Father Dave, I can understand why the good citizens of Marrickville might wonder over local govt venturing into international affairs. However, I am of great age and antiquity and a relic of the anti-apartheid campaign of the 1970s. It amazes me how, on so many topics, there is a collective amnesia resulting in the syndrome of Five Minute Memories (FMMs).

The comments I hear over BDS are very similar to the ones made against the South African boycotts. Australia's S/African boycotts made a major contribution to the downfall of apartheid. Desmond Tutu has thanked and praised us for this and he is a supporter of BDS.

Nelson Mandela was not always the sainted personage he is to-day. The African National Congress was, once upon a time, regarded as a creature of violence and not respectable at all. Sporting Boycotts were ludicrous and people said sport and politics should not mix. We started with sporting boycotts within the sphere of the Commonwealth nations. Later this moved to trade boycotts supported and implemented by the Australian Government.

The whole point of boycotts is that they tend to begin at the bottom with citizens, passionate organisations. Only later do they become widespread and/or get taken up by governments and get an official and respectable imprimatur.

Australians need to recognise that Israel is a religious state which not only discriminates against those who are not Jewish, they discriminate against their own i.e. progressive/reform/secular Jews. So many of us who were once supportive of Israel find we can no more. Israel has become a ghetto-building apartheid state which commits its own share of war crimes while willing to critique any resistance to ethnic cleansing as terror.

Why arent we Israel's brother's keeper!
Israel is the first country to put their hand up to go and help and give aid....even to palestine!
The world need to really wake up and have a look at what is going on.
Israel is a nation of Peace....But why should they give up what is there's because they are being bullied....
Israel do not show they are better than anyone because they are the Holy Land!! They welcome everyone and help everyone? They are their brother's keeper, and we can all learn a thing or two by the way they conduct themselves....If i lost my daughter in the fighting, of course i would be hurt, angry & heartbroken...but who would be too blame? A country who is defending themselves or the country that is attacking to force them to give up their rights due to their own evil desires of control! Israel will stand forever no matter who comes against it? But all those who are against Israel will be cursed and all those who stand with her will be Blessed... we see what happens in the countries that dont support Israel! Which side do you choose?

angelmaree, that has to be about the most bizarre post I have ever read. Were you not aware that Palestine does not exist? Were you not aware that Palestinians live under a military occupation? The Israeli's want their land but do not want the people. They do not welcome everybody. Only Jews can immigrate freely to Israel. The Palestinians who were driven from their land on the creation of the state of Israel are not free to return. The Palestinians living in the Occupied West Bank do not have the vote. They are not citizens of Israel. They are not citizens of Palestine as no such country exists yet. And the land for that proposed country is being stolen by Israel who is building settlements on it.
The Palestinians living in Gaza are not able to leave Gaza. It is essentially a giant prison. The fishermen cannot fish. The farmers cannot sell their goods. The builders cannot buy concrete to rebuild the homes that have been destroyed by Israeli bombs. Apparently the Israelis are concerned that some of the concrete may be used to build bunkers so the Palestinians can protect themselves from being killed by Israeli bombs. And you idolise the people who commit these atrocities

Well put Dave; Angelmaree's response is a clear example of the sad ignorance about the theft of Palestinians land by modern Israel ,riding on the wave of compassion for Holocaust survivors,as they systematically bulldozed Arab homes to build settlements in defiance of UN resolutions.

We should not underestimate the Zionist reaction to the effectiveness of the BDS campaign and their hand in mounting this strategy to discredit supporters of BDS and intimidate Marrickville Council,the Greens and the ALP in NSW State Politics to back off for fear of losing votes from the Jewish Community.

What many Australians do not know is that progressive Jews who are conscious of the Ethnic Cleansing being carried out by the Israel Defence Force, actually support the non violent BDS Campaign.

This nonsense is clear evidence of our ridiculous multi cultural policies which have failed dismally. The only democratically and civilised community in the middle east is Israel and now we have a selected lefist version of history brainwashing many leading to bizarre actions.Why not rally against the bomb attacks against innocent civilians. No of course that would not fit the ideological dogma of those who secretly want Israel wiped off the map.

Runner, you know full well that Israel is neither Democratic nor Civilized. Israel is an aggressive,military,Jewish State that will bring about it's own downfall if it continues it's present refusal to honestly participate in peace talks

"The men, women and children of Palestine are human beings worthy of respect, and the violation of their human rights is something that should offend us all. "

Thank You Dave Smith. Thank You for taking the time to write.

Our own ignorance in society about these issues are our demise.

http://www.miacat.com/

Father Dave, I could dispute your liberal theological views, or your stand on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but think that you've glossed over the real issue here. Local government has no place to meddle in the business of Australia's foreign policy. That's what Federal Government is for.

A Government can only represent those for whom they have responsibility. As a Perth resident, I would not expect the Victorian Government to govern over our state issues. Similarly, I would not expect the Marrickville council to determine which night my bins are emptied.

Unless you have a nation-wide mandate, do not speak or take action on behalf of the Australian people!

Dear runner,

Firstly let me just say that:

I don't think anyone wants Israel "wiped off the map," as you put it.
But why is the world told to believe that the Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's terms? And why is anyone who dares to criticise Israel subjected to abuse and threats? (You're either with us or against us). Neither side has a monopoly on suffering but only one side has the power to end the occupation and to recognise that
Israel and Palestine are historically destined to share the same homeland.

Secondly, as the Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd said:

"The Australian Government has consistently supported a negotiated two-state solution to the Middle East peace process where Israel and a future Palestinian state live side by side in peace and security."

Therefore, state politicians should stay out of this area and not interfere in the Federal Government's policies. The Federal Government has made it quite clear that they prefer to support negotiations and engage in dialogue rather than support boycotts.
It would appear that the media does indeed have an agenda and is playing the issue up.

During the Vietnam War, as the Union Movement became politiced against the War, Australia's Conservative Government of the day claimed that issues such as the War was nothing to do with Unions whose function was to limit their activity to wage & conditions issues.
The Union Movement coined the slogan "Peace is Union Business"

In the same spirit,the continued oppression of Palestinian Arabs by Zionist Israel is the business of every world citizen; particularly when our Government discriminates as to where they will defend Human Rights and turns a blind eye to the Crimes against Humanity being perpetrated against the Palestinians

If I had members of my family living in Gaza I might want my local council, MP, hairdresser and footy team to take up my cause, but that doesn’t mean they should.

Local authorities have no expertise in international affairs, and negligible capacity to influence them. They do have responsibility for a range of important human services, and as good stewards acting on behalf of their communities should focus on these areas. This doesn’t mean that as individuals they should not actively support the Palestinians, but it does mean they should do it in appropriate times and places. To compare people who respect these boundaries with Germans who failed to challenge Hitler is absurd.

