It is wise to receive a dose o John Pilger every so often. He is experienced, well-researched, an honourable writer and an Australian.

He has identified the number of countries that have been controlled and exploited by the US, the #1 terrorist of all time. Capable of the manufacture of popular fiction, (al Qaeda in 2011), joint destabilisation programs like Pakistan at this very moment with the CIA, Mossad and India's RAW, they are covertly and overtly an evil empire and in their own indirect way, the reason for the unrest currently in the Arab world, their eyes clearly on Iran who have not yet been subjugated and therefore, do not toe the US / Israeli line.

Now they can't have that.

Sadly, the naivety of the American people wandering their little domains, still believing that the US Federal Reserve is a national institution, managed by government and able to be directed by the administrations of America, is just one example of how the control of media and the subservience by US administrations to the evil that is Israel, totally across the board with law enforcement, public servants, military and certainly 80% of both the Congress and The Senate, which when combined with a high level of apathy, allows the manipulation of the people's minds a simple task. The likes of Murdoch fill that bill every day.

As John Pilger has said, 'a word we dare not speak', fascism, a system of extreme right wing government, is alive and being practised in the US, who through their covert involvement have installed, tolerated and supported the Pinochet's of this world, the recently fallen Mubarak who did their bidding to the letter and every dictator known to history. The US is in there, boots and all.

So where from here? Unless the US people wake to the facts of 9/11, the real facts that is, the insidious parasitic cancer that is Israel controlling their totally compromised US elected representatives today, then it will be more of the same, the same cancer already in its early stages in this country, at the top.

Pilger's fanatical hatred of the US has totally warped his world view. He has no credibility.

Pilger lives somewhat luxuriously in London enjoying the delights of the capitalist system. Yet he is a good friend of the well-known eternally 'elected' dictator Hugo Chavez and his failing Socialist experiment. He has been racist in his criticism of Obama calling him "a glossy Uncle Tom who would bomb Pakistan". He frequently and conveniently gets his 'facts' wrong. He has a fanatical hatred of Israel and fabricates damning stories about them to prove his point.

Unfortunately, those who are susceptible to his conspiracy theories never check his assertions and swallow his nonsense hook, line and sinker.

Lets face it Pilger is a tired old 60's lefty who is on to a good thing and lives very nicely off it thank you very much even if it is full of hyperbole and outright 'untruths'.

This is a bit rich, John Pilger getting all indignant about tyrannies. The word 'fascism' could at least as easily be applied to many of the countries that he is dead quiet about, which happen not to be in the US camp. It's cheap and easy to go after Suharto and Pinochet and Mobutu, fair enough, and there isn't much point in playing the 'tu quoque' card. But couldn't China be seen as a corporatist state ?

Mengistu and Mugabe and Ghaddafi and Saddam and god knows how many others surely have verged on fascism, under left-sounding titles to be sure, but still fascism. Sometimes, over the last sixty years, it's been hard to tell the difference. Even from the Left :(

But surely the issue now is: once many Arab countries overthrow their corporatist or fascist or authoritarian dictators, how do they organise themselves to put better societies in place ? Those countries which have relied on oil, after all, will still have to rely on oil, and therefore markets - and frankly, I haven't seen much evidence of any anti-Western feeling, in Tunisia or Egypt or Libya. Maybe I missed it on TV, but I haven't seen any US flags getting burnt yet.

And who are Libyans appealing to when they cry out "Help us, help us, please, please, help us !" and ask for a no-fly zone to be enforced ?

The reality is, no matter how evil the Yanks may be or have been in the past, these revolutions do not have anything much to do directly with the US or the EU - but they do seem to be focussed on democracy, on the people's involvement in government and in shaping their own lives, on rights and the power to take responsibility.

In other words, modern democratic principles - not corporatism, not fascism, not even socialism, but democracy. What we are witnessing are their democratic revolutions.

All strength to their arms.

Joe

Pilger's writings are getting more strange as he gets older.

They are always good for a chuckle with the morning coffee.

"Hillary Clinton gave a speech.... It was a speech of spectacular hypocrisy, and Ray McGovern was in the audience. Outraged, he rose from his chair and silently turned his back on Clinton. He was immediately seized by police and a security goon and beaten to the floor, dragged out and thrown into jail, bleeding. He has sent me photographs of his injuries. He is 71. During the assault, which was clearly visible to Clinton, she did not pause in her remarks."

It's a pity some of you US apologists don't get out and read a bit more of the non-Murdoch press..

David

Relatively cogent Pilger, for a change.

Not the nonsense about "...worldwide economic tyranny designed by the US Treasury and imposed by the US Agency for International Development, the IMF and World Bank..." of course. That's just Pilger channelling Arjay.

But the obvious relationship between street-level revolution and a country's massively unbalanced haves/have nots, should not be missed amongst the polemical spittle.

Most of the comments above show how totally ignorant most Australians are. They are second only to the Americans.

Most Australians have been fed the 'America is next to Godliness' crap for so long they actually believe it. They ignore the warmongering of America, its support of dictators, its profiting from endless wars, its invasions and occupations of oil-rich countries, its torture, its keeping people in cages, its imprisoning of people without trial, its rendition, its brutality against its own citizens, its rampant imperialism, its lying and duplicity, its culture of greed, its lamentable support of the brutal Israeli regime, its killing of millions of civilians, etc, etc.

Wake up Australia before America gobbles you up too!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

David,

And its bombing of its own unarmed population ? Machine-gunning its own unarmed population ? Using mercenaries to go house to house killing its own unarmed population ?

I might have missed those :)

Can we move on from these childish 'tu quoque' arguments ? The issue here is not the US, but the people in Arab countries, mainly Libya at the moment. Can they win their own democracy, and build their own democratic societies, as free as practicable from outside interference (given the economic reliance on outside markets) on the one hand and Islamist medievalism on the other ?

Joe

Joe, you seem very reluctant to admit that both the US and the UK governments are resposible for the situation in Libya with their support of Qaddafi. Without that support he would have gone long ago as would quite a few other dictators (too numerous for either John Pilger or I to mention) around the world.

