Are you REALLY connecting bigoted opposition to homosexual marriage with opposition to the bloodthirsty theological tyrannies in the Middle East? Your 'brave' Senators -- who is sending planes off to bomb them, exactly? Who is threatening their friends and families with death? Who is despatching armed troops with tanks and machine guns to take them out?

Reality just called; they said they hadn't heard from you in a long while.

This is almost an unbelievable comparison.

" In short, such a government policy allows doctors and relatives 'to get rid of old people' as Joe de Bruyn said this week. Euthanasia has been exploited wherever it has been introduced in the world and many healthy people have died as a result. Where do you draw the line?"

You lost me at this point and with the same sex marriage argument.

Distorting the humanitarian goals behind Euthanasia as a conspiracy to "kill off old people" and your support of the discrimination and bigotry inherent in the gay marriage debate diminishies and insults those brave souls you wrote about so gallantly earlier in the piece.

The only truth you have exposed is that people have the right to push and promote bigotry and discrimination. It is those brave souls who go against the prevailing custom to fight for human rights who deserve our admiration. Given Euthanasia and same sex marriage are not legalised, it is natural to conclude that those standing up to the PC approach are not the Conservative Right Wing religious factions.

Fighting against discrimination or the right for people to die with dignity and without pain has nothing to do with political correctness.

But there are really none so blind as those who cannot see.

'Labor Senators John Hogg, Don Farrell and Steve Hutchins deserve a gold medal.'Could not agree more. Refreshing to see at least some in the Labour party keeing their word. The PM has broken hers so many times already I doubt whether her own party trusts her. Hopefully ex PM Rudd will resign over current fight with his leader. No doubt she will back down to him in order to cling to power. How deceit is Bob Brown?

I suspect that Mr Marsh may have finally lost the last vestige of a sense of perspective.

To compare the bravery displayed by Adel Idris with the value-free positions taken by a couple of Labour Party chancers is, frankly, obscene.

Then we have his own trumpet blown at us:

"Woe to anyone who stands against this Gaddafi-like delusion. I personally know the cost of disagreeing with the new religion of homosexuality..."

We are supposed to believe that Mr Marsh, far from being the sole architect of his woes, is some kind of martyr for the truth. When in fact he was ousted from a position of community trust by publishing slurs against a section of that community.

What on earth did he expect? Praise?

On this showing, one can only assume that he did.

The remaining comparisons in the article are equally weird. Euthanasia has apparently "been exploited wherever it has been introduced in the world and many healthy people have died as a result" And the evidence for that is... what, exactly?

And in support of his assertion that "If you think that the Family Law Act is bad for children, wait until you see the effect of the legalisation of homosexual marriage", he calls upon the support of that well-known human being, Bill Muehlenberg. The man who argues that legalizing homosexual marriage will lead to “potential for the sexual union of human beings and aliens”.

With all the over-dramatic language, along with all the posturing and flouncing, one has to wonder if perhaps Mr Marsh doth protest, slightly too much.

Warwick Marsh is the bravest man of all, daring to liken a stance on gay marriage the with life-threatening stance of the Libyan rebels.

Warwick with respect, the ALP has seen members leave in droves, due to the interference within the party of the extreme rightwing catholic members.
Your idols tried to take away the human rights and social justice being of the ALP, also the voices of grassroot members.
Unless the ALP goes back to basics of why it came into being, the ALP will disappear like the Democrats!

Unless the ALP goes back to basics of why it came into being, the ALP will disappear like the Democrats!
Kipp,
for crying out loud, don't tell them, just let them continue. it's for the good of the country.

Individual,in response to your posting.
"Great Britain 2 - Germany Nil!!"
Extremists both from the left and right have tried to usurp control, and have always failed in the end.

Mr. Marshs' all too familiar homophobic hatred wrapped up in a feelgood story about his mum. I'm surprised he didnt insert a few pictures of innocent babies being molested by homosexuals to coerce reader sentiment a little more! One would have thought his embarassing sacking from men's health embassador role for homophobic hate might have created a few new synapses.

For the record here is Mr. Marsh's previous long statement about homosexuals. You be the judge of his heart:

Click the link and go read p. 16-21 http://www.gendermatters.org.au/Home_files/21%20Reasons%20Why%20Gender%20Matters%28low%20res%29.pdf

Will

Here are Mr. Marshs headings from his hate essay about homosexuality (which he classifies as 'gender disorientation pathology'):

http://www.gendermatters.org.au/Home_files/21%20Reasons%20Why%20Gender%20Matters%28low%20res%29.pdf
16“Gender disorientation pathology, as in the form
of sexual addictions, is often a symptom of family
dysfunction, personality disorder, father absence,
health malfunction or sexual abuse.”