I also think the author’s compassion seems selective. I agree that “the men, women and children of Palestine are human beings worthy of respect, and the violation of their human rights is something that should offend us all.” I believe that is also true of innocent Israelis bombed by Palestinians. And the people of Libya, Sierra Leone, North Korea, Southern Sudan, Iran, Cuba, Somalia and a host of other countries with human rights records that are worse than Israel’s.

I believe for local authorities to take up BDS is ineffectual moral vanity and grandstanding. The author says “we human beings are great at avoiding our responsibilities while maintaining an air of self-righteous virtuosity!” To my mind, that sums up his own position magnificently.

We only hear the argument that local councils should stay out of international affairs when it suits the Israel first lobby.

The shakedown of European banks during the 90s only worked because powerful US States like NY and counties like Orange county threatened to boycot any European bank that didn't pay up. Jewish groups got billions.

Boycots are not only a legitimate form of demonstration but a moral imperative. How can I buy good from Israeli businesses which then funnel funds into extremist settler groups?

And then we get the tired references to the holocaust. Andrew Bolt, who I actually support on many issues, even posted a picture of a Nazi boycott sign on a Jewish business during the 30s. I think people are getting a bit tired of the holocaust being trotted out whenever it suits the political goals of the Israel First lobby.

I would never vote Greens but fully support the boycott.

The ongoing attempt by the loony left to paint Israel as an 'apartheid' state, in the mould of South Africa under white rule, is a FRAUD. It is deliberately designed to sidestep the complex issues involved in favour of a simpler and more palatable narrative that ‘coincidentally’ aligns with so called ‘progressive’ othorodoxy.

Miss Eagle’s comments are the perfect example of this fatous policy.

She says “ Nelson Mandela was not always the sainted personage he is to-day. The African National Congress was, once upon a time, regarded as a creature of violence and not respectable at all.”

This a fatuous attempt to recast the image of Palestinian terrorist’s leaders in the minds of western audiences. It is a fraudulent manipulation and it bears no scrutiny. The suicide attacks on innocent civilians ordered by Palestinian leaders have no parallel in the history of the ANC. The fact that Jews are the majority in Israel also has no parallel in South African apartheid. The fact that Israel has universal sufferage is likewise, totally at odds with this dishonest comparison

The fact is they need to paint the terrorists as freedom fighters in the style of Nelson Mandela, in order to justify their attacks on Israel. A more honest examination would show that there is undoubtedly fault on both sides. Choosing good guys and bad guys, in such a complex situation can only have one motivation, an ideological one. The far left has a deep and unabiding hatred of the US and Israel. They see enemies of Israel, regardless of their actions, as freedom fighters because its far more convenient that way. It’s a lot easier (and more advantageous) to sell the public the fraud that Israel = Apartheid.

cont'

cont,

Israel, a very small country of around six million people, is surrounded by enemies who regularly issue bloodythirsty threats. In its 60 year history, it's had to fight 3 wars for national survival. Upon becoming a state, 5 arab armies attempted to drive the Israelis into the sea. In 1968 and 1973, they tried again. Within its borders Israel must confront suicide bombers and other terrorists. In the territories they again have suicide bombers and short range mortar and rocket attacks. In Lebanon, they face attacks from tens of thousands of Hezbolah medium range rockets and provocative raids on Israeli territory. Syria keeps its guns pointed at Israel as well, Iran funds terrorist organisations to attack Israel and is pursuing a nuclear weapon program with which to threaten Israel and its Arab neighbours.

The UN partition plan which paved the way for Israel to become a state, spoke of an Arab state,and a Jewish state to be formed from the mandate of Palestine. Regardless of where the borders should be drawn, and I broadly support the 1967 green line, Israel has every right to be a Jewish state. It further has the right, as well as the undisputable resposnsibility, to protect it citizens.

Israel has laws designed to protect the Jewish nature of the country. It should surprise noone that the loony left have NOTHING to say about the fact that EVERY Islamic country has rigid laws to ensure that the Islamic nature of their countries is upheld. But they simply can't transfer this acceptance to Israel. Why? because its ideological.

PaulL

First class rant but we don't believe the hyperbole anymore.

These are the people who forge their 'allies' passports and 'kidnap' people in third countries and smuggle them out back to Israel. They sell arms to whoever is willing to pay.

They are out of control. They have no morals; only self-interest.

Quote: The men, women and children of Palestine are human beings worthy of respect, and the violation of their human rights is something that should offend us all.

I don't think so. The fact is that these people - Palestinians - are the same ones that want to exterminate Jews. These people are Muslims, and because Muslims don't respect others, they deserve no respect. Since Muslims, everywhere they dominate, discriminate against non-Muslims, they deserve no respect. It has to be a two-way street. When I see Muslims in Islamic countries changing their ways, we can talk. When the Palestinians accept the right of the Jewish people to live, we can talk.

Or perhaps you think that what Muslims do has nothing to do attitudes towards them? Look at the little girl whipped to death last week by Muslims, under sharia law, based upon Mohammad's actions and words (the necklace affair after Mohammed'ds attack on the banu al-Mustaliq). Look at the UN workers barbarically killed because of the actions of some idiot in Florida. Why did they do it? Read Quran 9:111 and note Muslims have found that outrage, hate and violence make them respected. This comes directly from Mohammad himself, who said "I am made victorious with terror".

No, Mr. Smith, a people that lives only to destroy others does not deserve respect. The suffering of the Palestinians is self inflicted and used by other Muslims to gain sympathy. The Jews are doing what they can in a very bad situation. Even so, on any day of the week, Israel with all its faults is morally superior to people that say "Praise be upon him" after the name of a man that did so many horrible deeds.

There is no hope for the Middle East. Muslims do not want peace and will not live peacefully with non-Muslims - not in Israel, not in Europe, not in Australia, not anywhere - it is just a matter of time and numbers.

NO. We are most definitely no Brothers of a backward Islamist nation like Palestine and should NOT be keepers of nations like these.

In fact, if we were smart we would not be making solidarity gestures that extreme Wahabi Islamists might notice (especially as some might contemplate moving into a society that shows such support).

We should be criticizing Israel when it steps out of line, but specifically endorsing Palestine is short-sighted, emotionally-driven stupidity.
There has even been a study showing that Islamists who thought less of a country (be it Palestine policy, Mohamamd cartoons (eg Denmark)) have also reduced interest in travelling or living there. This is a GOOD THING.
Don't cut the nose just to spite the face at Israel.

Dane,

I wonder if you think that Israel’s is the only intelligence agency which uses false passports. I think you should read spy catcher. It’s not a Jewish thing.

It should be instructive to everyone that there is, and never will be, any leftist BDS against Russia. This supposedly democratic state, which kidnaps and drugs its own citizens who speak out against it, is the world’s largest illegal arms dealer. Its brutally suppresses insurgencies in the south, bombing entire villages without attempting to target combatants. Russia currently occupies significant portions of Georgia, after successfully prosecuting a war against the small state.