David

Sadly, VK3AUU, people do not analyse the words they read in the Murdoch publications and as you would be aware, it is getting harder and harder to find something that comes from another source.

In this country, as well you would know, Fairfax are the last remaining group with anything like an honest viewpoint, although receiving their news sometimes generated from the tainted news production sources as we used to see in Australia, such as CNN can change all that. Fortunately, such sources are now seen for what they are, the likes of Fox and the New York Times , having taken over the historical mantle of Joseph Goebbels of Third Reich fame.

A comment above mentions that Pilger does have a friendship with Hugo Chavez. I was not aware of that but can understand it. Venezuela is an oil provider, and we all know what that means. It has been proven so many times that the US are trying to destabilise that country providing as they do almost all of their output to the the US consumers. Important therefore for the US to have a compliant and controlled government in place.

As with the US-sponsored assassination of Allende in Chile in 1973, copper being the motivator there thanks to Nixon and Kissinger. What a pair they were. So it was with Cuba, daring to accept a benevolent socialist leader in 1960 who cleaned out the US mafia, the country's largest industry, US owned of course and not forgetting drugs and large scale prostitution and gambling providing staggering revenues to the US, so they receive a mafia-sponsored embargo for 51 years to date and still running. That was Kennedy of Laos and Cambodia fame, a criminal if ever there was one followed by even worse leaders such as Johnson, Nixon.
Yes, people may choose to call PIlger anti-American but he tells the real truth that so many people in this day and age, choose to ignore. Much more convenient to ignore rather than having to think too hard about it.

You cannot dispute the facts and you cannot ignore history.

Dear John, I just spent 3 months in ME and North Africa. Much time spent Tunisia, Maroc and Egypt. One of the most astonishing comments I heard, and more than once, was “what do we have to do to get the Americans to invade us?”

I think you are both passionate and compassionate. I also get the feeling that your hatred of the US has led you to conclude that some of the most complex socio/political problems associated with these failed States are now just a blame game and mostly directed at the US.

This over simplistic and myopic view of the world has robbed you of common sense and analytical ability. It also acts as a very convenient diversion from the fact that human rights and peace activists have been asleep at the wheel for the last 20 years.

The world is increasingly accepting the fact that all forms of dictatorship are “terrorist” by their very nature and that the primary victims of dictatorships are their own subjects.

They are the victims of the “great lies”.

These include: That someone else is responsible for your pain. It is not your leaders that are at fault, if it were not for foreign intervention, we, your leaders could remove your pain. If you focus the hatred and vilification we have created within you, upon the enemy we have also created for you, things will be better.

If you martyr yourself for the political cause that keeps your leaders in power, we promise you eternal happiness, when in fact all we promise you instant death and consign your loved ones to a life of anguish, misery and retribution.

We your leaders have not hijacked your religion, your freedoms, your country, your finances, your education or your next generation of offspring in order to prop up our political aims or to mask our evil incompetence.

By blaming the US you are indeed perpetrating one of the great lies, to which the peoples you seek to protect are falling victim.

What it is you seek to avoid, you create.

What Mr Pilger fails to remember is the billions of roubles Russian plowed into the willing coffers of the various Arab militaries during the 60's & 70's with an avowed mutual strategy of the annihilation Israel. Russia hoped to open a second front against the USA (first was Vietnam), the Arabs wanted to redeem their esteem post 1948. It is always so easy to blame the USA & 'The West' for the ills of the world from Mr Pilger's perspective.

Vk3AUU,

Madiba Mandela also was friendly with Ghaddafi, but I'm certainly not going to hold that against him. It's called politics, or more euphemistically, diplomacy. And what's sauce for the South African goose is also sauce for the US and UK ganders :) Barking up the wrong tree, VK3AUU.

No, I certainly don't think that the US or the West are responasible for the situation in Libya, you got that right: Ghaddafi has had something to do with it. So have the Russians, Chinese, Turks, everybody who either gave them arms or money to get him on-side, or tried to make a buck out of his people's resources. Ghaddafi is not and never has been anybody's puppet, not the West's, not Russia's: he is his own demagogue.

Back to reality: the people of Libya will liberate their country, with or without outside help, it's up to them to ask for it or not.

The people are overthrowing a dictatorship. John Pilger tries with all his might to twist this into something anti-US (one suspects, to divert attention away from the sins of dictators like Ghaddafi). It has nothing much to do with the US. It has everything to do with the Libyan people, who also are not, and never have been, puppets.

I hope that they never will be and that they will forge their own democratic structures, free of all outside economic and political interference, and as distant as possible from medieval Islamism.

Joe

It's a must read post. The people's triumph in Cairo was the first blow against what Benito Mussolini called corporatism, a word that appears in his definition of fascism. How do I convince those who still think corporations are their friend, otherwise?

What I found interesting was the USA's incredibly slow pace of endorsing the pro-democracy uprising until it was absolutely certain the insurgents were going to win.

Of course, when you need the favor of every nasty dictator in the region to retain political influence in the area, you can't appear TOO enthusiastic to a movement which is no good for them.

John Pilger blames America for poverty and unhappiness in the Middle East, what then of the billions upon billions of dollars going in to those countries from oil dollars? What are the leaders doing with that money, Not sharing it with the Arab people it would seem.

He also indulges in a twisted kind of supremacist thinking in believing that the Arab people are not capable of doing anything not orchestrated by America.

John Pilger is an old left wing hippie who has failed to move on in his thinking 40years later, as are a lot of people from that generation.
Julian Assange also grew up under the influence of a left wing hippie single mother. I know the mind set of the hippie generation well, I grew up in that era too, believing in the idea that with love and tolerance and sharing and socialist principles we could change the world.
I know now that those ideas won’t change the world.