17“Gender disorientation pathology will lead to
increased levels of drug abuse and partner violence.”

18“Gender disorientation pathology will increase
the risk of communicable disease and the likelihood
of suffering bad health.”

19“Gender disorientation pathology will decrease
life expectancy.”

20“Gender disorientation pathology is preventable
and treatable.”

21“Gender disorientation pathology encourages
the sexual and psychological exploitation of
children.”

Do yourselves a favour and read the full detail of his paper before replying to his Few Good Men article above.

Kipp,
why always resort to examples of extremism straight away ? Just normalcy is sufficient to spot the differences. Labor supporters are attracted to short-term spending sprees whereas conservatives are drawn to cautious forward planning. I prefer a conservative approach because it has proved time & time again that it is the wiser way. Just ask any Labor voter when the tills are empty. They always swing to the competent side for just long enough till another spending spree is possible. If labor were as competent as many would have us believe then why don't we have Labor Government after all the money is gone ? Why do we get a conservative government ? Why ? Because they are the ones who can put the dollars back in the till, that's why.

Anti-gay bigots on Roxon’s mens’ health taskforce
http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/26/anti-gay-bigots-on-roxons-mens-health-taskforce/

Australian government embroiled in homophobia row
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/3530867/Australian-government-embroiled-in-homophobia-row.html

Ms Roxon should stand down also. She nor anyone else has an ounce of proof that the straight i.e. normal men's views are baseless. For a senior government minister to give in to pressure from abnormalcy is as wrong as the abnormal act itself. Call me all the fancy names you like but no-one can say that homosexuality is good. If all were homosexual though we wouldn't have a population problem. Vexed situation.

Roxon never said straight men's views were baseless, so of course you are making it all up!

Marsh does not represent the bulk of straight men, only a tiny subset of haters. There are millions of straight men who have no problem whatsoever with gay men, which defeats your argument. Only Mr. Marsh and a minority of homophobes like him have the problem of hate.

If you had said that Roxon feels that hatred against gays is baseless and needless you would be closer to the truth of her viewpoint and the majority viewpoint.

The only abnormal viewpoint is the hatred expressed by a hostile minority to which Marsh belongs

The only hatred being shown here is by those who can't accept the facts that homosexuality is not normal or healthy.

Words like hatred towards homosexuality are wrong to the point of stupidity. People don't hate gays, people simply believe that homosexuality is abnormal. If the homosexuals kept things amongst themselves then so far so good. Where the problems start is that the homosexuals are constantly pushing their agenda onto normal society to the point of promoting homosexuality.. That's when the straights get upset. Stop making an issue out of it and all will be fine.

Methinks Mr Marsh has been corrupted by the contagious mental disease that is religion.

Branding people as "abnormal" is pure hate. Pretending to speak for all heterosexuals regarding their beliefs about gays is dishonest. Mr. Marshs contention that gays are blobking heterosexual women from finding a husband and getting married is a manipulative deceipt which attempts to worry women and get them to side with his hatred- he is playing them like violins. But be warned, women are not the idiots you take them to be.

Mr. Marshs relentless assault against homosexuals is unChristian. He will always be known as a hater, the legacy of his anti homosexual assault in 21 Reasons. Mr. Marsh should go see a Christian counsellor or psychiatrist to find out why he has so much hatred against gays. He needs to process it rather than take it out on the public.

Please, Mr. Marsh, dont pretend you speak for all males or females, or even for the majority. You dont. You speak for yourself and as a man drowning in your mistakes you attempt to garner support from the masses. You dont actually have that support. You speak only with and for hatred, your only true ally.

Pride cometh before a fall, and adding even more pride and hate will only hasten your fall.

I agree with Bleh, "Mr Marsh has been corrupted by the contagious mental disease that is religion."

But I only agree in part because Mr. Marshs hatred isfar more extreme than the average Christian who makes real attempts to show love, even if there is an internal battle. Marsh shows nothing but relentless assault and hate toward gays. So he cant even claim to speak on behalf of Christians.

It would be interesting to know the life background of both Marsh and Individual, as they both show contempt to others that they believe are abnornal.
Studies have shown that those that consider homosexuals "Abnormal", have either latent homosexual tendencies thenselves, or carry baggage from a personal life experience; and use soft targets to counter their inadequacy to address their own negative life baggage.

