimate of
dichotomies, what they think and what they feel. Pregnancy triggers
the release of all sorts of hormones, designed to bond the mother
with the potential future offspring.

So women may rationally think through the ramifications of having
a child and realise that its not a good idea, yet emotionally feel
churned up about the thought of an abortion. What we think and
feel can be direct opposites.

Reason will never dominate emotions, the endocrine system is too
powerfull. But it helps to learn to think about what we feel and
why, it leads to understanding.

At the end of the day, women have around 400 chances to have another
cute baby, no doubt loved with all that motherly love. Nearly
all of them are flushed down life's toilet, that is the reality
and it's also part of the the basics of Darwinian evolution theory.
Ignore it at your peril

RD:”The part that has always stuck with me was the 95%+ of the over 100 000 women interviewed, who gave "inconvenient time to have a child" as the reason.”

Bloody hell, really? Was it in like a list of questions like list A had “inconvenient time” + other stuff? It was the only reason for that many? Wonder what the word inconvenient meant to them…

Yabby did you just say women can’t overcome their emotions to make rational decisions?

Jewely - as I said, I will try to find the research, though it is a bit old now. My recollection is that people were not asked to tick a box from a list, rather, give the reason for the abortion which was then categorised by the study author.

That's not surprising- lots of women need to abort a baby they don't want to due to risk of their own lives, or the baby may have been found to have some terminal development that would make continuing the pregnancy pointless due to likely death or disability preventing functioning.
Others might have simply not been able to care for a child due to social/obligations/financial constraints.

These would cause a lot of grief, but at the end of the day these are still babies that they would not have been able to care for anyway, so they did the right thing by terminating their pregnancies.

Having said that, strong counseling before and after is absolutely vital, and personally, something I consider should be a basic right subsidized by the taxpayer.

*Yabby did you just say women can’t overcome their emotions to make rational decisions?*

No Jewely I did not, for that would be a foolish thing to say.
For a start, we are all just a little different in terms of genetics
and experiences and all those things will effect the final output
of the brain.

So let me try and explain it to you this way. The brain is made
up of different centres, for want of a better word. Long term
memory, short term memory, emotional centres, the amygdala which
stores past traumatic experiences, plus a heap of biochemicals,
all interacting and competing.

Every thought that you have, is coloured by all these things, aware
of it or not.

When it comes to rational thought, women have a whole bunch
of extra hormonal inputs, such as motherly love, which help
cloud and confuse the picture.

So a decision like abortion is more difficult for alot of women.
Alot of women commonly also go through life, following their
feelings, with the inevitable disaster that follows. Emotional
engulfment has its consequences.

But there are also plenty of women who have learned to understand
the dichotomy and have learned to think about what they feel and why

Yabby that is what confuses me because surely only the super rational/hormonally challenged ones would choose an abortion because wouldn’t the hormones etc be in full force?

They’d be fighting that motherly love in the midst of a chemical rush?
Maybe the hormone that rejects being inconvenienced is a stronger one or it’s a natural fear of the unknown (or the known) hormone which I could understand and then their rational bits change it all around to sound more… rational.

I’ve slipped there and suspect I’ve probably insulted females somehow.

KH:”These would cause a lot of grief, but at the end of the day these are still babies that they would not have been able to care for anyway, so they did the right thing by terminating their pregnancies.”

I think us humans look back with the whole ‘if we only knew then…’ and wonder if we did do the right thing. I don’t know how abortions work or who sits down with the women and talks to them about what they do know now.

*because surely only the super rational/hormonally challenged ones would choose an abortion because wouldn’t the hormones etc be in full force?*

Jewely, we each tend to see the world through our own limited
perspective. As a motherly type, that is how you may see it,
but look around you. If that were the case, you would not be dealing
with so many foster kids. Everyone's endocrine system varies along
with their genetics. Everyone's experiences do too, which creates
the many competing inputs at the level of reasoning, which we are
aware of.

Counselling is a good idea, for like psychiatry, what it does is make
people think about what they feel and why. That way they are less
likely to scar their amygdala for life, the amygdala being the reason
why people just can't get over stuff for the rest of their lives.

The amygdala evolved, to protect us from danger, by reminding us
of traumatic experiences or anything associated with them. So if
a lion roars behind you, you will jump 6 ft without even thinking.
But it also stores other traumatic experiences or anything associated
with them or similar.

So if somebody goes through a rushed abortion and the whole thing
is traumatic, for whatever reason, they will be scarred for life.
Thinking about all the pros and cons and making a more considered
decision, should greatly reduce the chances of that.

I am motherly but if I knew then what I know now – or rather didn’t know then who I know now I would have gone down the path of multiple contraceptives at all times. Someone should do a study on how guilty mothers feel who now realize what a stupid stupid thing having children was.

I had no idea some little gland thing could get scarred for life and remind us. Some events must occasionally wear off because as time goes on we stop being afraid of the dark. I haven’t yet but I’ve met people who are completely over it.