John Pilger and Julian Assange think they are smarter than others who do not perceive America as the badie and so they keep on trying to enlighten us as to our stupidity. What they fail to realise is a lot of us do see and know the manipulating and political scheming that America and the west has been and is capable of. Heavens knows we’ve had it shoved down our throats all our lives by the old academics and hippies of the 70’s generation.
It is, however, them who fail to realise that America doesn’t have the copywrite on this kind of behaviour and the countries they defend are indulging in the same political and manipulative and military murk right up to their arm pits too.

John and Julian with their supremacist thinking don’t realise the people in these countries are just as intelligent as them and regularly manipulate and pull the wool over the eyes of Western media reporters like them.

Yes, Hazza,

A good kick in the nuts if they intervene, and another good kick up the @rse if they don't. The joys of being a bystander !

Meanwhile, al Jazeera has an interesting video that some confused fool accidentally put on a left-wing blog, about Ghaddafi's links with Latin American countries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-HvdqjsqXM&feature=player_embedded

detailing the cosy links between Ghaddafi and Ortega in Nicaragua, Chavez in Venezuela and the Castro dynasty in Cuba.

All fallen heroes :(

But, Hazza, I think I've discovered the word that John Pilger dare not speak:

INTEGRITY

This a must see.Ray McGovern gets arrested and bashed at Hillary Clinton's speech on freedom for Egyptians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My29YT1T4R4

Pilger is from the left and I'm from the right.We have common ground and that is the right of individuals to have freedom and a mechanism of democracy for self determination.We live in a corporatised society that is stripping away basic rights and freedoms.

Arjay

Thanks for posting the video of the removal of the protestor at Hilary Clinton’s speech. I was curious to see it. The only trouble is the bit I actually wanted to see, that is, what the man actually did to make the security guards so nervous that they had to remove him wasn’t shown.

It was stated somewhere that he stood up and turned his back on Hilary, that may have been enough for the security guards to become suspicious, because it is unusual behaviour. Besides if a man stood up in a movie theatre and just stood there blocking the view of the people behind him, I think a security guard would remove him for being a nuisance too, so where’s the big deal.
Honestly, people make mountains out of molehills and see conspiracies and oppression where there is none.

If he didn’t want to be jumped on by the security people then all he had to do was act normally like everyone else at the event. Because of the threat of assassins they are trained to react to any behaviour out of the ordinary.
Obviously he either didn’t have the brains to realise this or he deliberately provoked it.

CHERFUL,they did not have to remove Ray McGovern in this fashion,nor was it necessary to beat him.He stood up and displayed his peace T shirt.Hillary was talking about the necessity if free speech with hollow words.

CHERYL
Don't be so naive and/or disingenuous.

David

I have only one word for this article:

Prozac.

I'm not wanting to jump down the USA's back THAT much Loudmouth, and I am perfectly happy that the USA is sitting out of these conflicts (physically).

However it is a fair swipe that not at least promptly endorsing a democratic movement for fear of alienating their non-democratic regional allies, is rather lacking considering all the jumping up and down over the issue in the past and not now when it is probably the best time to start promoting it.

Although it doesn't really matter as far as Egypt is concerned (they're still seeming to be pretty serious about Democracy despite less than stellar public perception of America), the USA isn't doing itself or the rest of the region any favors by not endorsing the democracy concept as an aspiration for the post-dictator countries- especially while Sharia groups are also trying to gain revolutionary-brownie-points.

It would be a great loss to the region (and the world at large) to let the extremists lead the uprisings or take charge of regime change, because we were too frightened to anger the autocrats in the gulf states.

I agree, Hazza, but this might be the easy way out: what if the people WANT intervention, and quickly : Compare these entries on al-Jazeera's Libya Blog:

"5:22am: Details of the US sanctions are emerging. They are:

Freeze of assets held by Gaddafi and four of his children inside US, all US banks have been put on notice for sudden movement of funds from Libya and all military assistance cut off.

"5:23am: Ashraf Tulti, director of the Justice and Democracy for Libya group based in Washington, DC, told Al Jazeera that sanctions go against people; they will not affect the Libyan regime.

Instead, he asked for immediate action to stop the killings of Libyan people."

Enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya may not need many, or any, US forces actually on the ground in Libya - if Malta or Egypt or Tunisia gave approval, then US or NATO planes could be quickly moved there and launch attacks on Libyan airfields, shoot down planes, whatever else they need to do to enforce that no-fly policy. Then they withdraw any active forces, as they have done from Kosovo and Bosnia and Iraq.

But when the people plead, 'Please help us, help us, please !' what might they mean ? When, as above, a spokesperson says not to worry about sanctions but asks for 'immediate action', whether you or I like it, that does seem to mean 'send in troops', or at least air support for the people, in the form of a policy that denies freedom of the skies to Ghaddafi's fighters.

And I wonder what Pilger would write about the people asking for US intervention ? Or would he prefer Cuban intervention ? On Ghaddafi's side ? As an Aboriginal friend of mine says often, you can paint a turd in gold paint but it's still a turd.

Joe

John Pilger has for years disclosed events that the media-combine controlling our diet of news carefully absconds from us. He does it at his personal risk.

Many of us reading his articles are infuriated by the light he shines to emphasize those events’ relevance.

We do it in the context of political views ingrained in our brains by years of schooling that passes for education and propaganda that passes for information.

But John Pilger is himself a product of that schooling-information process imparted or pushed into people’s throats.

Evidently Pilger and opponents need a battle field for the contest to occur.

My hope is that we and Pilger can soon discover that we are fronting political opponents which may be, say; good or bad, but who are people, people with opinions or ideas, like us, people that are dead or will be dead.

No, Pilger and others, we are all wrong. Thom Hobbes’ Leviathan is our enemy.

Its new name is ‘The State’.

Skeptic,

With respect, that last one-liner is another easy way out: the problem is what to do after that realisation.

On another thread, contributions have been exploring this very issue:

Discussion: A Democratic Alternative To Democracy
Forum link: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4305

Get back to us :)

To some of Pilger is philsophically incorrect,but he does have an uncanny knack of digging up the raw truth which the Hollywood Glamours of image without substance find very disconerting.

More power to you John Pilger.It matters not what you believe but how you treat your fellow man.