The country is dominated by an ex KGB agent, whose has held onto power by finding a loophole in the law, which has allowed him to take on the role of prime minister. He is the leader of the new Russian klepto-state, which has shifted the wealth of the country to high ranking ex members of the communist party.

When you and the BDS cheer squad on the left are ready to begin a BDS targeting Russia, then we might start to take you seriously. But I don’t imagine that will be any time soon, because they are missing a crucial political characteristic. An alliance with the US.

Am I my Afghan and Pakistani sister's keeper?

PaulL

I'm not on the left at all. I couldn't imagine voting Labor. It's appalling that the Liberals have been captured by the Jewish lobby.

Your point about Russia is irrelevant. We don't treat Russia as, and Russia doesn't claim to be, a liberal secular democracy like Israel does. Russians do not constitute a well funded, well-connected lobby group which is very successful in defending Russian over Australian interests. And no, I actually have not heard of another country with so few friends abusing the relationships with those it does have like Israel does. Most countries work hard at bilateral relations and don't take the attitude that they can do what they want because a powerful local lobby group will 'fix'it.

One similarity is that both Russia and Jews suffered terribly under the Nazis. Of course, the Russians suffered much worse with perhaps 20,000,000 dead. Most people wouldn't kmow it though because there aren't multimillion dollar memorials in every major city about the Russian dead.

Dane,

Actually, its your point thats irrelevant. Few Australians will support a campaign directed solely at Israel that defends its singular focus on the grounds that Israel should do better because its a liberal democracy. Australians won't accept the outrageous double standard which says its OK to attack israel for certain types of behaviour, whilst remaining silent about similar (and often far worse) behaviour by the Palestinans and indeed anti-western regimes internatonally.

Regardless of your own personal voting habits, the BDS campaign in the west is a leftist movement. It is born out the long-time support by socialist organisations for revolutionary movements in the middle east and elsewhere. The only other historically anti-Israel group in this country is the far right nationalists. Guess which group makes up the bulk of the green movement these days? SWAMPIES. Thats who.

The BDS movement is founded upon the belief that Israel has no right to exist at all. Regardless of the supporters its attracts along the way, the goal is to destroy Israel. It seeks to achieve this by the forced amalgamation of Israel and the Palestinian territories into a single democratic state. In this single democratic state, Muslims will be the majority, and, like every other Muslim country in the world, Islam will be the state religion, and Jews will be persecuted and driven out. Anyone who has any doubts about this needs their head read.

Even if I accepted the claims that Israel discriminates against it Arab citizens, and I don't, a succesful BDS will only reverse that situation, not stamp out discrimination. It would be simply changing top dog.

Whilst I don’t agree with some of Israel’s actions, the BDS is certainly not the solution. Those who support the BDS have chosen ‘goodies’ and ‘baddies’ based upon political ideology and it bears litte resemblance to the ground truth. A two state solution is the only solution which will work for both parties. It can only be achieved by negotiation and compromise on behalf of both parties. Focusing on one side only will undoubtedly be counterproductive.

PaulL

"Actually, its your point thats irrelevant"

It was you who raised Russia not me. In any case, I am well aware Jews and Israelis find the suffering of non-Jews (goyim?) irrelevant. That was my point. To Jews and Israelis nothing else matters except Israel. Palestininas, Australians, Russians (even 20,000,000 of them), Americans...all irrelevant.

Israelis have developed an extreme siege mentality. It has led to a sort of national pschosis. I don't believe in a two state solution anymore. Israel doesn't want it anyway. Eventually they will be forced to accept majority Palestinian rule just like the white South Africans did. Many Jews will immigrate to the US but the remainder will form a minority ruling class. Look at the changes going on in the ME already. Tyrants are falling. When their neighbours become legitimate change in Israel will be inevitible. Only then, when they have made peace with their neighbours and become a regional economic powerhouse, will they become a normal country.

Dane,

You seem to be implying that I'm jewish or israeli, which is typical of the loony-lefts approach to this issue. Only jews or Israelis could possibly support Israel. Well. I'm neither, nor are the VAST majority of Australians who reject the extremism of a BDS.

You say Israel has develloped a siege mentality. Even if you had argued this point sucessfully (and all you've done is claim its a fact), you haven't demonstrated that a siege menatlity is a problem which requires an attack on Israel. In any case, how exactly do you imagine that a BDS will alleviate that?

You blather on about other peoples suffering, without stopping to acknowledge that the Jews were the victims of an orchestrated campaign to wipe them from the face of the earth. Russia suffered badly during WW2. But no-one rounded them up and executed industrial quantities of them with the express intention of wiping them out.

The attempts to compare Israel with South Africa are FRAUDULENT. The UN was responsible for the creation of Israel only 64 years ago. There is simply no legal basis for forcibly merging Israel with Palestine.

However it should be instructive to all Australians to know that those who support the BDS are truly attempting to destroy Israel. Your claim, for justification of this act, is that Israel is a liberal democracy. Could we please dwell on that for a second. You suggest that because Israel claims to be a liberal democracy, and doesn't meet the required standard, it should be merged with the territories to become a majority muslim country. This would be a country dominated by people who wallpaper their streets with the images of those who have died killing jews. And you fully accept that the end result would be that vast numbers of jews would be forced to flee the country. And you want to use the shield that the BDS is a humanitarian intervention.

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING.

ethnic cleansing by any other name is still ethnic cleansing.

• letter to Dave Smith‏

Mr. Smith, my initial reaction to you, when you chose to attack my genuine attempt to open up a reasoned dialogue about the right of Australians to see the faces of all other Australians in public was negative in the extreme. There you were- a so called man of the cloth. A better description, I believed would have been –a man of the other side of the blanket.
Israel has made positive contributions in abundance, and in many fields of endeavour. Their citizens deserve our utmost respect and support. They are our friends-our mates.
Let’s get things clear. As an Australian I will always support my mates. As an Australian I would not expect less from you. I do not see the reasoning in this instance for supporting a country at War with our friends. By boycotting, you support a tribal area that does not follow any democratic system, an area that uses its own population as human shields. It is a society on the other side of the world that stands against everything that Australians value. They have been at war for more than 70 years with their own people who are themselves divided on tribal and religious platforms.
You have a very socialist view on life. That’s your right in Australia but your contribution fosters disharmony. Socialists can progress, only when there is division and distrust in the community.
You may have dedicated your life to helping young people that have problems in life, giving a better option to these young people than their possibly committing horrid crimes in the future without you being there to protect them from themselves and their negative environments. Good on you. Nevertheless do all of us a favour and just keep doing your great work keeping these young people out of jail.
The GBDS is out of touch and out of date. You’re showing your shaky wisdom if you think that this Boycott has any chance of working. The world has changed and also how the world is to solve international issues has too. part 1