Kipp,
explain then what makes a homosexual normal if you think calling it abnormal is wrong ? As far as I am concerned give me a woman any day.

Individual:

Homosexuality is common throughout most of the animal kingdom. It is found in every human society and in every period of history. That pretty well defines 'normal' to me. What defines 'normal' to you? Let me guess: your imaginary God's imaginary pronouncements, as delivered and interpreted by self-serving and well-paid functionaries in some self-proclaimed 'faith'.

Abnormal is a word hardly used anymore. When people employ the terms normal/abnormal it is to create power for themselves over others ie. the people who deem themselves normal allot superior priviledge and power to thier belief systems (eg. the KKK), and feel sanctioned by these words to domineer, oppress and hate those arbitrarily deemed abnormal.

Thats why most people no longer use the terms normal and abnormal. They are hate words.

They are hate words.
William 101,
not to a normal human being. I agree the term normal is undefineable because it falls into the category of unspoken law i.e. that goes without saying. It's to do with self control. The human body can absorb all sorts of contact that it is not designed for but can handle a given act of abuse. For example the human body can kill another human body or the human body can succumb to excesses such as water but on the other hand it requires water to function. The point being control. The body can handle jumping off a 2 m cliff but not from a 5 m cliff. To avoid many of those risks/dangers the human & animal body contains a brain. Your brain might tell you it's quite ok to have another bloke trying an act on you that is actually designed by nature to be performed with a member of the opposite sex not your own. My brain tells me that this act is probably the most disgusting behaviour I can think of. Am I normal ? I don't know but neither can you claim you are. All I got to go by is the fact that I am heterosexual & that is a normal prerequisite for procreation.

What your brain tells you is obviously different from what someone elses brain tells them. You should stop viewing yourself as a prototype.

Regarding the title of this piece *A Few Brave Men* its great to see there are far more brave men and women advocating equal rights for homosexuals than there are so-called brave males who hate on gays. It is another deceipt by Mr. Marsh to imply only those few who agree with him are brave. The larger public outcry against the hate is the *many brave men*.

a prototype.
William 101,
Am I to assume that you consider homosexuality being in developmental stages ? In my opinion bravery & stupidity are very often too close to define. Like a man mounting a man is either very brave or very stupid.

Individual, akaMarsh wrote "man mounting a man is either very brave or very stupid."

Or neither.

Mounting is something you do with a horse. It's not something you do to a man or a woman. The only time you would talk about mounting someone is if you hate them

Ya cant beat love. Here's a website for your hard heart Marshy

Christians Unite Against Homophobia!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42296453302#!/group.php?gid=42296453302&v=wall

Barry Gibson,
I can only assume you're speaking from personal experience & so I take your word for it.

Individual akaMarsh

Yes I have plenty of personal experience observing people who hate others and who use denigrating language to increase the hatred.

Posting at 6.28 am now that indicates a lonely person !!

Unless of course, you lived in W.A. where it was o930am, or you posted when you got up for work Kipp?
One can never assume anything about others...unless of course you are Warwick Marsh, where his anti-everything agenda never changes.

Kipp,
6.28 indicates a person about to head off to work in an essential services industry. You'd better check on the meaning of aka.

Barry Gibson,
Hating others ? I bet you do, you don't leave much to guess about your mentality.

Individual akaMarsh wrote:

"I can only assume you're speaking from personal experience & so I take your word for it." "you don't leave much to guess about your mentality."

haha No, I am not Gay. I have a beautiful wife and am happily married with four kids. Wouldnt it have been convenient if i were gay and you could hate me like you hate all the other gays? If I was gay you could have claimed that hertro males never stick up for gays? Sorry to let your hate reflex down. You'll have to find another excuse for why I defend gays as a hetro male. Have you ever wondered why the majority of hetro males defend gays against hate? Because they can see the pin head size of your hateful selfish bigoted heart. Marshy the gay Grinch.

Incidently Marshy judging by the lack of responses to this thread any previous support for your anger at gays seems to have evaporated. I wonder why that could be.

Barry Gibson,
your fixation with hate makes you babble dribble. find yourself a tree to hug.

Better to babble dribble than to vomit hate. ;-)

Barry
relax, you'll think different once you get to 18 or 19.

Give up Marshy akaIndividual, no one gives a damn about your hate campaign. Even your Christian buddies refuse to contribute to this thread because they believe in love, not hate. If anyone needs to grow up it is you.