No arguments there Loudmouth- those are indeed positive interventions that should harm the ones in charge and minimize their ability to suppress their rebellions (I was thinking more along the lines general nation-wide trading sanctions and outright invasion as we tried a few times in the past).

It seems to be happening in full swing now that it seems to be widespread and likely to overthrow half of the old regimes- but there has been a long delay before Washington would take an official stance on the issue, which underlines a sad reality that the USA can (or will) only support democracy when it doesn't harm their diplomatic standing and conveniences- as to declare support for the pro-democracy groups meant stating their opposition to the governance of one of their own allies).

Early support would have cost them their relationship with Saudi, Yemen, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait instantly, and far worsened their relationship with virtually every other Middle Eastern country, even ones already on opposite sides.
Late support could have been interpreted as an attempt to be diplomatic towards the new winning side.

Hazza,

It's probably stretching reality a bit to call Ghaddafi an ally of the US - of Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua and Zimbabwe maybe, but not of the US. Strangely, I haven't heard any call from the people for the intervention of those fine people's democracies. Although, it seems, Zimbabwe has been sending troops to help one side of the struggle.

And I'm still waiting for either an American flag to get burnt, OR to see one flying in the crowd: either way will be a sort of touchstone of which direction the revolutions will go.

But surely there are many, many nuanced positions between mere sanctions and outright invasion ? Establishing a no-fly zone over the next few days, once it is clear that that is what the people ask for - this is an option that the US, the people and even the Left commentariat may prefer.

I think there is a long, long way to go yet across the Middle East: Saudi Arabia and Iran will probably be the next big fish to get caught in the nets of democracy. Hasten the day !

Joe

Arjay,

Pilger exaggerates and fabricates information which he presents as carefully researched facts. You should check out his 'facts' before getting carried away with his style and attitude. As I said in an earlier post, he is easily able to recruit those who see conspiracies everywhere.

The US are definitely not friends with Zimbabwe, Cuba or Libya: though I can imagine even with them, that the USA would still have plenty of security policies negotiated with the likes of these countries that they would rather not be revoked on condition of supporting democratic movements. These may include cracking down on people smugglers and drug cartels in their vicinity on the US's behalf. And of course there are probably agreements with these countries and others not to harbor terrorists, not attack Israel, or keep wanted outlaws out of their jurisdiction.

As they're all run by dictators, none of them would be too happy to see the USA supporting a democratic uprising anywhere in the world and in doing so, making them look bad- so naturally they would weave up some crazy conspiracies, provide moral support for the despots under siege (like Chavez rooting for Gaddafi).
Of course, it IS mainly the gulf states that the US doesn't want to offend to much, as it could mean a giant hike in oil prices.

All in all, from their point of view, its a matter of rocking a boat that has been giving such a comfortable ride.

That aside, I definitely hope you're right about this movement expanding to the other countries- it would definitely make the world a better place if it did.

Atman Pilger does not exaggerate or guild the lilly in regards the USA.In fact he does not state the awful truth.The USA Govt was complicit in the events of 911.The Muslims did not do it.We have the scientific,witness and circumstancial evidence to prove it.

I will take bets to any amount for you and others to disprove the evidenece here http://ae911truth.org/ or here http://patriotsquestion911.org/

Have a long hard look at both sites and give me a logical explanation as to why WTC7 the third tower,came down at freefall speeds which no plane impacted.

Cherful, you write:

*John Pilger is an old left wing hippie who has failed to move on in his thinking 40years later, as are a lot of people from that generation.
Julian Assange also grew up under the influence of a left wing hippie single mother.*

What's this? Slag off left wingers, hippies, older people, single mothers, Assange and Pilger all in one fell swoop?

Talk about being fascist.

Not necessarily, Jenny, I think that she has made a very accurate assessment.

When Pilger comes out and criticises Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Zimbabwe for their support for Ghaddafi against the Libyan people, I'll have some time for him.

But I'm not holding my breath :)

With respect for John Pilger and for all of us who have commented on his writing and his persona, I have to reiterate that we share with him the input on our mental formation of schools and media and that, it is on the grounds of this input that our discourse with Pilger or among ourselves is essentially conducted.

The few who have escaped, consciously or unconsciously this input, do not walk the avenues of notoriety but at times can be found facing our learned Judges and often within prisons.

Outside the parameters mentioned we are dazzled, confused by a reality outside our grasp.

One example comes to mind.

We hear and repeat ad nauseam the word Democracy and it seems that each of us has a peculiar idea of it.

Let me advance my definition and ask how many of us agree with it. Here we go:

Democracy is where the Taxpayer (=the only contributor to the wealth common to all in a society) can follow the trial of his/her contribution.

It is clear that this definition is wrong. Were it right, the phenomenon Julian Assange would not have occurred.

The field is open for all.

Loudmouth,

I am back.

You and I are not unlike those who find themselves shot-at in many parts of the world.

We do not have the urgency of the poor. We can bite our time, and, at election, give our vote only to candidates with relevant skills, and proven administrative abilities and on condition that the Books are to be open for our checking at all times.

If no bank gives out money without securities, why should we give our vote on the never-never?

John Pilger dredges up a new conspiracy every month, and his analysis is laughable.

My own opinion is that he is off his meds.

Thanks for your cryptic comments, Skeptic :)

Another word that Pilger dare not speak is 'Impartiality': we may hear from him about Blair and Bush and many other western leaders as some sort of Ghaddafi lickspittles, but not of Mandela for being friendly to Ghaddafi. Fair enough that they all were friendly, it's called politics - I have no particular quarrel with any of them for that.

Meanwhile only Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Serbia and Venezuela, perhaps Argentina and Zimbabwe as well, are cosying up to Ghaddafi, so I look forward to hearing Pilger condemn them as well.

No ? Won't happen ? Thought not.

Meanwhile, this news item from al-Jazeera might set us right:

6:15am Hana Elgallal, a legal and human rights expert in Benghazi, said some in Libya will be disappointed that the UN did not impose a no-fly zone. "I'm one person who was hoping that we'd get that," she told Al Jazeera.

