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The Forum > Article Comments > Stop bombing Libya > Comments

Stop bombing Libya : Comments

By Marjorie Cohn, published 24/3/2011

The UN has not authorised regime change in Libya, and the international forces must back off.

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I look forward to the author's next book, "Obama, Warrior" .. or "Obama, Golf, War or Diplomacy?", Now maybe Obama understands why previous US governments behaved the way they did, there is only one way to deal with some folks.

It was all so easy throwing barbs form the sidelines, but now he's in the fray, Obama does exactly the same as President GW Bush did.

You do what needs to be done, even if it is not perfect.

the author must be one of the only liberal voices calling for Gaddafi to be left alone. All of Obama's "let's talk to them" type diplomacy has gained nothing.

Lot's of people have wanted to kick Gaddafi for years and regardless of human rights issues, humanitarian issues, this man has humiliated and been a complete pain in the butt to the west, so please excuse a little human nature in the kicking of his butt.

Some people think this has not gone far enough, if the US wanted him dead, he would be.

The UN once again, cannot satisfy everyone and is a tool for those who can manipulate it best .. sometimes good, sometimes not so good.
Posted by rpg, Thursday, 24 March 2011 6:44:42 AM
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...Marjorie Cohn’s comments are correct, but unfortunately are tempered with the equation of economic survival, which is; “the objective will be inverted over the subjective to equal the necessity of reality”...oil.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 24 March 2011 7:58:11 AM
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Hasn't the US already caused themselves enough heartache trying to achieve regiem change in other countries regardless of how valid the cause is?

Yet another campaign where the US will be responsible for dead civilians in an arab nation with the risk of the usual flow on's. Do the extremists really need more recruit's?

The USA has enough on it's plate, it's time for a different approach.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 24 March 2011 8:29:48 AM
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It's easy to dismiss articles like this as traditional bleeding-heart liberal whimper, but there is a genuine problem lurking under the surface of this plea to stop the bombing.

The present actions are being conducted under the United Nations R2P doctrine. R2P has at its heart the lessons of Rwanda, where, as the author points out, "myriad lives" could have been saved by more decisive action.

Unfortunately, this "cure" leaves loopholes the size of Texas for governments to walk through.

Noam Chomsky pointed this out in his address to the UN in 2009 which - despite the reputation of its author - deserves re-visiting. He draws attention to the findings of the International Court of Justice in the Corfu Channel Case, back in 1946.

http://www.iilj.org/courses/documents/CorfuChannel.UnitedKingdomv.Albania.pdf

"The Court can only regard the alleged right of intervention as the manifestation of a policy of force, such as has, in the past, given rise to most serious abuses and such as cannot, whatever be the present defects in international organization, find a place in international law. Intervention is perhaps still less admissible in the particular form it would take here; for, from the nature of things, it would be reserved for the most powerful States, and might easily lead to perverting the administration of international justice itself."

The problem that this judgment illuminates is still with us today, and no amount of macho chest-beating that "evil must be punished" will make it go away. Thucydides said it best, around 415 BC

"...we shall not trouble you with specious pretences... and make a long speech which would not be believed... since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0200:book=5:chapter=89:section=1

A balance between unwarranted aggression and humanitarian intervention has yet to be reached, and we would do well to keep reminding ourselves of this. Particularly as it looks likely that there will be a number of similar cases to evaluate in the months ahead.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 March 2011 8:44:16 AM
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Obama lied, kids died! Where are all the street protestors now?
Posted by BPT, Thursday, 24 March 2011 9:13:25 AM
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I'm waiting for the effigies of Gillard and Obama to be burned in the upcoming huge street marches.

War Criminals!

oh the outrage ..

imagine if this was Howard and Bush .. exactly the same situation, but change those 2 people.. ask yourself lefties .. would it be the same, or would you be sneering as you read this?

it's OK to hate .. let it all gooooooooo.
Posted by Amicus, Thursday, 24 March 2011 10:52:51 AM
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I feel the authors outrage. I really do. All of those laws and stuff re why Obama shouldn't do this and that. But Obama has the Bomb. The power, know what I mean? And the yanks have all of these groovy weapons and dang nang it, no one likes Gaddafi. Not even the Arabs like him. So it's bombs away ...