Well done Warwick, another fine article. I have friends who are gay - I work with many of them in the airline industry. But I don't think homosexuality is normal, or right, or even desirable.

It's like smoking - a choice one might make, often in our teens, that might linger for a few years, or for the rest of your life. A very addictive and pretty unhealthy choice, but a choice nonetheless.

For homosexuals to impose gay marriage on the rest of society is like smokers saying they want to be allowed to smoke everywhere, including confined spaces and to call anyone who disagrees with them tobaccophobic...

William 101,

21“Gender disorientation pathology encourages
the sexual and psychological exploitation of
children.”

Actually, independent studies have shown that approx. 80 to 85% of men who have molested youths, have had homosexual, rather than heterosexual proclivities. This does, in fact, show that point no. 21, in the booklet 'Gender Matters,' is in fact correct.

M. Batman

Warwick,

Bravo for your courageous defence of the family & in God given gender roles.

It takes real guts to resist the flow of the stream.

M. Batman

Its great to see the men listed in the article standing up to parties which represent a minority of Australians trying to introduce laws which would take Australia and its people to a new low. Please continue Mr Marsh with theses articles. You are certainly man of courage especially with the pathetic comments against youself listed in this forum. You are not alone with your veiws. Chrildren need fathers and Australia needs real men and women to stand up to the ridiculous policies that are being put forward.

I am so sick of reading posts where Christians are denounced as homophobes or gay-haters.
Let me set the record "straight".

GOD IS LOVE. The Bible says it and millions of people experience it every day.
God loves everyone - dictators, Muslims, atheists, gays… no exceptions. There is no entry fee, no secret handshake, no special introduction required to be loved by God.

As Christians we are to mimic Christ who Himself "only does what He sees the Father doing." We are called to love unconditionally. That’s the highpoint of Christianity… a level we all fall short of unfortunately, but it is the goal nonetheless.

I have a 6yo son who is frequently selfish, intolerant, disobedient. A typical child.
I dislike his bad behaviour and poor choices, but I still love "him". I tell him his behaviour is not acceptable and mete out discipline as necessary. I also tell him I love him daily - with words and actions.

So if I "hate" his sinful behaviour, am I a hateful father? Do I hate children per se?

God "hates" it when we disobey Him, but He still loves us. Wouldn’t any real father want the best for his children?

Christians don’t agree with the gay lifestyle as being the "best choice" for a person, nor do we agree with many of the political policies being pursued so actively in the public arena by the Gay Lobby/Greens.

We strongly believe in the values that God has placed in our hearts and we will defend them vigorously.

But don’t you dare say that Christians hate gays. You have got it all wrong.

Ah, the "God is love" defence, Martin S.

>>God loves everyone - dictators, Muslims, atheists, gays… no exceptions. There is no entry fee, no secret handshake, no special introduction required to be loved by God. As Christians we are to mimic Christ who Himself "only does what He sees the Father doing."<<

The only problem with that approach is that the behaviours that accompany such fine words, so often deny them. As Hamlet opined...

"But to my mind, though I am native here
And to the manner born, it is a custom
More honour'd in the breach than the observance"

Hate, as has been pointed out here, takes many forms. While it is easy to say the words "of course I don't hate gays/Muslims/atheists", it is far more difficult to disguise actions that contradict this. By encouraging a wide range of discriminations - there are many clerics who still think that being gay is a lifestyle choice, for example - they demonstrate hatred extremely effectively.

Yes, there are branches of (the very same) religion that embrace gays, and who can validly claim to be free of hatred for them:

http://www.gaychristian.net/

"...homosexual behavior is appropriate within the confines of a committed, loving, monogamous, lifelong, Christ-centered relationship. Essentially, I'm arguing that a Christ-centered marriage is a good thing, regardless of the gender of the people involved"

And there are those that don't:

http://www.allaboutworldview.org/gay-christians.htm

"The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin... specifically that those who fall into homosexuality do so as a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, God "gives them over" to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God... please don't be blinded by the lies of a clever enemy whose only goal is your destruction. Come to the Savior who gave His life to set you free from all sin."

Now it may just be me, but that sounds like a threat.

Who would wish eternal damnation on a group of people, if they loved them?

God loves gays ? I'm sure he tolerates them otherwise he would have designed humans differently. After all, didn't he make us in his own image ?

Dear Pericles,
No one wishes eternal damnation on anyone. Following Christ is a personal decision.