"We will not be able to move and help Tripoli because of the fear that he will use his planes. But whatever we get now we will look at it positively and consider it a victory and success.

"Hopefully things will escalate in our benefit soon to defuse the massacres in Tripoli."

I'm still waiting for a US flag to get either burned, or waved - but clearly, the fact that we see neither is probably evidence that this is not about the US, or the West - it's about freedom and democracy, a new day, in Libya and other Arab countries.

Joe

Loudmouth,Zimbabwe needed saving long ago.The atrocities there have far exceeded that of Libya.The only reason the West wants to save Libya now,is the oil.The same is true of East Timor.Aust did not want to know about the injustice there until the discovery of oil.

Stealing oil from poor countries will not make it cheaper at the bowser for us.We are now seeing a monopolising of energy around the planet for greater profits.The Global Corporates do not want competition.They have no empathy for the serfs who maintain this fragile umbrella called civilisation.

JD Rockefeller," Competition is a sin."

Arjay,

Get some sense, when the Libyan people set up a new government, do you think they won't need the revenue from oil to keep the economy afloat ? Do you think they won't want to re-establish contracts with consuming countries ? Do you think that, no matter what government is in power in any country, if they depend on oil from other countries now, they will not depend on oil from foreign countries into the future ?

Oil is a resource, something which generates revenue in producing countries. And oil is a vital component of economic life in consuming countries. No matter what government is in power, in either producing or consuming countries, that will still be the way things go.

Move on from this brainless 'it's all about oil, how terrible' argument. It's a lazy, easy argument. Currently, every country needs oil, and if a country has it, it needs to produce it. You haven't cracked some magic, secret formula, Arjay, like it's the secret to the universe.

Which is 42, by the way.

Arjay,

The WTC7 conspiracy theory is easily debunked.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278874

Atman.Popular mechanics will not save the liars nor yourself.The anomalies if 911 are enormous.Many commissioners who served in the 911 Commission call it a whitewash.89% of Germans along with 77% of Australians and Americans do not believe the official story.There are now 1400+ architects and engineers,400+ professors 220+ ex CIA/military,ex Govt + other officials and many others at http://patriotsquestion911.com/ who think it is a coverup.Notice that Ray McGovern is a prominant supporter on this site along with hundreds of prominant political leaders around the planet saying it is a coverup.When the fascists are afoot,you do not lightly put your neck and reputation on the chopping block.

This is not like climate science,it is forensic science where there is little margin for error.

Atman either enter into to real debate about detail of admit defeat.How did all 3 buildings fall at freefall in their own footprints leaving no evidence of a layered collapse as in Christchurch? Many buildings in Christchurch fell over as well as leaving evidence of layered floors.Freefall speeds means that the buildings had no resistance to gravity whatsoever,which is impossible.All the buildings at the 911 WTC were totally dis-membered with concrete being turned to dust and steel left molten.Aircraft fuel will only burn to half the temps of molten steel in optimum conditions.The fires burned for weeks underground even though they poured millions if litres of water on it.Nano-thermite has its own oxygen supply and can burn without exposure to air.It's existance has been proven by Prof Neils Harritt and his team of 9 international scienists whose peer reviewed paper has not been disputed.Govts will not even try to debunk it.Nano-thermite is a highly sophistocated military explosive which cannot be made by cave dwellers in Afghanistan.

So put up Atman,or shut up!

I think John Pilger has echoed the sentiments of many of us who are wondering what the hell is going on with a country that sees itself as that great bastion of Jeffersonian ideals - One quick point on McGovern, in a true fascist state the video would not have made it out, and McGovern would have been jailed indefinetely without his rights. He has his freedom, his rights and the footage to promote his cause and to embarass Clinton and the administration - surely not too sinister an episode!

Interuptus,Obama has strengthened his Preventative Detention presidential edicts.They are in the process of widening the definition of a terrorist.People like Ray McGovern may soon be incarcerated infinietly without trial.All they need is another false flag event and bring in martial law.

They are following the formula set out by the Third Reich.Hilter has a Dept of Homeland security and did many of the things the USA is doing now.See Naomi Wolf's 10 Steps to Fascism.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment The USA qualifies in all areas to some degree.We have Howards Sedition Laws which do much the same thing.

They have used fear of terrorism and climate change to take away our rights.Humans are seen by the elites as a blight on the planet that must be controlled or exterminated.

Freedom or Fascism.The choice is ours.

Sometimes, concentrating too hard on "what is America doing" takes the eye off the main game.

The current crop of problems in the Middle East are almost exclusively economic. Not "oil-producing" economic, but simple, household finance type economic.

Libya has substantial oil revenues (25% of GDP) and a small population. This gives them one of the highest per capita GDPs in Africa, but from what we've heard and seen over the past week or so, not much is getting past the "rulers" (read: institutionalized bandits).

http://www.indexmundi.com/libya/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html

When it becomes increasingly clear to the people - whether they find out via Twitter, Facebook or whatever - that they are being dudded by the ruling classes, something will eventually give.

The present upheavals have nothing to do with the US. Less than nothing, in some places, in that US intervention is as unwelcome as their existing dictatorships.

It can now be argued with much more evidence that the "it had to happen" Bush/Blair justification of their Iraq invasion was no more than the self-important flanneling of two over-promoted hacks. Left to itself, Iraq would have certainly gone the same way, with far less bloodshed and far fewer long-term consequences, as the current crop of ousters. They may even have led the pack, who knows.

I totally disagree with anyone who perceives any form of vast conspiracy in all this, however. Plain straightforward human failings, such as social blindness and hubris, are all that is needed to make a thorough mess of things.

And Arjay, it should be obvious by now that your 9/11 fantasies are yesterday's news. The world has moved on. It never passed the "ok, so how did it all come together" test anyway, so do yourself a favour and drop it.