I wished we lived in a small L liberal world where the representatives from PETA and the RSPCA could vote on the Security Council - but it ain't gunna happen.
Posted by Cheryl, Thursday, 24 March 2011 12:08:56 PM
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I also feel the author's outrage and agree with Cheryl that we should completely trivialize the lot of the people who dared revolt against their wonderful leader.

It is just a crime!

How dare other nations question what Gaddafi is doing, and I only now feel that way since the US is involved .. who do they think they are .. they have atomic weapons and have only ever used them twice, 75 years ago to end a horrendous war and avoid more death .. but hey, who cares eh, they're Americans and hating them is way more important than anything else.

last week I wanted the killing to stop but now the US are involved ... well .. I am outraged!

I'd go further than others and insist the security council is filled with representatives from South Capetown Council, the Glasgow Table Tennis Club, a Football Cheerleader from Minnesota, of course you couldn't be complete without at least one person from that wonderfully objective ABC they have in Australia .. talk about deep!

We should have a shop steward from a coal mine in China, at least one or two women from cultures where they have had zero contact with the world outside their family in their whole lives, and no education at all. To round off, a synchronized swimmer from Canada and a Tibetan butcher.

It would be so, so cultural!

It's the look of it that's important isn't it, other people can get things done, who cares eh.

Oh, they could all wear a uniform, or the same colour, or a sash to signify world empathy or have an ethics hat or something with oh .. stripes?

As long as the hate of Americans is maintained .. what a disappointment that Obama bloke is, there he was kissing **s all over, and now he's acting as if he controls the most powerful country int he world and has moral values .. such a let down from all that hopey changey stuff (ttp)
Posted by Amicus, Thursday, 24 March 2011 1:31:48 PM
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Marjorie Cohn,

The other day Mr. Malcolm Fraser, ex politician, told us that he doesn’t like cluster bombs.

Nobody is using cluster bombs in Libya, so, the slaughter of humans by the politicians involved in that country’s bombings must be OK.

I deal in certainties and I know that it is only when people put all politicians out of business that the carnage of massive wars can end.

Modes of government other than the ones which employs politicians are many.

The best I know is True democracy.

A true democracy is where the duty of each citizen cannot be delegated to any other and where the corresponding right is the full knowledge of the way in which the wealth common to all citizens is administered.

It is the aim of all parasites to confuse this truth. Parasites lodge in every nook and cranny of “The State” with its Schools and universities, its Army and weaponry, its gun-equipped bullying Police, its pompous judiciary implementing Laws designed to heighten and protect inequity, its pervasive nets of bureaucrats its Hospitals and its network of do-gooders regimented into a network of self serving Charities.
Posted by skeptic, Thursday, 24 March 2011 2:36:21 PM
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Sarcasm is always a fairly easy tool to wield in these situations. The contributions that concentrate on poking fun at left-wing "softies" must be highly amusing to the writers, but they also manage to trivialize the issue.

So, people, instead of simply taking shots, how about some conviction in your opinions.

Should foreign agencies have free licence under the "I'm bigger than you" rule to leap in and attack any government/dictator/leader whom they feel is being nasty to their people?

Or should they simply ignore the bleeding bodies in the streets, shrug their shoulders and say "let 'em get on with it, fight it out amongst themselves, it's nothing to do with us"?

It would be good if you also had the courtesy to assess what might be the outcome of your proposal.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 March 2011 2:55:27 PM
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well you're damned if you do and damned if you don't eh pericles?

The lefties squeal, please won't someone stop the killing, and when someone tries, they squeal, hey that big guy is doing too much killing and it's not exactly where we want it and what a surprise the guys capable of doing it are the same guys we love to hate .. so let's have it both ways.

Sound familiar?

Are these people being killed in their revolution the same ones who cheered and welcomed home a mass murdered who was responsible for the Lockerbie bombing ..

How much should we care pericles about them, they did nothing then for us .. did they?

The rebels said they didn't want any external help, (who ignored the bleeding bodies first eh?) and let their own people die in droves trying to advance their case, right up to the point they are about to be wiped off the earth.

Then they want everyone to come help .. it helps if the guy whose head they want kicked is generally hated anyway of course.

Why our foreign minister cared a rats I can only conclude is personal ego and profit to his career, he's not a carer is he .. unless a camera is handy.