No one forces anyone to do anything. There are always consequences - perhaps this side of eternity (goal, disease, loneliness etc), but definitely on the other side.

Everyone in effect chooses their own destiny. What could be fairer?

But God’s love manifests in trying to help people realise their fateful decisions. To completely ignore them would be hateful. Being confronted with the (Biblical) truth is the first step in repentance.

I don’t understand all the internal physiological processes in homosexuals, nor am I clear on why they are the way they are. So I am certainly not going to try & prove anything by social studies, genetics or ex-gay testimonies.

What I do know is that we can't go around changing the Bible every time some section of the community says it is incompatible with their way of thinking. God does not change. He is not a fad. God transcends our culture, language, national sovereignties, even history. We bend to Him, not vice versa.

I live with that (perhaps to you, unpalatable) central truth by remembering that only God knows everything and secondly, that God is love. He is fair, and will treat every bit of "evidence" on its merits and in accordance with His published Law (the Bible).

I can only go on His revealed truth and try to be a "good servant". Servants don't question every decision from the Master. Yes, we have a brain and should use it, but not for insubordination.

Soldiers rely entirely on their General’s orders and only improvise within that framework, not outside of it.

So what is love? For an addict, they may need to experience "tough love" in order to finally break their addiction. Love doesn’t have to be soft & gooey, giving in to our every whim. In fact, tough love is evidence of TRUE love, wanting the best for the individual over and above our own needs.

Making decisions that go against our inner desires IS hard, but NOTHING is impossible with God's help.

Everyone in effect chooses their own destiny. What could be fairer?
MartinS,
Excuse me please but statements like that are just too outlandish & idealistic & even more insulting.
There are too many factors to list where people simply do not have a choice. Try & look at your surrounds without the rose-coloured glasses on & look at the many victims of greed & incompetent Government policy.
let me tell you what could be fairer ! No goody-gooders & useless bureaucrats interfering with peoples' lives & let victims retaliate in a fashion to match the insult.

Choice in final destination is one thing we do have.

Choosing to be God of our own lives is a choice and has consequences for us and others around us.

Most often it is short term gain for long term loss.

We can bicker about the detail in a futile effort to ignore/delay the single most important choice of our lives.

This Choice will then guide each of the following.

We do not have an eternity to make this single most important choice but we will live with the consequences for eternity.

Well what a revolting article, worthy of the oleaginous Obadiah Slope, who was also wont to ingratiate himself to his utmost while sanctimoniously deprecating the ostentatious sin and debauch that polluted the pure environs of his (master's) spartan church.
The fact that political parties are using issues like gay marriage for their own cynical purposes is beside the point, gay marriage is performing a valuable by-partisan function in making a mockery of an oppressive institution. This has nothing to do with political correctness. Gays might actually make marriage respectable by neutering the power dynamic.
So why, Warwick, are you picking on Gays? I didn't read "Christian" in your CV?
Whatever opportunistic point scoring's going on in political parties, aren't gays deserving of legitimacy for their God-given preference? Or hey, just for their human rights? They should get the GM medal for their sheer balls in defying the stereotypical crap that people like you want enforced so as to preserve the twee little illusions you wrap yourself in..

Are you sure, Martin S?

>>Dear Pericles, No one wishes eternal damnation on anyone<<

Some people do.

"He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:12

http://www.icwseminary.org/evil_abomination.htm

And, presumably, given that the "sinner" is unlikely to "repent" in this situation, he will be destined for that unquenchable fire that Jesus spoke about.

"..the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also" Rev 20:10

http://carm.org/hell-eternal

Christians - some Christians, with you claiming exemption - wish homosexuals to be cast into the fiery pits of hell, where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever". Rev 20:10

>>What I do know is that we can't go around changing the Bible every time some section of the community says it is incompatible with their way of thinking.<<

You need to heed your own advice. You can't go around changing the Bible's verdict on gays burning in hell just because it is incompatible with your way of thinking.

But we are not discussing a way of thinking here, are we. We are discussing a way of being. And you have decided, along with a whole lot of other people, that the fact that being gay is incompatible with your Christian faith.

>>I can only go on His revealed truth and try to be a "good servant". Servants don't question every decision from the Master. Yes, we have a brain and should use it, but not for insubordination.<<

The problem I see with that, is not your obedience to your Master, which I completely accept is a key component of your religious beliefs, but your personal interpretation of those "decisions" that you believe he has made.