Pericles you sometimes write errant nonsense and this is a classic example.Libya has a lot of wealth but owned by a few.Much of the unrest is USA/Israel inspired.They don't have all those think tanks working for nothing.They are causing unrest in oil rich countries to set up their own puppet despot for control of oil.Zimbabwe needed saving 20yrs ago but forgot to find oil.We didn't give a rat's about East Timor until oil was found there.Afghanistan has $ trillions in lithium and the route for oil/gas piplines from Turkmenistan.

Then we have the present play for Iran which US weapons inspectors say Iran is of no threat.Israel has 200+ nukes but alas no inspectors.Robert Baer who Nick Caldis( deputy Commissioner for security and terrorism NSW) introduced to Ray Hadley says here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGsv9_ZxL8 Baer says Iran is of no threat and on here http://patriotsquestion911.com/ saying there evidence to Govt involvement in 911.Ray McGovern is on this site with other CIA asking for a new enquiry.Even Charlie Sheen is in there with 200+ people in the entertainment industry.

Its not yesterdays news.It is a festering sore of fascism that has enabled the Sedition Laws here,The Patriot Act,Preventative Dentention,and now Obama's prolonged Detention.The fascism is palpable and real as the false flag events of 911.John Pilger is 100% correct and so is rexw.

The elites have been seriously caught out and now are pushing for war as their escape from their own people.They will take us to the brink of extinction rather than face justice.

That was my point, Arjay.

>>Libya has a lot of wealth but owned by a few<<

And people get fed up with it, even without prompting from the Great Satan.

Incidentally, check out the latest Gaddafi video.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12605179

You two are starting to sound alike. Which is not a particularly Good Thing.

For either of you.

What a weird mechanical world you live in, Arjay, where everybody (except you, of course) is either a puppet or a puppeteer. Of course, now that I have written that, I have shown myself to be nothing more than a puppet myself.

Do you really think that the people in Arab countries (and Iran) just sit and wait to be switched on, or programmed, or whatever (i.e. puppets), by non-language-speaking CIA operatives (i.e. puppeteers), as if they can't think for themselves about their condition and the inequality of their societies ?

Have enough respect for people to consider the possibility that they may make up their own minds, come to their own decisions and, in Libya and other countries right now, resolve to die if necessary for justice for their fellow men. These people are making history - are you going to be just a blow-fly who buzzes around and irritates, or are you going to applaud and celebrate their historic achievements ?

No, they are not puppets, no more than I or you are, Arjay.

ARJAY
<Zimbawe needed help 20years ago.>

The problems in Zimbawee are due to incompetent black leaders, They fought for black rule against the minority white population in that country, justly so, but then having attained black leadership proceeded to indulge in tribal civil war. Mugabe and Joshua Nkomo from different tribal blood lines united to fight the British and then turned on each other for control of the country.

Nkomo said as each tribe carried out violent attacks of genocide against the other.

“We fought a war against this (against the British) and now we do the same why, why?"

As I said above, what Pilger and the old hippies fail to acknowledge is that America and the British don’t have a copywrite on this sort of behaviour.

Mugabe also bulldozed the shanty houses of millions of black people living outside one of the main capitals ( I forget which now.) Imagine if the whites had done that, what an uproar and calls of aparthied and discrimination there would have been.

No, the problems in Zimbawe since the British conceded rule have been caused by the black leaders and population themselves so why can’t they fix it. Why is it now again the responsibility of the whites to save them. America and The West are not everybody’s nanny where they can run to when they stuff up and yet spit hate at the rest of the time.

CHERFUL,the real problem is debt created by the Global ruling banking cartels.Poor countries are not allowed to create new money to equal their increases in GDP.If they want new technology they have to borrow from Western Central Banksters that produce absolutely nothing of tangible worth.They are good at counterfeiting everyone else's currency.The USA Fed has created from nothing, $20 trillion in the last 2 yrs bailing out their mates and our banks,thus halving the value of the $ US.Much of this money went into propping up their worthless derivatives instead of liquidity for the real economy in the USA.Our banks by they way are in serious trouble.They have borrowed enormous sums from the US Fed

It is a total criminal scam.Bernanke,Bush,Soros and hundreds of others should be before a court of law facing crimes of fraud and mass murder.

Have a long hard look at the thousands of very high profile people on this site http://patriotsquestion911.com/ Ex Govt presidents also people like Vladmir Putin,hundreds of Professors etc.Why would they put their reputations on the line for a lie?

Live by the lie of denying oppression and you will surely perish by it!

ARJAY<the real problem is created by the Global Banking Cartels>

Well I don’t know too much about the mysterious world of the shady figures behind Global Banking Cartels, it’s a sure bet there’s a lot of
Manipulating going on there to protect some very wealthy hidden agendas.
So knowing not too much about it, I would have to agree with you that they wouldn’t be protecting too many interests except their own.

Is it solely Americans who run these banks though, given that Micheal Moore in his movie on 9/11 pointed out that the Bin Laden family, part of the billionaire Shiek royalty of Sudi Arabia, owns or has big shares in some American Banks. Does the money of Wealthy Chinese businessmen also end up in these global banks. Or the money of most of the billionaires in the world. I don’t really know the answer to this but most filthy rich people and global companies do seem to have their tentacles in every rich pie around the world. Therefore is it solely the Americans holding the poor countries down or just the wealthy of any ethnicity?
.

As for 9/11 what do you say about Osama Bin Laden boasting about masterminding this?
I saw the documentary on the conspiracy theory questions and heard experts speak. Experts and educated people are notorious for having differing views about things. There is a well known historian in New South Wales who denies that the extermination of the Jews ever happened.

I have read people denying the Japanese actually attacked Australia.
I have seen well respected intelligent people falling under the spell of cults.
People bawling their eyes out when the Pope passes by. They don't know the man. From what I see of the human race, there is a lot of dillusional thinking out there, even amongst so-called Intellectuals. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a lot of experts came out in favour of the 9/11 event being an American conspiracy. This is want normally happens when people find events profoundly shocking, they look for a more comforting explanation.