The Security Council is a joke, and making fun of it is sport. It is ineffective and only operates as a career step for diplomats. They only perform under extreme duress and their hands being forced, if at all.

You could fill it with clowns and no one would notice, it is a puppet organization.

So stop scolding people who disagree and go do something about it yourself, or is this your way of contributing .. taking offence?

My opinion is supported by my convictions .. yours appears to be supported by the old defence "I am offended" for the look of it of course, still no substance.
Posted by Amicus, Thursday, 24 March 2011 3:07:15 PM
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Ummmm... so which side are you on, Amicus?

>>How much should we care pericles about them, they did nothing then for us .. did they?<<

I guess that's your way of saying "let 'em burn".

So you would have felt the same way about Iraq, I assume. Let Saddam sort out his own mess - yes? Let 'em burn. We were wrong to invade, is that your considered view?

And you will presumably feel the same way in coming weeks about the Yemeni people. And the Syrians - ah yes, especially those Syrians. Let 'em burn, eh? What have they ever done for us, eh?

I envy you your certainty.

The point of my posting is not to say hey, I've got a solution. Because I believe that the issues are not as easily solved as they obviously appear to you after a couple of schooners with your mates down the RSL.

I am suggesting that we have a long way to go before we can operate under a framework of internationally accepted rules that tread that line between invasion of another country's sovereignty and providing humanitarian assistance.

In the meantime, it isn't going to matter whether a government errs on the side of bully-boy aggression or wimpish disengagement. They are bound to get it wrong.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 March 2011 3:30:09 PM
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Not in my name Obama. Kids died, Democrats and UN tools lied.
Posted by BPT, Thursday, 24 March 2011 3:50:49 PM
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Hmmm, I think Pericles is right. My contribution was a bit soft.

I am rarely hawkish as the Americans have a nasty knack of getting bogged down in horribly protracted conflicts. But neither do I think the UN should stand back (as they have done before - and almost did this time) and let Gaddafi exterminate the rebels - which he would surely do.

Cultural pessimists say things like 'Oh, we're all doomed, too many people, no food, global warming, end of Europe, end of American military might, age of ennui, here come the decadents,' etc.

We could stand back and watch a blood bath (ala Bosnia) and then be racked with middle class guilt - or we could bomb those people we don't like and draw a 1000 kg cluster bomb in the sand and say step over that and you're dead.

People will say, 'but you don't have the right'. Yes we do. Who says? We do.

Or we could sit around and talk about that nasty bloke Gaddafi and twiddle our thumbs. Nah. Bomb them.
Posted by Cheryl, Thursday, 24 March 2011 4:15:03 PM
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pericles , oh dear someone is disagreeing with you .. a difference of opinion, therefore, they must be .. what, drunk?

"The point of my posting is not to say hey, I've got a solution. Because I believe that the issues are not as easily solved as they obviously appear to you after a couple of schooners with your mates down the RSL"

such a p*ss weak response .. but not unexpected, since your argument is so weak that you have to resort to personal attacks since you dislike or cannot deal with the person's opinion

get over it sunshine, many people in life, do not think the way you do .. you need to accept that, adapt and move on

bomb them, no leave them to it .. why, yes .. that's indeed what we should do since there is no way to help anyone out here, regardless of what you do, you will be the villain

we need to stop interfering .. leave them to it, as I said, the rebels did not want help

why do they get to say when the world steps in or does not step in .. it's their battle, it's a sovereign country

the left cannot rule the world with their hand wringing, it simply doesn't work

I am highly amused by President Obama's dilemma .. he thought GW Bush's path was wrong and said so, now he's doing the same thing

you need to stop this urge to scold everyone who does not agree .. most of us just find your outrage .. amusing,

suck it up, you're responses to the world's problems are quite amusing .. yes/no/yes/maybe/bomb them/not too hard/back off/scold/not scold .. oh dear now what .. oh, you over there, you're wrong .. quick find a scapegoat .. (no wonder Australia is such a mess ruled by the Indiegreenalps)
Posted by Amicus, Thursday, 24 March 2011 5:05:41 PM
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I take amicus point. I was shocked and a little angered that the Rebels jailed and then escorted out of the country a british delegation who were attempting to give them some assistance. When they thought they were winning they wanted nothing to do with the crusaders.

