Otokonoko,
I have actually said to teachers that they can learn something from industry, and the usual response is that the teachers shake their heads.

Many industries are quite different to the education system, where accountability is almost non-existent.

In some areas of the country, tradesmen can be in very short supply, and tradesman can become very arrogant and difficult to deal with.

The supervisor can’t sack the tradesman, because there is no one else to replace him, and the company will also get behind in its work schedule, and then the supervisor is in the stew.

So the supervisor has to think of ways of dealing with the arrogant individual, and also meet the company’s work schedule.

Asking the tradesman a series of questions is the simplest and easiest way of dealing with many people, and even some of the most arrogant individuals will become like butter in your hand.

Compare this with the education system where a teacher can fail or expel a student, or send a student out of a class, and no questions are asked of the teacher.

You may think your school’s strategy works, but the student that has been sent from the class is not learning much.

The school has then failed to teach a student, and that is similar to a company falling behind in its work schedule.

Teachers have a very easy life in being able to fail or expell a student, but the student eventually becomes a problem for someone else.

Teachers do not have "a very easy life in being able to fail or expell [sic] a student". A girl in my Year 12 English class failed last year. The paper trail, moderation and follow-up finished this week. As for expelling, well, in a select few fully independent schools it's easy. In the vast majority of schools - state and Catholic - it's not easy at all. Even when a principal recommends a student for exclusion and backs his/her recommendation up with four or five years of documentary evidence, the exclusion is frequently rejected. Add to that the doctrine of forgiveness that underpins diocesan Catholic schools and, if a students shows some indication of contrition, we just keep taking them back. Really, I have no problem with that. They have to be schooled somewhere.

As for the students sent out of class (on internal suspension) not learning much, well, I'll admit that their lack of face-to-face contact has limitations. Knowing as much as you do about schools, though, I'm sure you'd be well aware that teachers are required to provide a full program of work for the duration that the student is out of class. It's a draining process, as we have to ensure that the work covers the content that would usually be covered in class over that time. It's one set of work for the students in class and another, usually more detailed (to make up for the absence of the teacher), set of work for the student who has been excluded.

Maybe in the schools with which you have been involved this policy is ignored or only partially followed, but in the schools I have worked in it is followed to the letter. It is interesting to note, though, that when students are suspended externally, the work is seldom collected from school and, when it is emailed home, it is only rarely completed. For this reason, I'm a big fan of internal suspension. The deputies ensure that the work is done and, on many occasions, call department heads down to give students a hand when they're stuck.

Otokonoko,
As a freebie, I’ll also give you another set of clues.

Get the student bully alone and tell them a joke, and then wait for them to tell you a joke. After that is out of the way, then you can start to ask the student a series of questions.

Also best to offer to do something for the bully, and then expect the bully to do something for you (without stating it).

If you think teachers have a tough life, then try this.

I was once with a company that divided up their factory into a number of sections, and each section was called the blue section, or the red section or the green section etc.

The supervisors were expected to supervise in one section, and then swap with the supervisor in another section.

At first the supervisor went into an area they didn’t know much about, and the station operators knew more than the supervisor, and would get up to all sorts of tricks with the supervisor.

A supervisor could be driven to distraction unless they could deal with that, and the supervisors couldn’t sack anyone.

Sink or swim for the supervisors, and the best strategy was to play dumb and be asking the station operators a series of questions, and also be doing things for the station operators until finally the station operators in that section of the factory began to do things for the supervisor.

"Six teenagers face serious assault charges after an attack on an intellectually disabled youth.

The 17-year-old victim had just got off a bus at Westall Railway station in Clayton on March 8 when he was allegedly assaulted by the group.

The teenagers, males aged between 13 to 16, were arrested on Friday afternoon.

They face charges including intentionally causing serious injury and recklessly causing serious injury.
All have been bailed to appear at a children's court."

...................................................................

Now here's a mob of little charmers!

I wonder how the victim 'invited' the bullying (Houellebecq) and just what questions would you ask these little thugs (Vanna)?

It seems to me Otokonoko is the one voice of wisdom in this thread. Bad behaviour needs correction. There is little chance of reform if the offender has no reason to want to do so. Unpleasant consequences - real ones - provide incentive, especially if applied early in the offending behaviour, the punishment firm, fair in line with the crime and applied consistently. This, combined with 'education' and example (mentors/role models) to teach and encourage responsible behaviour, works best.

The proof is in the outcomes - Otokonoko claims low levels of bullying behaviour at his/her school and I can believe that is more probable than not given the no nonsense approach taken.

Such a pity this tactic is not employed in every home and every school throughout the nation.

I worked as a CRT and on several short term contracts in schools in Melbourne, rural Victoria and London for many years and have now fled to Asia to teach English. I've been here almost four years and my life is markedly less stressful than before. Shock horror that many of my students actually thank me at the end of each lesson, wave to me in the street and (despite limited English) will try to have a civil conversation with me!

Frankly, not even wild horses could drag me back to working as a teacher in most government schools in Victoria and I certainly wouldn't send my children to them. Since becoming a teacher, my views on discipline, especially corporal punishment, and every child's right to receive an education (i.e. every student's right to disrupt the work of teachers and the learning of other students), have become far more "right wing".

The system simply isn't working. Bullying is rife not only from student to student, but student to teacher and even teacher to teacher. Those teachers who do demand some standards are often left adrift at sea with absolutely zero support (if not outright disdain and mocking) from their colleagues, superiors, parents and the wider community.

Everyone likes to complain about the lack of discipline in schools, yet it's always some other person's kid, not their little darlings. On the rare occasions when their little darlings do get pulled aside and told to pull their heads in, plenty of parents are up at the school complaining.

No more. No thanks.

If teachers (in general) were to have an attitude which includes working towards a better society that they could make a difference. Sadly, the greater majority of teachers are heavily focused on getting more & more benefits. If only some of these benefit seeking efforts were diverted towards discipline then they would get more discipline. It really is a matter of receiving what's sown. I haven't heard of teachers striking to get more discipline into schools but I have heard of many teachers' strikes for more pay.