• letter to Dave Smith‏ part 2
You, the Socialists and the Greens are the only groups that see fit to create internal tension within Australia. There are already enough problems that need to be solved within Australia. The subject of Immigration and elements of Muslim / Islamic minority groups are also working against Australian values.
Australians in the next 6 months will be debating issues such as the full face covering bill, thus removing the Burqa and Niqab from becoming a greater problem in the future, and hopefully preventing many of the social problems facing Europe and England from gaining any foothold in Australia.
Unbalanced immigration by people from Muslim countries and especially from people entering via illegal boat travel is becoming another major problem and there is need of greater public debate. Hopefully you should start seeing the need for the very important and open discussions that Australians must have to solve the future problems that are rushing at us.
The BDS is a waste of everyone’s time. Your views are out dated and very last century. The Greens have now reached the top and only have one way to go, and that is down. The Carbon Tax will be the end of the Greens and, hopefully, all extreme left wing viewpoints.
Mr Smith if you do believe in peace and you do pray for justice then please pray very hard because if all goes well in the Middle East, the Arab people will see fit to develop a true Secular and democratic system, that will allow the Coptic Christians and Jews of the region to live in peace. The Arab people will need to take a monumental step and free themselves from the shackles of Submission and Slavery that the Islamic political, legal and religious Ideology represents

Dane,

Your vicious generalisations about “Jews and Israelis” reveal the racism underscoring your contributions here.

You talk about being “tired” of references to the holocaust. The article’s bizarre attempt to paint tolerance of Hitler and non-support for BDS as morally equivalent was the first part of this article and discussion eligible for Godwin’s law. Maracas1 was the second, and you the third – all hostile to Israel. If you find reference to the holocaust tiresome, I suggest you stop introducing it. More than 60% of Europe’s Jews died in the holocaust. This, and (DavidL has pointed out), the Nazis’ intent to kill all Jews makes the holocaust unique even in the bloodbath that was WW2.

I do not support Israel’s abuses of Palestinians’ rights, nor do I support not support Palestinians’ abuses of Israelis’ rights. I hope for a two-state solution bringing a just peace and autonomy for both Israelis and Palestinians, though I’m not naive enough to think that will happen soon or easily.

My main concern with the application of BDS at local authority level is twofold.

Firstly, its ineffectual moral vanity that seems designed to make its proponents feel good about themselves rather than delivering any tangible benefits for the Palestinians.

Secondly, its lack of a sense of proportion. For all Israel’s faults – and they are many – it cannot by any objective standard be deemed the worst human rights abuser in the world. If Dave Smith’s primary motivation was really borderless compassion for the suffering and oppressed then he’d be directing his attention to North Korea, Ivory Coast or the failed states of SW Asia. I do not deny that compassion for the Palestinians is part of his motivation, but his choice of target, and of victims to champion, suggests it is not the only one. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that – I guess most of us are influenced by our politics when decide that a country deserves particular condemnation. But it makes Dave’s inference that he is only motivated by fraternal compassion seem sanctimonious and self-serving.

DaveL and Rhian,

I only mentioned the holocaust because Australia's preeminent cheerleader for Israel, Andrew Bolt, posted a picture of a Jewish shop from 70 years ago with a Star of David sign on it. It is completely irrelevant to the proposed boycott and clearly misuses the holocaust (again) for current political gain.

But I don't want to get into the 'debate the holocaust as a distraction from current events trap' that so many Arab haters lay.

I think we really do live in interesting times. If the popular movements succeed in the ME, Israel will come under enormous pressure. Democratically elected Arab governments will have much more moral authority than the current tyrants. Israel will no longer be the only 'democracy' meaning it will no longer be able to claim strategic asset status to the US.

Nothing is certain and much could go wrong. But the Israelis know democracy might succeed in the ME and they are quaking. Nothing scares them more than peace and democracy in the ME because it makes them geopolitically redundant. If this happens the days of a Jewish majority in Israel will be numbered.

Call again in 2000 years please.

Dane

As I said, the holocaust was first mentioned in this thread by antagonists of Israel. If you think it a distraction, I suggest you don’t raise it.

Like you, I hope the current turmoil in the Middle East leads to democracy and the overthrow of tyrants. I disagree, however, that this is something Israel should fear. Democracies are much better than dictatorships at sorting out their differences peacefully, and at living with neighbours they’re not very fond of

Rhian,

'the holocaust was first mentioned in this thread by antagonists of Israel. If you think it a distraction, I suggest you don’t raise it'

I explained why I mentioned the holocaust in my previous post. Andrew Bolt raised the holocaust that day on his blog so I think it was legitimate reference to make. If you have a problem with it I suggest you email Andrew Bolt and ask him not to misuse it.

But I see your point. You only want the issue raised on your terms. You are not happy if other people raise the holocaust at inconvenient times. It debases the currency and subverts your control over the debate. How can you use it for a distraction if people call you on it?

That's why we get little dummy spits like:

'Your vicious generalisations about “Jews and Israelis” reveal the racism underscoring your contributions here'

Whenever someone calls me racist I rest at ease. I know they are phoney and have nothing to worry about.

Yes Dane,

You rest easy knowing that your eager support for the 'one Israel' policy, that you readily acknowledge would lead to the ethnic cleansing of jews, couldn't possibly make you a racist. And after all, its not really possible to be racist against white people anymore, is it?

Is Israel an apartheid state? Of course it is. It is a home for the Jews, and all non-Jews are inferior.

http://icahdusa.org/2010/03/is-israel-an-apartheid-state/

Do the local indigenous Palestinians suffer daily humiliation at the hands of Settlers and occupiers of their land? Of course they do. The evidence is clear for all to see.

Should a Local Council exercise boycotts etc? Of course it should and so should every individual of conscience who opposes social injustice. I personally do not buy Kleenex tissues, Uncle Toby, L'Oreal, Nestle, Body Shop, Kit Kat, or Revlon products and I would not want my Local Council to buy a Caterpiller machine.

Why don't we criticise Libya, Sierra Leone, North Korea, Southern Sudan, Iran, Cuba, Somalia and Russia with human rights records that are worse than Israel’s? Why does Israel want to compare itself with these countries?

The BDS movement as it grows will be an important contributor in bringing Israel into the modern world and changing attitudes that will be important in bringing peace and security to Israel/Palestine.

Stan1,

You betray your myopia when you clearly enunciate the problem as a social justice issue, and then neglect to address why Israel is the sole target, when you readily acknowledge there are far greater abusers of human rights. Surely its a reasonable assessment for others to assume that you are only interested in human rights if there being abused by Israeli's.

Your awkward sidestep around this issue “Why does Israel want to compare itself with these countries” is the key. It’s simply not a real answer, its a red herring. Firstly, you’ve just agreed that Israel’s record is better than all the countries you’ve listed. I could add at least another dozen.