John Pilger should have figured out by now if you want to promote anti US propaganda, you should at least make it credible. His present analysis is bizarre, and more worthy of mirth than serious consideration. It could only appeal to those who have a nuerotic and compulsive need to display what they think is their intellectual and moral superiority.

Pilger's propaganda reminds me very much of the Red Chinese propaganda of the Korean War. The Chinese displayed to the world's press the "confessions" of shot down US Air Force pilots, one of which entitled "HOW MY CRUEL CAPITALIST MASTERS FORCED ME TO COMMIT INHUMAN GERM WARFARE ON PEACE LOVING SOCIALIST KOREAN PEOPLE."

One presumes that the reason that Pilger despises the US is because he actually believed that the "confessions" were true.

Cherful just view the evidence.There is no way that Bin laden and his troglodytes did 911.I've done my homework and met Richard Gage who initiated http://ae911truth.org/ Prof Steven Jones a physicist,Prof Niels Harritt whose team of 9 international scientists have proven the existance of nano-thermite in all 3 buildings.Dr Frank Legge by the way is the Australian member of this team and they are very conservative in their assertions.You can see their work here http://www.journalof911studies.com/

Arjay, you are pushing it uphill, you know.

>>There is no way that Bin laden and his troglodytes did 911.I've done my homework and met Richard Gage...<<

You have not "done your homework" at all. You have simply jumped on someone else's bandwagon, because it kinda sorta fits with your jaundiced view of the world.

Your guiding-light web site boasts of "1,452 verified architectural and engineering professionals and 11,386 other supporters"

As a percentage of the US population, that is almost a rounding error. Even as a percentage of the number of architects and engineers, it is tiny.

Let's be generous, and suggest that they represent 1% of their potential number. That's 99% who don't believe a word of it.

That 1% also compares with the 23% who believe that they have actually met a ghost. Or the 34% who believe in UFOs.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305277,00.html

And your 9/11 conspiracy nuts are only a twentieth as numerous, it would appear, as those who believe in witchcraft.

Which is odd in itself.

Because if you try to work out how, in your theory, the explosives were put in place, the explosion was timed to coincide with planes hitting the buildings, the sheer number of people that would need to have been involved, and the incredible level of secrecy that they have all been able to maintain, there can only be one conclusion.

That it was all done by witchcraft.

To add to what you are saying, Pericles, the bringing-down of the third building seems to me to be a problem for the conspiracy theorists - why line the building with explosives when no plane was supposed to fly into it ? Why bother blowing it up at all ?

I have no problem with the notion that the two 110-storey buildings pancaked and the ground perturbations caused by their falling, plus the sideways forces of thousands of tonnes falling on it, plus the sustained heat applied to the one side of the building, de-stabilised or weakened the integrity of the third building enough for it to collapse a few hours later.

The problem with seeing the US as the source of all evil, for all time, is that one cannot admit any exceptions: it must be guilty of everything. So everything that happens - the Indian Ocean tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, global warming, killer bees - must be the fault of the US.

Certainly, it is probably responsible for many dreadful coups and invasions and killings, but the lazy assumption that one has found the Secret Cause of Everything is bound to lead one into all sorts of twists and turns to confine all explanation to this One Big Solution.

The world is vastly more complex than this childish explanation can deal with.

Joe

Loudmouth WTC Building 7 was supposed to come down under the cover of the dust from the towers.For some reason the explosives failed to activate in their time schedule.Enron,FBI and the CIA were in that building.It would be very inconvenient if all this evidence of their shennigans were to surface.Building 7 came down for 3 seconds in absolute freefall.This means that the component parts of this building provided absolutely no resistance to gravity which is a physical,scientific impossibility.Even the buildings in Christchurch had evidence left of layered floors and often fell askew from the vertical.Both WTC 7 and the towers came down vertically leaving no evidence of layered floors and molten iron and nano thermite that burned for weeks later.What caused the steel to melt when aircraft fuel burns to less than half these temps?

We've been there before many times Pericles and you still refuse to view the evidence and make a real attempt to debunk the scientific facts.This is not like climate science with thousands of variables.It is forensic science with little margin for error.Ad hominem does not make a rebuttal.

On the contrary, Arjay, I have read every scrap of evidence you have presented.

>>We've been there before many times Pericles and you still refuse to view the evidence and make a real attempt to debunk the scientific facts<<

The "scientific facts" you refer to are all circumstantial, and open to wide interpretation. As such, they need no "debunking", because they have no credibility to begin with. Which is of course why no-one is taking a blind bit of notice, outside your small - but admittedly, noisy - fellow conspiracy addicts.

Never - not once - have you actually provided a cogent explanation of how these circumstances were brought together by "Enron,FBI and the CIA". Or why. You mutter on about global cabals of banksters and the like, but that's as far as it goes.

It has been nearly ten years, and there still isn't a smidgin of real evidence. Just a few half-baked theories that don't hang together. You always fall at the fence that says "Ok, smartarse. How did they plant the explosives in the first place?"

You have no answer, because there is no answer. Just waffle.

Arjay,

Why do you keep asserting that the iron 'melted' ? Says who ? I'm no engineer but I know enough to be suspicious that the mass above where the planes hit (do you deny that planes flew into the two main buildings ? or is that all just video tricks ? Sorry for giving you ideas) would be enough at the weakened points to destroy the integrity of the structural components so that the buildings would collapse.

Heated steel does not have to be a melting point before its strength and integrity is compromised: ask any honest engineer. And these buildings weigh, what ? a thousand tonnes per storey/floor ? The steel supports are tested to withstand, what ? a few thousand tonnes of pressure ?

After all, the buildings were constructed back in the early 1970s in such a way that they could support a very tall structure with relatively little mass. So what's the problem ? Why assume some cock-eyed theory about CIA-planted explosives ? how many tonnes of them ? How many people secretly wiring up those buildings, while people worked around them 24/7 ?

Move on, Arjay. The rest of us have.

Loudmaouth,The Manhatton Project involved 130,000people.They compartmentalise groups and work a need to know basis so very few have the big picture.They were carrying out a terrorist attack scenario right at the time of 911 so all involved would think is was just an exercise.NORAD was stood down for 2n hrs.Those planes would have been incepted and shot down mormally within 10-20 minutes.