If someone had brain damage and lost their memories would the amygdale still work or does it require an associated memory to trigger it? I’d google it Yabby but you’re better at getting to the point.

What I am understanding about abortion is that the writer of the article is pretty harsh and that although a woman who planned an abortion intended to accept it the circumstances for whatever reason likely did some permanent damage which later emerged as grief.

Evelyn:”Abortion offers just one thing only – an end to a pregnancy. You either accept that, or don't have an abortion.”

Woah.

Jewely, a fair point you make:

"I think us humans look back with the whole ‘if we only knew then…’ and wonder if we did do the right thing. I don’t know how abortions work or who sits down with the women and talks to them about what they do know now."

It still remains that back then, the pregnant lady did not know what she now does, and the baby would have suffered from it accordingly.

I think what jumped out at me from this article is that it seems to be about all people being lumped emotionally in the same box, and if you claim that you are suffering grief after an abortion, then your feelings are not legitimate. Human's though have a variety of responses to difficult events in their life.

I've known people for instance that have given up babies for adoption. One has no regrets, another wishes she had an abortion. Probably some people would accuse both women of being selfish for different reasons. It all depends on your world view. These two women though came to their position because they were the ones who lived the experience and they have the full right to tell someone who tells them that their feelings are wrong to butt out.

Probably most women who have an abortion are fully comfortable with the decision they made. They know what the circumstances were that led to them making this choice. But it doesn't invalidate any feelings of grief that other women might have to their abortions.

JL Deland, I think you are somewhat right in saying that the article possibly lumps everyone into the same box, however the main point that the writer makes is in dispelling the claim made by right-to-lifers that all women will be crippled with grief.

It's possibly normal and common to have feelings of sadness after a termination, perhaps about the possible breakdown of the relationship or lack of support from family, but right-to-life propaganda pushes the lie that most women will be crippled by grief for the rest of their lives.

This lie is further propagated in movies and on TV dramas when a central character has a termination. The woman never expresses relief and gets on with her life (like the vast majority do), the scripts are typically written to maximise the drama by showing the character suffering in grief, affecting all around her.

Evelyn writes

'However, a great many others – for whom abortion was their choice, for whatever reason - accept their decision, are relieved by it and move on.' Yea a great many men rape women with no regret and move on. All this proves is the selfishness and hard heartedness of those who promote these views. What a sick article.

I kinda suspect the writer doesn’t like abortion for anything other than medical reasons and even then you should probably tough it out Runner. Was it the meek or the weak that were going to inherit?

KH:”It still remains that back then, the pregnant lady did not know what she now does, and the baby would have suffered from it accordingly.”

Yep, but not for long. Poor wee things. I’m anti-need for abortion I decided. The fence may yet collapse under me.

promote what views, runner - that rape without regret is OK? That pregnancy as a result of rape should not be aborted and should be endured? What were you saying about selfishness and hard heartedness and certain views?

I don’t really rate this article, full credit to the women who endured through the difficult circumstances to give birth at great personal danger. However that premise is not a standard that every potential mother should be measured against.

“These women all went back and had another baby. Just as I did – knowing the cost to their health.”

Is this irresponsible/selfish?

It’s all great if things go well however what about the risk of your existing child growing up without a mother.
I have been involved in a situation where a mother, against medical advice chose to try and have another child and unfortunately for all involved she didn’t make it through the pregnancy.

*I had no idea some little gland thing could get scarred for life and remind us.*

Jewely, the interactions are pretty complex, a bloke called Joseph
LeDoux discovered the role of the amygdala in not getting over trauma
etc.

When I learned about it, things started to make sense to me. My
old man committed suicide and his last words were to tell his father
that he was a bastard. He just could not get over his childhood.
At last I started to understand why.

Similarly, I once lost the roof of my house in a freak storm.
Every time a similar wind blows, my pulse increases and I become
anxious, long before I start to think about it. Now I know why.

I haven't checked, but I'm sure that a place like Wicki might further
explain the role of the amygdala. Understanding its function helps
understand the human behaviour that we see around us.

In the end, the mind is what the brain does.

Jewely- that is also possible- but I think so long as there is quality advice given by counselors, and still no recommendations that could allow her to retain the child and actually help raise him/her in a proper environment where their needs can actually be met, then abortion is still the right choice.

McReal
'promote what views, runner - that rape without regret is OK? That pregnancy as a result of rape should not be aborted and should be endured? What were you saying about selfishness and hard heartedness and certain views?

I thought my point was obvious. The emotional response of the woman having her baby killed does not in itself justify the decision. Some deeply regret rape or murder others don't. The emotional response does not justify the behaviour. Calloused hearts justify all kinds of actions.

Thanks Yabby I’m going to go learn some more. Your poor dad. I just lost a little more hope for the children I have known, not that a lot was there to start with.

Runner:”…The emotional response does not justify the behaviour. Calloused hearts justify all kinds of actions.”

Like Sophie’s choice.