So why are you supporting a boycott against a country that you’re happy to admit is not even close to being the worlds worst? Especially so, when there is no BDS against any of the countries you have identified.

Why should we support such a narrow campaign that clearly doesn’t stack up based upon any critical analysis which defines social justice as the main motivator?

The one Israel policy, that the BDS proponents favour, would lead to the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Israel. Even Bob Brown rejects such an extremist position. And if Bob Brown thinks its extreme, that does leave the BDS a long way out there on the fringes.

PaulL

Our lives are full of choices every day. Should we choose to make a donation to the Animal Welfare League or the Children's Oncology Unit?
What would be the basis for that decision?

I can choose to boycott Israeli goods if I consider that this action will contribute to the improvement of conditions in Israel/Palestine even though Israel does not have the distinction of being the world's worst offender - just a very brutal one.

A one-Israel policy, a country in which Jews and Arabs coexist, does not mean that the ethnic cleansing practiced by Israel will be replaced by ethnic cleansing by Palestinians. The world is watching. With modern communications technology it is no longer possible for slick lobbying, PR and hasbara to hide brutality in Israel now or in the future.

PaulL,

I support a one Israel policy but I didn't know the organisers of the BDS movement do. Is that right? It would be great if they did.

If you want to read about ethnic cleansing you should go back and read through some of David Singer's posts here on OLO. He not only wants to cleanse Greater Isreal of all Palestinians but denies they even exist. Do you understand what he's suggesting? Not just that he wants to wipe them off the map but to deny that they ever existed at all. He is a truely frightening character.

But as far as I'm aware the BDS movement does not have nuclear weapons. Israel does.

It makes your statement, 'The one Israel policy, that the BDS proponents favour, would lead to the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Israel' sound shrill, hyperbolic and empty.

Stan,

If the goal is to reduce the total of human suffering, then a BDS against Israel is not cost effective by ANY measure. I think the public has every reason to feel that a BDS against Israel is motivated by political ideology, not social justice.

Your excuse for this focus on Israel is CHOICE. You choose to attack Israel not because it is the worst, but because you CHOOSE to make your contribution there. And why would that be? We’ve already established that its not because you want to ameliorate the most human suffering you can.

Your analogy with the choice between animal welfare, and childrens health, is a hollow one. You initially claimed that the attacks on Israel were founded upon the issue of social justice. A more realistic’ analogy would be a choice between supporting ‘feed the children’, and supporting ‘build a new gymnasium’ for the kids at your local school. Both could be considered worthy goals, but in my mind, you cannot be serious about alleviating hardship if you do not think about how much good can be achieved with a given set of resources.

you say " A one-Israel policy, a country in which Jews and Arabs coexist, does not mean that the ethnic cleansing practiced by Israel will be replaced by ethnic cleansing by Palestinians. The world is watching."

This is arrant nonsense. One need only look to Zimbabwe, where white farmers have been systematically attacked and forced out. Mugabe has very succesfully spread out this cleansing so that opposition never reached a critical mass. Worse, the world watched whilst the Hutus massacred the Tutsis in Rwanda. You just have to look at the things that HAMAS officials have to say on the matter to get an inkling of what may happen.

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

(Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010)

cont'

cont'

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time .. but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... ALLAH, ANNIHILATE THEM COMPLETELY AND DO NOT LEAVE ANYONE OF THEM." http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm

"... We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. WE WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE VERY LAST USURPER IS DRIVEN OUT OF OUR LAND." http://www.adl.org/MAIN_ISRAEL/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm

(my capitals)

There'sno Islamic country today where non-muslims enjoy the full protection that muslims enjoy. And if Islamic states which haven't experienced a 50 year war can’t manage equal protection under the law, it's simply naive, or worse, to pretend that a pluralist, liberal society can be formed from the ashes.

A two state solution is the only one which stands a chance. Israel will never accept that it should be subsumed within the old mandate of Palestine. Firstly, there is no basis in law, to do so. Secondly, Israel will never agree. Thirdly, the results of such a change would undoubtedly cause more suffering, which puts the lie to the claim that the BDS is motivated by human suffering.

Frankly, the arguments used by BDS proponents that Israel should be annexed to a new Palestine, could be used to suggest that Australia should be annexed to Indonesia. Or, for that matter, for the end of all nation states.

Dane,

Actually mate, you happily volunteered the opinion that a one Israel policy would lead to significant forced jewish migration. Or do you not remember what you just said?

You would be happy to know that HAMAS fully agrees with you.

PaulL,

Your argument follows the well rehearsed Israel First tactic of disemble, obfuscate and when all else fails start name calling. Your reply to Stan falls neatly into the first two categories. But I can feel some name calling coming on.

As for your disembling: You argue that Israel is a democracy and that it is racist to equate it with the actions of states like Syria and Lybia. You say how come only Israel is held up to such 'high' moral standards and we don't focus on other states that abuse human rights. Yet Lybia and Syria are recognised around the world aqs violating human rights and are treated as such. They have US and UN sanctions imposed on them at present. They don't claim to be democracies.

Israel does. And the billions in aid Israel receives each year hardly counts as sanctions. That's why Israel is signalled out for special treatment. If Israel is happy to be treated asa terrorist state and have sanctions imposted then we would not be complaining about double standards.

Let me sum up. You complain about double standards when Israel is compared to states which violate human rights. Yet we all know the only reason Israel doesn't suffer the same fate is because of the US veto. This pretense allows you to convince yourself that you are a liberal western democracy and are being treated unfairly. Hence, the 'moral equalivence' stuff.

See what I mean about obfuscation? People turn off. They can't be bothered with all the duplicity. It's good stuff. But Israel has the best PR firms money can buy so we expect that.

You can have your rant about Hamas but we know Jews have said similar things. I think even Netanyahu has talked about 'forcible transfers' before. It's frightening stuff. The Arabs are corrupt but when you look at the corruption inviestigations of former Israeli PMs and Presidents (one of whom is in jail isn't he?), you realise the Israeli's are no better.

dane

I didn’t immediately recognise that paulL was dissembling and obfuscating. I thought it was just confused and muddled thinking. But you are right. I seem to remember having been confronted with it before in these arguments. I heard recently that Israel has just budgeted $6 m US in training sympathisers how to how to argue the Zionist cause and obfuscate in the media. I can’t give a source for this but if true I wonder if there is a handbook.

paulL

I didn’t know that the one-Israel policy was what the BDS proponents favour. Could you give me a source? Or where you just wanting to introduce the argument and obfuscate? Did you come across the quote by Ariel Sharon (1973)
“We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlement in between the Palestinians, and then another Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.”
That strategy has been achieved which makes a two state solution very unlikely.

Dane,

You claim I dissemble, and obfuscate? Yet you haven’t managed to address any of my points. You keep changing the subject when it gets difficult. Its very easy to throw accusations, but it seems you are entirely incapable of demonstrating any of these supposed offences. Its a typical defence for someone who is out of their depth.