Never before in history has one black box gone missing.They are almost indestructable.4 black boxes went missing in one day.Never before of since have these types of buildings been destroyed by fire.Buildings of steel and concrete have burned for 24 hrs and not looked like collapsing.On the stock exchange we see hundreds of put options on United Airlines.They were 25 times that of normal.Then we have Larry Silversten saying he had to "pull" Building 7.because it was too dangerous and there was soo much loss of life.What larry didn'd realise that WTC7 could not be wired for controlled demolition in a few hrs so he tried to changed his story.Lary made billions on his insurance scam.He owned WTC 7 and bought the Towers lease 6 weeks before 911.

When you control the media any thing is possible.The public are not that smart.

The problem with your theories, Arjay, is that you insist on only seeing what you want to see.

>>The Manhatton Project involved 130,000people.<<

The fact that the US/Britain/Canada were working together on the production of a nuclear bomb was well known, even in Germany and Russia. Just as the Allies knew about the projects in Germany and Japan.

Nevertheless, the contractors had a pretty good idea of what they were working on. And talked about their involvement afterwards. Unlike any of your explosives-setters.

>>They were carrying out a terrorist attack scenario right at the time of 911<<

Not so. Unless you consider "sometime in the previous ten years" to equate to "right at the time".

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/04/19/norad.exercise/

>>NORAD was stood down for 2n hrs.Those planes would have been incepted and shot down mormally within 10-20 minutes.<<

Not so. NORAD was active the whole time. The simple fact was that there was no alert from the FAA to NORAD until after the third plane had crashed. And the hijackers had turned off the transponder, so the chances in that scenario - not knowing the threat existed, and then not knowing where they were - of an intercept in "10-20 minutes" is laughable.

>>4 black boxes went missing in one day.<<

Not so. Much of the information they contained - including flight path studies - is freely available. Try the National Security Archive on the George Washington University website, gwu.edu

>>Buildings of steel and concrete have burned for 24 hrs and not looked like collapsing.<<

Perhaps. None was hit by a plane fully loaded with aviation spirit, though.

>>On the stock exchange we see hundreds of put options on United Airlines<<

That one's so whiskery, it even has its own Snopes entry.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

>>Then we have Larry Silversten saying he had to "pull" Building 7.because it was too dangerous...<<

I rather like skepticblog's analysis of this.

http://skepticblog.org/2009/01/15/pull-it-the-best-911-evidence/

This is "all you've got", isn't it Arjay.

Which is the reason why no-one is going to set up another enquiry. It would be a comedy show.

Well Pericles we can only assume that NORAD were totally confused by the identical terrorist scenario being carried out on that day.The fact is,they failed to respond within the times they normaly do.

You have failed to address the hundreds of anomolies of 911 and even your cherry picking has left you wanting in the credibilty stakes.

Normal fires nor gravity cannot pulverise concrete into dust nor melt steel.

The elites are running scared and now seek war as the escape from their own people.They are ramping up the hatred twards the Muslims.No one wins a nuclear war.

Well, Arjay, I can only assume that you are referring to an entirely different NORAD.

>>Well Pericles we can only assume that NORAD were totally confused by the identical terrorist scenario being carried out on that day.The fact is,they failed to respond within the times they normaly do.<<

As you well know - or you should have found out by now - there was no "identical terrorist scenario being carried out on that day". There had been, at some point in the previous ten years, an exercise that was based on the hijacking of an aircraft as it entered US airspace. So i) it wasn't identical and ii) it wasn't being carried out on that day.

And to "respond within the times they normaly do" would require that i) someone alerted them to the anomalies, ii) someone alerted them to the fact that the transponders on the planes were inactive and iii) their operatives could distinguish the aberrant planes from the 3,500 radar images available to them.

Which part of all that confuses you?

>>You have failed to address the hundreds of anomolies of 911<<

I have addressed each one as you have presented them. And not one has survived scrutiny.

Not one.

>>Normal fires nor gravity cannot pulverise concrete into dust nor melt steel.<<

Fires of the nature witnessed on 9/11 did not need to "melt" steel in order to cause the collapse of the buildings, and were certainly fierce enough to weaken it, as Loudmouth pointed out.

And gravity sure can pulverise concrete. And some.

>>The elites are running scared and now seek war as the escape from their own people.They are ramping up the hatred twards the Muslims.No one wins a nuclear war.<<

At least you are using the same level of facts and logic for all your arguments, not just 9/11, I have to give you that.

Enough already guys. You're all totally off-topic now. This is supposed to be about Pilgers article not 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Interesting logic, Arjay:

1. If not-A [i.e. al Qaida involvement in 9/11], then B [i.e. US, specifically CIA, responsibility for 9/11].

2. A could not possibly be [there is no al Qaida, so keep talking about 'melting', explosives, third building].

3. Therefore B.

4. If B, then C [hatred of Muslims, i.e. of non-existent al Qaida]

5. If C, then D [threat of nuclear war]

6. If D, then E [diversionary threats of nuclear war as evidence of the US government's fear of, attempt to escape from, their own people]

6. So if not-A, then B, then C, then D, then E.

7. Could not possibly be A, therefore E.

Meanwhile, in parts of the real world, specifically the Middle East and Africa [including sub-Saharan Africa], the people - Muslims included - are showing the rest of the world how to organise for human rights and democracy.

I suspect that the non-existent al Qaida is going to be bitterly disappointed with many of the outcomes.

And - it's a weird world ! - so will sections of the Left.

Wouldn't be dead for quids !

Joe

You're right, Phil.

Pilger is a prolific writer, so I'm sure we can expect to read his take on the Middle East uprisings shortly. Give him time: he has to find some way to insert US responsibility for all evil, and opposition to all good, in his exposition.

It's always about the US. If they step out of line in the slightest - no intervention, not enough intervention, too much intervention - he'll be onto them like a shot.



Joe