I agree KH. I’d like to think it’s a decision made after much consideration and soul searching but without a crystal ball who can predict how they will feel at any time afterwards. If they later grieve then they have my sympathy. It may have been the right choice at the right time for the right reasons but that’s all that rational thinking again that ignores what Yabby has explained.

If the women whose stories appeared in "Giving Sorrow Words" were women who didn't want an abortion and can't cope with the situation, shouldn't our response be to ask why they were having unwanted abortions in the first place? One of the major themes of this book is that most decisions for abortion are made under conditions of reduced freedom -- due to pressure, abuse, coercion, lack of viable options, lack of information and proper counseling, etc.

Rather than blame women for not being able to cope with this, we should be calling out the abortion industry and abortion advocates for opposing common sense measures like making sure women are screened for coercion and pre-existing risk factors for psychological problems. To tell women who were dependent on support they never received that the problem is that they just didn't want the baby enough is incredibly callous.

I’d prefer to screen the people that blame them for psychological problems.

In the 1970's a medical missionary friend working in Africa was raped by several invading soldiers. She chose not to have an abortion because the child was as much hers as the father of the child she will never know whom. She has no regrets of having a healthy daughter.

AmyR, I'm sure the regretful women who told their stories in the book all presented compelling arguments for having a termination at the time. No woman presenting to a legitimate termination clinic can have a termination after just turning up and asking for one without being counselled on what their situation is and making sure that they are certain of their decision and that it IS THEIR decision (without coercion). Doctors can be held accountable for any failure to do this for ANY medical procedure, including abortion.

I agree that women are making their decisions because they lack viable options, have reduced freedom, are under emotional stress, drug or alcohol problems, abuse etc, but the woman has no way of knowing that these conditions will worsen or improve over time and what the outcome will be if she brings a child into this situation. She can only make the best decision for herself and her family under the current circumstances after careful consideration. If her situation improves for the better 10 years later but she is now too old to have children and she is regretful of her earlier termination, it's sad, but that's life. How could anyone have known how things would turn out?

Do you think women and their partners are not to be trusted to make decisions for themselves and need to be coerced into continuing the pregnancy because some right-to-life "counsellor" knows better?

Crumpethead, if you read the book you would find that this is precisely what the author is saying: that woman DO have abortions "without being counselled on what their situation is and making sure that they are certain of their decision and that it IS THEIR decision (without coercion)."

The book includes much more detail than I have space to quote here, but the author quotes from a U.K. government report that found that for many women, abortion is an "irreversible act chosen without sufficient knowledge." (p. 36) There is also this from an article in the "Australian Journal of Sex, Marriage and Family": "Two major criticisms can be directed at the present system. First, abortion counseling is not readily available to all women seeking abortions, and second, it could be argued that some of the counseling that is done in the private sector is more concerned with 'appearances' and evidentiary matters than the genuine well-being of the clients ... counseling should be independent of the abortion service in both the public and the private sectors." (p. 34)

The testimonies of a former abortion clinic nurse and the women in the book -- including women who describe themselves as pro-choice on abortion -- support this conclusion. It isn't that women cannot be trusted, but rather, that women cannot trust abortion clinics to provide them with the information they need and to act in their best interests. This is why the measures I have described are so needed.

Amy:”This is why the measures I have described are so needed.”

These ones?

Amy:”we should be calling out the abortion industry and abortion advocates for opposing common sense measures like making sure women are screened for coercion and pre-existing risk factors for psychological problems.”

It sounds simple and like a good idea but then so does sending a snow ball down a hill.

I’d not want to see woman coerced by shrinks into having unwanted children either or the sneaking in of any laws where a woman with identified psych problems is denied an abortion. I suspect the power we give our psychologists etc is already at dangerous levels.

Maybe a little sign outside a clinic saying “Google it” would be enough.

If women actually WANT decision making counselling, then great, they can. Medicare already reimburses consultations with GPs and registered psychologists who provide independent counselling. And remember in 2007, Tony Abbott introduced a free, pregnancy counselling hotline and despite Government advertising and a great deal of media attention at the time that it was introduced, the hotline received about 430 calls a month during the first 9 months.

I suspect that the "counselling" you would like to be made mandatory, would require all women be made to view an ultrasound, or photos of a late term fetuses (even though the woman may be only 5 weeks), or given statistics and literature which is not based on peer reviewed evidence but flawed studies performed by right-to-life interests and rejected by medical bodies. This is not counselling by any definition.

In a free country where we trust people to make potentially life changing decisions themselves without mandated counselling, eg. getting married, having children, buying a house, going into business, etc etc, many of these choices later end up in catastrophe but I don't hear anyone advocating that the government legislate to make counselling mandatory for these decisions.

To have a termination is a decision that ultimately can only be made by the woman, hopefully with the support of her partner or family. Like all medical procedures, if a woman feels that information provided by the doctor was not truthful or failed to warn of risks, it would be easy to sue the doctor for failing to obtain informed consent. I wonder how many of Tankard Reist's women ever had their claims tested in court?