You talk about human rights, but you fail to address your attention to countries where conditions are worst. You talk about nuclear weapons, but global disarmament is not a goal of a BDS or the one Israel policy. You talk about foreign support and funding, but fail to acknowledge the support and funding that the Palestinians receive, including the unwavering support of the Islamic conference, which are THE dominant voting bloc in the UN general assembly.

You say ... “: You argue that Israel is a democracy and that it is racist to equate it with the actions of states like Syria and Lybia”

What you’ve just claimed is demonstrably false. In fact it is laughable to pretend that I’m the one dissembling when you can’t even accurately summarise what I’ve said? What I actually suggested was that it was racist to support a policy that you yourself happily informed us would lead to mass forced migration of Jews.

All this suggests that you have a problem with Israel specifically. HOW do you reconcile 1) your view that the results of a ‘one-Israel’ policy would lead to ethnic cleansing of Jews with 2) your alleged non-racism?

You say ....“This pretence allows you to convince yourself that you are a liberal western democracy and are being treated unfairly” ...

I’ll say it again because you’re clearly having difficulty with this. I’m not a Jew, I’m not an Israeli, I’m not born to one or married to one, either. So it’s not ‘me’ who thinks I’m being treated unfairly.

You say ...“ You can have your rant about Hamas but we know Jews have said similar things" ...

Yes, we know because you tell us so, Right?

cont'

PaulL,

I'll say it again. I haven't been addressing your points because they are designed to muddy the waters.

Take for example your paranoia about one Israel. You claim it would be ethnic cleansing of Jews if they decided to leave. Yet Jews (Irgun) have been ethnically cleansing Israel since before it was declared Israel. There is no state in the world today more actively pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing than Israel. Yet you claim I'm not addressing your points. Are you serious?

I think a one Israel policy would lead to peace and stability in the region. The Arabs will end up forming a majority but i suspect Jews would continue to hold considerable financial and political power.

Israel at peace with its neighbours would become an economic powerhouse and a regional leader.

I'm always suspicious of Jews and their supporters' fearmongering about one Israel. Why do Jews want to keep Israel ethnically pure? Most Jews in Australia are big supporters of immigration and multiculturalism. Why is ok for Australia but not ok for Israel?

And then you have the audacity to insinuate I'm racist ('alleged non-racist'). I thought I could feel some name calling coming on. But then, I guess you don't have to be Nostradamus to predict that Israel supporters will start name calling.

Let me be clear. Even though Israel pursues a national policy of ethnic cleansing, I would never support Jews being forced to leave Israel.

cont,

Hamas. A group that weans its children on martyrdom. A group which doesn’t need wallpaper because of the volume of printed material deifying suicide bombers it produces. These people, whose goals you champion, have just recently launched an anti-tank missile at a school bus. Not by accident, while they were fighting Israeli soldiers, but so they could kill as many jewish children as possible. These are the people you would like to transfer power to, and, it is claimed, would be controlled under such an eventuality, through international monitoring. SERIOUSLY?

You allege "Nethanyahu’s talk of forcible transfers" is frightening stuff, yet you seem to embrace the possibility of widespread forced Israeli evictions without any trepidation at all.

You claim that Israel subverts the will of the UN. But the UN has no moral high ground on this issue. This is amply demonstrated by the saga of the UNCHR, which was so signifcantly and obviously biased that it had to be scrapped. “In the words of then UN Secretary General Kofi Annan “.. the selectivity and politicizing of its [UNCHR] activities [were] in danger of bringing the entire UN system into disrepute”. http://www.iheu.org/node/2546

The Israelis tried a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Not only did this NOT encourage the Palestinians to move towards peace, it did not make Israel more secure either. In fact, it actually resulted in setbacks to both ambitions. It should be clear to everyone that until the violence stops, there is no solution to the problem. Those who think the answer is to elevate the Palestinians, and punish the Israelis, simply give more power to the hardliners on both sides. The real answer is to get the violence to stop, so moderate voices on both sides have room to be heard. The political support to give up the occupied territories does exist in the Israeli public. But whilst ever they are being attacked, sometimes in the most cowardly of ways, their voices will be drowned out..

tbc

Dane

... you say “I haven't been addressing your points because they are designed to muddy the waters.”..

YOU ARE SURELY KIDDING ME. You believe you can take part in a debate and not discuss the issues you yourself have brought up. Politicians make a living avoiding the issues. OLO is a site for real discussion; we have enough evasion in the political sphere. If you will kindly note, I have taken significant trouble to respond to almost everything you have said. I have quoted you verbatim regularly, and I have found and presented evidence directly supporting my arguments.

You, however, seem content to simply declare that my points are not the point. And instead focus on introducing new issues every post rather than supporting any of your prevous claims, or adressing mine regarding same. This kind of avoidance is typical of the proponents of a BDS because a BDS itself doesn’t bear any scrutiny.

You yourself have told us that you expect a one Israel policy (note to stan1 - this is a policy Dane supports - which is why we're discussing it) to lead to significant migration of Jews. It should be instructive to all that there is damn near universal agreement on this fact, including in Hamas and their brothers in terror.

You go out of your way to take offence instead of pointing out why I'm wrong, which is another tactic designed to avoid the issues. The fact is you are incapable of defending your position, you know it, and all along you have sought to ignore that fact in favour of standing on your preferred ground of attacking Israel. You seem to think it should only go one way. That you should be able to promote a public policy attacking Israel and its legitimacy, but you shouldn’t be forced to defend it. I struggle to see how you can maintain such a clearly hypocritical stance with a straight face.

So,

Please do tell us, what are the allowed arguments AGAINST a BDS? Which arguments AGAINST the one Israel policy you will respond to

PaulL,

We're not really getting anywhere here.

A BDS is already in place against many of Israel's enemies. It just goes by the name UN sanctions. Israel would also have UN sanctions imposed if it were up to 191 out of the 192 countries in the UN. It is only the US which is preventing that. The BDS movement just receognises the fact that Israel is politically protected and tries to impose a 'private' one instead. It is not perfect; UN sanctions would be better, but as that is politically impossible it will have to do. I can't believe I even explaining why the BDs is legitimate.

Do you support sanctions against Iran? Are they legitimate?

Just to set the record straight. I do not support the expulsion of Jews under one Isreal. In fact it would be a disaster. I support a 'real' democracy in Israel. I don't think Palestine is viable as a state and Israel would not tolerate it being part of Jordan (even if Jordan wanted it). It needs to become part of Isael.

If there is a boycott, I trust it will be consequent in every aspect: viz., that boycotters will not undergo any MRI scans or CT scans in the future. These Israeli initiatives must be avoided at all costs! (Incidentally, I know all about Apartheid - I was banned by that regime)

Dane,

When you expect to only discuss issues your comfortable with, how exactly would you expect to make any progress

I’m aware that you 'can’t believe you have to explain why a BDS is legitimate', but there is your problem right there. If you want to convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with you, you have to make the case. The only people who’ll accept that you don’t have to explain the legitimacy of a BDS are the people who are already convinced. And the general public is very far from convinced.