I'm not sure he can claim with any certainty that the crowds who cheered home the lockerbie bomber, weren't the diehard gaddafi supporters.

In any case, by intervening to protect the lives of civillians, and the rebel forces, the west at least has some chance of shaping events in that country for the better.

Frankly I'm gettingsick of hereing the far left, deny the legitemacy of these actions by invoking Mugabe, or Kim Jong Il. I agree, they are tyrants. But neither of them has been smashing through the countryside with a brigade of tanks and atillery in the recent future, if ever. UN intervention these days requires 1) a immediate crisis, with civillians at risk. 2) It requires broad global support. The African Union would never support the intervention in Zimbabwe. A key difference in this case was the support of the Arab League

Furthermore, intervention was within the capability of the countries involved to achieve without massive cost. Intervention in North Korea is patently not.

I would love the far lefty's here to explain to me just where there is benefit in attacking Libya, a country we have only recently brought in from the cold. Oil was flowing freely and Gaddafi was a responsble citizen.

Now, Oil flow from libya has basically stopped. The price has shot up to 115 dollars a barrel after spending most of last year at an average of $75. And the US buys 66% of its oil overseas, so this absolutely hurts the US economy, which is currently attemting to claw its way back from recession.

Winge if you like about the US failure to act in other circumstances. But that has no bearing on the merits of intervening now in Libya.
Posted by PaulL, Thursday, 24 March 2011 10:15:56 PM
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...The Middle East is a jigsaw of complexity beyond the understanding of most. Unfortunately the Americans are not particularly good at amicable agreements, but must be given credit for their long history of stepping forward to the fray, God bless em!...
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 24 March 2011 10:19:25 PM
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You're a puzzle, Amicus. Quite an enigma.

What has made you so excited all of a sudden?

>>pericles , oh dear someone is disagreeing with you .. a difference of opinion, therefore, they must be .. what, drunk?<<

Where's the difference of opinion?

>>My opinion is supported by my convictions<<

So it would be good if you made those convictions clear, perhaps, instead of simply slagging off at me for some imaginary injury.

You are a) in favour of b) against US military intervention in Libya.

And just to underline that these really are your convictions,

You were a) in favour of b) against US military intervention in Iraq.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 March 2011 10:59:21 PM
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I love this Libyan civil war, it has more ironies than Catch -22. Gilbert and Sullivan could have made an opera out of this one.

The Yanks and the Euros want to help a bunch of people who only six months ago were cheering on Ghaddafi and his Lockerbie bomber mate who murdered Yanks and Euros. These Libyan rebels are no friends of ours. One rebel character even said that he had no problem with “infidel” nations bombing Ghaddafi. For those who do not know what ‘infidel” means, it is the Arab equivalent of “nig-ger”. Hey, up yours too Abdul. I hope Ghaddafi has something unpleasant lined up for you.

Now Marjorie Cohn writes that intervening in Libya is “illegal”. Yup, it sure is. And the last time that the UN claimed the same thing a million Hutus in Rwanda got chopped to pieces with machetes right in front of the UN soldiers sent there to protect them.

“ Sorry old chap, we can’t stop the Tutsis from chopping you and your kids to mincemeat because the law is the law. Our job is to stand here behind the wire of our compounds and watch them do it.” I suppose that such a position is logical.

The USA and the Euros claim that they are getting involved to stop civilian slaughter, but what is going to happen if the rebels start winning and push Ghaddafi back to his strongholds where he has local support? When the rebels start doing to Ghaddafi’s civilian supporters what Ghaddafi is now doing to them, will the Yanks and the Euros start bombing the rebels for “humanitarian reasons?”

Maybe then the “No Blood for Oil” brigade will finally crawl out of their crevices and show the world how morally superior they are.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Arab League, who’s members states creak under the weight of weaponry, and who are more than capable of removing Ghaddafi themselves, do what Arabs always do. They sit back and do nothing while criticizing the people who are doing something
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 25 March 2011 4:02:54 AM
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Gaddaffi is a terrible piece of work, and while the rebels are an unknown quantity, it would be difficult to be worse, at least they are not targeting civilians.

The positive for the British and Americans is at least they get to take a few pot shots at the instigators of the Lockerbie massacre and test fire some of their new toys.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 26 March 2011 12:13:26 PM
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