You say “.... Israel would also have UN sanctions imposed if it were up to 191 out of the 192 countries in the UN”

Now that is flat out, not true.

In terms of sanctions, it is simply not true to claim that 191 out of 192 nations would vote for them. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call it a lie, but it is certainly NOT true.

You should know that the US only has a veto in the security council. The Security Council only has 15 members, with the 5 permanent members EACH having a veto. The US can't veto general assembly resolutions.

Just for the record,

1) I don’t accept that Israel has the right to keep the territories it took in 1967.

2) A two state solution is absolutely practicable if Israel withdraws behind these borders.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters.

The fact that Israel's opponents in the 'one Israel' policy won't support the most realistic chance for peace of peace and prosperity for all parties, should tell you something. And that something is - that these people are almost entirely ideologically opposed to the US and its allies. How else could you reconcile them being prepared to cede power to an organisation which on EVERY humanitarian measure is significantly worse than Israel. I of course refer to HAMAS.

MissEagle,

I suggest that you read the observation made by exiled Iraqi writer and intellectual Najem Wali who visited Israel in 2007, meeting the "Arabs of '48" (Kölner Stadt Anzeiger, May 13, 2008)

"... "Arabs of '48" ... these Palestinians basically enjoy the same rights as all other citizens. That they are allowed to express their views and live their traditions without fear of imprisonment. ... are allowed to vote for their representatives and found their own political parties."

Wali continued ...

" ... when comparing these people to Palestinians who live in his country – he might suddenly see the injustice, the betrayal, to which the Arabs in his homeland have had a lifetime's exposure in the name of "occupied Palestine."

and ...

"Israel has not overturned democracy even under the pressure of war. But the citizens in Arab countries are worth nothing to their leaders.”

In Israel, Arabs serve in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, in diplomatic postions, are represented within the top military ranks, in academia, indeed all walks of life. 20% of university students are Arab, which well represents the proportion of Arabs in Israeli society.

Wali was challenged to visit Israel to see for himself after Egyptian literary Nobel Prize laureate, Naguib Mahfouz, laid out in 1978 in a letter to his Israeli colleague Sasson Somekh:

"I dream of the day when, thanks to the collaboration among us, this region will become a home overflowing with the light of learning and science, and blessed by the highest principles of heaven."

Inspite of those who would be delighted to identify apartheid in Israel, none exists.

Black student leaders slam 'apartheid' characterization
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=215811

Martin Luther King so supported Israel, that he remarked that those who are anti-Israel were anti-Semites.

cont ...

As for religious discrimination against one’s own, I would suggest you look no further than some of the Christian denominations in your own back yard. An educated person is aware that discrimination occurs in all religions. Islam has taken discrimination within its ranks to a whole new level.

Like PaulL, I firmly believe that Israel should return territories taken in 1967 ... Albeit under international law and Resolution 242, until the Palestinians determine a state, Israel's presence there is entirely legal.

Danielle

So what are you saying? The article under discussion is about Boycotts Divestments and Sanctions (BDS) applied to Israel because of its apartheid policies.

Does Israel practice apartheid?

Yes it does. It is perverse to state otherwise. Please read

http://icahdusa.org/2010/03/is-israel-an-apartheid-state/

Do you deny that there is "a system of control in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including Jewish-only settlements, separate roads, military checkpoints, discriminatory marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheap labour, Palestinian West Bank enclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law.[4] Some commentators extend the analogy, or accusation, to include Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class." Wikipedia.

Rev. Father Smith and Stan1,

Before inciting a witch-hunt, look at the facts and see the damage a BDS would do to the Palestinian people.

Thousands of Palestinians enter daily to work in Israel. Those who do receive equitable wages, social (including medical) benefits, enjoyed by Israelis. What you propose would see them losing their income and benefits ... their jobs.

Then there are the Israeli and Palestinian businesses mutually dependent upon each other.

As to Palestinian opinion, read the following:

Jerusalem Palestinians Would Prefer to Remain in Israel
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/jerusalem-palestinians_n_809374.html

Pechter Polls
http://www.pechterpolls.com/

Thousands of Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html

"Intensive talks over division of Jerusalem has prompted its Palestinian residents to make a move once considered the ultimate treason ...

... As accepting Israeli citizenship was viewed by many within the community as tantamount to treason, most Palestinians opted to remain permanent residents and enjoy the benefits of living under Israeli sovereignty – full welfare rights, municipal voting rights and unrestricted movement - without putting their loyalty to the Palestinian Authority into question. The average Palestinian family in East Jerusalem currently receives a $770 monthly stipend from Israel."

Quite nice really ...

Palestinians have a better idea of their situation than those pontificating and making decisions for them thousands of miles away.

More to the point, would be a concerted effort to bring about Palestinian recognition of the State of Israel, and an agreement to a state of their own. Until this occurs, no border can be decided upon.

The result could well see settlers being forceably removed by Israel, or finding themselves within a Palestinian state. Israel has stated that there would be a land-for-land exchange.

How long is the world to wait for the Palestinians to make a decision as to their statehood? We have already passed the 60 year mark; another 60 years ... a 100 years?

Perhaps Palestinians, overall, see the building of settlements of less concern than the Israeli benefits that accrue to them.

Stan1,

You would do well to view Wikipedia with some reserve. Having once questioned what I read on this site, I was informed that as Wikipedia is an open source, it is open to abuse. Anyone can contribute to it, change/invent facts. Wikipedia do not guarantee that facts are accurate.

Any information obtained from Wikipedia needs to be confirmed from a number of sources.

Stan,

South Africa, a single state and always recognised as such, had LAWS which specifically and deliberately targeted its non-white citizens. The regime divided people strictly along racial lines and amended its constitution to reflect its fundamental belief in the racial superiority of white people. It created fictional Bantustans to which it shipped blacks, allowing the regime to strip its blacks of their citizenship.

As we have already heard from Danielle, the Israeli constitution guarantees equal rights under the law to all Israeli citizens and Israeli Arabs have fredoms and legal protections that black South Africans probably still don’t have.

Those parts of the west bank under Israel control are NOT Israeli territory. But there has been no agreement, as yet, on the makeup of a future Palestinian state, and therefore, who’s territory it is. Israel occupies some of the west bank to secure its own borders. The land it occupies could be considered a failed state, but even that would be wrong because Palestine has never been a state. The Palestinians in the west bank are not Israeli citizens, and are thus not entitled to expect the rights and protections of Israeli citizenship. The Palestinians are effectively refugees, hostage to their own corrupt leadership, and that of their Arab neighbours, who have cruelly used the Palestinian people for their own ends.

No-one in Israel seriously expects that the areas of the west bank it occupies will remain Israeli once peace is negotiated. There are some settlements close to the border which some in Israel are determined to hold on to, but the vast majority of the land is FULLY expected to return to the Palestinians. The last serious offer had approximately 97% of the west bank reverting to a Palestinian State and all of the Gaza strip, plus some of east Jerusalem.

Israel's wall is not about race, Arab Israelis are inside the wall. Israel’s wall, and its policies more broadly, are about security, not skin colour, and it’s absurd to even pretend otherwise.

Stan1,

Those who throw “apartheid” around so glibbly need to understand what it means. Apartheid is forensically determined and enforced. In Africa, apartheid was a separation of space - physical, social, educational, political, mental, scientific, economic, philosophical, anthropological etc. etc. between black and white.

Blacks could not walk on the same side of the streets as whites in major cities, nor attend schools with whites, not bathe on the same beaches, nor hold down comparable jobs with whites, not access toilets used by whites, nor hold positions in parliament ... nor attend university, on transport ... the list goes on and on ... in every area of life. For a black and a white to marry was a criminal activity.

This is not the situation in Israel.

Billions of dollars have been poured into the Palestinian black hole. What have they to show for it?

They have universities, other tertiary bodies, and hospitals (albeit Palestinians prefer to eschew the latter for Israeli facilities), yet the Palestinian territory still emerges as a god-forsaken wasteland. Why?

Indeed, Palestinians would not be interested in Israel if it were a similar wasteland.

Transjordan’s King Abdullah's response to the Peel Commission/Simpson Commission report of seventy five years ago:

“.. the Arabs (aka Palestinians) are as prodigal ... as they are in useless wailing and weeping”

(King Abdullah, My Memoirs Completed (London, Longman Group Ltd., 1978)

Nothing seems to have changed.

Instead of OLO contributors offering the Palestinians cups of tea, Bex, and suggestions of long lie downs, they should be strongly encouraging them to stand on their own feet.

Isn’t it about time they stood straight, shook off their cloak of victimhood, and accepted accountability. How long must the world wait for Palestinians to recognise the right of Israel to exist (is it so hard), and decide on a Palestinian state - and borders. Sincerity would see the Israeli military presence withdraw.

If they had accepted this sixty years ago, the Palestinian state, alongside Israel, would be the gem of Arab states in the Middle East.

cont ...

Stan1,

You damn the settlers on Palestinian territory, but with breathtaking lack of logic, state you believe in a one-state solution.

A one state solution? Under the current Palestinian ennui, how long do you think it would be before Israel was subsumed into a common wasteland; or do you hope that Israel’s progress and achievements would be overtaken by Palestinians.

An aside, Palestinians have warned that they would not permit Jews to live in their “state.” Again ... do you really see a stampede of Israeli Arabs exiting Israel into a Palestinian state.

Resolution 242 recognised Israel’s security needs and imbedded within it is the right of Israel's military to hold positions to ensure this, and ... considering the constant siege of Israel - the Six Day War of 1967, the War of Attrition between 1968 and 70, the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Lebanese wars of 1982 and 2006 ... and ongoing skirmishes ...

Under the circumstances, Israel’s current military presence on the West Bank, upheld by Resolution 242, is sound ... and legal. The Green Line is not a border, but an armistice line.

As any country, Israel's prime responsibility is to secure the safety of its people - including Arab and other minorities.

Israel would much prefer not have the burdensome expense of keeping soliders on the West Bank; prefering them safely back in Israel.

Despite Israel’s complete withdrawl for Gaza, Gaza increased its attacks on Israel. Rockets are fired into Israel this day.

Then there is constant threat of terror attacks within Israel.

The ball is in the Palestinian court.

Danielle and PaulL

I am tempted to respond to each of your barrage of assertions. It seems clear however that you actually believe your own propaganda and are not prepared to accept the obvious daily injustices perpetrated by Israelis in the occupied territories. I have other priorities like preparing for the 29th consecutive weekly demonstration outside the Israili cosmetic company, Seacret, stall with an ever growing group of people promoting BDS against Israel and its apartheid policies.

However, allow me two comments before I go.

"Supreme Court backs Jews-only housing in Jaffa" (Haaretz.com Nov 09 2010)

"War crimes: Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels." (GlobalResearch.ca Nov 08 2010.

We have had similar air time. I will not be responding further.

Goodbye.

These may be of interest on the question of apartheid:

Al-Walaja story
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcodiFkotgk
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBeztx5Lcv8
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mramhyCQlI

Stan1,

Although you do not intend to respond further on this site, I took the courtesy of reading the references you provided.

"Supreme Court backs Jews-only housing in Jaffa" (Haaretz.com Nov 09 2010)

The “Jews-only housing” was an apartment block being built for a religious Zionist community, to which local Arabs apparently wanted residential access.

And ... as reported in the same article:

“Attorney Gil Gan-Mor of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel said ‘the decision is disappointing," but he pointed out that the ruling includes statements that will prevent this kind of discrimination from happening again in the future.’”

As to:

"War crimes: Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels." (GlobalResearch.ca Nov 08 2010)

The article is quite extraordinary. It does not provide evidence as to any policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels; nor any evidence indeed that this occurred.

On accessing the link provided, I found that the document to which the writer refers is related to the capacity of trucks and tankers supplying Gaza; a obvious aim was to ensure supplies didn't run out.

Additionally, there was no difference made per capita between the needs of children and of adults, thereby ensuring ample food for children.

Extracts from:

“Procedure for monitoring and assessing inventories inventories in the Gaza Strip

The Method: As a rule, the level of daily consumption of each of the basic products was calculated by data from the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics according to the level of per capita consumption of each product multiplied by the population of the Gaza Strip. (pp.4-5)”

Appendix E. Shows the approved quota for diesel for the power plant is greater than daily consumption; whilst gas has unlimited quota. (p.11)

“The mission: Providing permission to transfer Goods into Gaza to meet the basic humanitarian needs of the Palestinian population in accordance with directives and changeing guidelines. (p.15)

cont ...

Identifying the Needs: Needs and demands can be raised by various sources: including The Gaza economic branch, the Gaza international organization’s department, head of civilian division branches, PA bodies, various government ministries, international parties, media, reports and publications, inquiries by Israeli parties, petitions to the judicial system. (pp.15-16)

Deciding on a Policy: a) The necessity of the product for maintaining humanitarian needs, including consequences for public health ... (p.16)”

The only caveat appears to be on those products which Hamas could use, such as
calcium hydroxide. (see p. 20)

This is indeed a strange site. This article appears alongside conspiracy theories about 9/11; articles affirming the benign intentions for Iran’s nuclear program ... and Australia also gets a serve.

I have not looked at the youtubes you provided. I suspect these are at the same level of accuracy you subscribed to the afore articles. I have not the time.